SoCal Soccer Attitude Change

Watched the USA / Swiss game. US player called offside. If not called had a break away. In the replay she was about 1 yard onside. AR was about 2 yards behind the play. If these referees make mistakes, club referees are going to make mistakes. I'll take a referee that keeps play going, no one gets hurt, and each team gets about the same good and bad calls. Always had trouble with Umpires when the daughter was still playing baseball and softball. It would be 2 feet outside and they would call it a strike. Your 9 year old then swings at a ball that far out and strikes out because of the last pitch. She bats twice. Great fun. :(
 
socalkdg said:
Watched the USA / Swiss game. US player called offside. If not called had a break away. In the replay she was about 1 yard onside. AR was about 2 yards behind the play. If these referees make mistakes, club referees are going to make mistakes. I'll take a referee that keeps play going, no one gets hurt, and each team gets about the same good and bad calls. Always had trouble with Umpires when the daughter was still playing baseball and softball. It would be 2 feet outside and they would call it a strike. Your 9 year old then swings at a ball that far out and strikes out because of the last pitch. She bats twice. Great fun. :(
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Let me spell it out for you, as you seem to have trouble understanding what some of us are saying. I haven't seen a single person who advocates ref abuse. Most of refs' mistakes are understandable, even on simple things like game lengths or reentry, because they work games of different age groups. And because their breaks may not be long. Why then are some of parents' mistakes like "Handball!" so intolerable? When refs stop games because they can't handle things of that nature, they waste everyone's time. They waste time of those of uswho haven't said a single word. Most importantly, they stop the flow of the game for the kids for trivial stuff a normal person should be able to hand. Do you close the highway because of a fender bender? A whistle shouldn't give a ref an egg shell psyche.
 
The passage below is from the Cal South Code of Conduct, clubs and leagues have similar statements. In many cases parents sign an agreement with their clubs agreeing to abide by these codes of conduct when joining the club. This statement is crystal clear and it's in the best interest of everyone that this Code of Conduct be followed.

Parents and Spectators


The parents' role is one of support to the players and coaches. Parents should not engage in

"coaching" from the sidelines, criticizing players, coaches or game officials or trying to influence

the makeup of the team at any time. Every parent and spectator is expected to:

• Learn and respect the rules of soccer and the rules of the CYSA-South.

• Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.

• Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from


addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.

• Cheer for your child's team in a positive manner, refraining at all times from making


negative or abusive remarks about the opposing team. Maintain control of your emotions

and avoid actions, language, and/or gestures that may be interpreted as hostile and

humiliating.

• Ensure that your child is at all games and practices at the required time or provide the


coach with an appropriate excuse beforehand.

• Demonstrate appropriate gestures of sportsmanship at the conclusion of a game, win or


lose.

• Teach and practice good sportsmanship and fair play by personally demonstrating


commitment to these virtues.

• Promote the concept that soccer is merely a game, and that players and coaches on


other teams are opponents, not enemies.
 
I think one of the problems is that there are not enough experienced referees (10+ years of experience) to match up with the higher level games (U15 and above) which means the lower level/younger games get the inexperienced refs. Most of these U15 and above games have spectators/parents that have been involved with soccer for a number of years and rarely yell at the referee. If the more experienced referees are assigned primarily to these U15 and above, then the U14 and below games get the less experienced or new referees that are more likely to make mistakes and get yelled at by the spectators. Some of these inexperienced referees have not learned how to deal with the loud spectator other than warn them then remove them. No one likes to get yelled at. Most experienced referees know to just ignore the comments unless it somehow interferes with play such as players repeating the comments of the spectators.
 
Laced said:
Let me spell it out for you, as you seem to have trouble understanding what some of us are saying. I haven't seen a single person who advocates ref abuse. Most of refs' mistakes are understandable, even on simple things like game lengths or reentry, because they work games of different age groups. And because their breaks may not be long. Why then are some of parents' mistakes like "Handball!" so intolerable? When refs stop games because they can't handle things of that nature, they waste everyone's time. They waste time of those of uswho haven't said a single word. Most importantly, they stop the flow of the game for the kids for trivial stuff a normal person should be able to hand. Do you close the highway because of a fender bender? A whistle shouldn't give a ref an egg shell psyche.
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Your spelling is off. Use auto-correct next time. :) I'm saying the referees I've dealt with don't have a problem with a single word and do let the flow of the game continue. Sounds like you end up with a different type of referee. Here is the real question, when the referee comes to the sideline and tells the parents to quiet down, do they say ok, or argue back? I've found being polite works well in this situation.
 
socalkdg said:
Your spelling is off. Use auto-correct next time. :) I'm saying the referees I've dealt with don't have a problem with a single word and do let the flow of the game continue. Sounds like you end up with a different type of referee. Here is the real question, when the referee comes to the sideline and tells the parents to quiet down, do they say ok, or argue back? I've found being polite works well in this situation.
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I don't know what works well in this situation but why does this situation have to come up at all? A parent has a warped perspective when their kid gets knocked down. It's irrational yet understandable. Refs on the other hand don't have their own kids on the field, and therefore they can be expected to be rational and act like adults. When they take parents' shouts personal, they're no longer the only rational adults in the game. That's why I believe refs can avoid situations like the one you described by dismissing those comments as what they are. Simply because you got heckled a few weekends ago 50 miles away doesn't mean you should lecture a different group of parents before the game. Simple because some parent shouts "Foul" doesn't mean he/she is challenging your competence. It means no more than that the parent has the silly idea he/she can be the 12th man and can "work" the refs.
 
Surfref said:
I think one of the problems is that there are not enough experienced referees (10+ years of experience) to match up with the higher level games (U15 and above) which means the lower level/younger games get the inexperienced refs. Most of these U15 and above games have spectators/parents that have been involved with soccer for a number of years and rarely yell at the referee. If the more experienced referees are assigned primarily to these U15 and above, then the U14 and below games get the less experienced or new referees that are more likely to make mistakes and get yelled at by the spectators. Some of these inexperienced referees have not learned how to deal with the loud spectator other than warn them then remove them. No one likes to get yelled at. Most experienced referees know to just ignore the comments unless it somehow interferes with play such as players repeating the comments of the spectators.
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I don't think refs' competence is the issue. Most of the refs do an adequate job. The issue is lack of a forgiving attitude toward others' reasonable mistakes. Refs can't get all the calls right yet some parents expect them to. Parents can't act rationally when their kids are on the field, yet some refs expect them to be quiet like they're watching an opera.
 
Threads like this are proof this forum was better off being shut down. Develop thick skin or don't ref. Better yet, if you never played then don't bother becoming a ref. Yes I'm talking to YOU. We already have way too many uneducated, incompetent refs in this country. Most of them, like these big mouth parents who think their kid is Gods gift to the game, should just stay home. The game doesn't need YOU. Moreover, YOU (and your sense of entitlement) are the reason why this game can't evolve in this country.

Have a nice day!wicked1
 
Laced said:
I don't think refs' competence is the issue. Most of the refs do an adequate job. The issue is lack of a forgiving attitude toward others' reasonable mistakes. Refs can't get all the calls right yet some parents expect them to. Parents can't act rationally when their kids are on the field, yet some refs expect them to be quiet like they're watching an opera.
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This is in reference to youth games with spectators sitting on the sidelines. Spectators sitting the bleachers/stands of a stadium are usually too far away for me to understand what they are saying. I expect spectators to cheer for their team and say something when they think I missed a call or made a bad call. I expect to get yelled at every time I make a foul call or not make a call. Someone will disagree with every call I make or don't make, even if it is obvious I made the correct decision. I am okay with that. The majority (99 percent) of spectators will yell one maybe two comments then drop it. The problem occurs when those 1 percent of spectators continuously yell at me. My primary threshold is when I have players either repeat what the spectator is saying or the spectator starts directing comments at the players from the other team. That is when I address the issue with the coach. Most coaches already know the problem parents. A good coach will shut that parent up before I even have to stop the game and talk to the coach. When I have to talk to the coach about a spectator it is the ultimatum talk. "Coach, am I really going to have to remove you from the game or are you going to take care of the guy in the red shirt?" Remember coaches are responsible for their spectators. At that point most coaches will tell the spectator to leave. This works well for both the coach and I, since the coach removed the spectator I do not have to write a report and the coach can use me as the bad guy that got rid of the spectator. I have had many coaches thank me for asking them to take care of a spectator because that spectator usually also annoys the crap out of the coach.

As a referee, I have to adjust how I call a game based on how the players are playing and their comments toward me. As spectators, you need to adjust the comments you make toward the referee by what they will allow. If a referee says no more comments or talks to the coach about the spectators, than keep your mouth shut. If you poke a rattlesnake with a stick, they will strike. If you annoy the referee, they will send you to your car. Just be smart about what you say, how you say it, how often you say it and how loud you say it. If you do that, most referees will not have a problem with your comments. Yes, I have seen referees remove spectators for just one comment. These are usually newer and less experienced referees.
 
Surfref said:
If you annoy the referee, they will send you to your car.
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This is exactly where we disagree. We don't disagree with regard to abusive sideline behavior. You have the authority to eject parents for abusive comments but not annoying comments. What annoys you annoys the rest of us too, but the rules protect you from abuse but they don't protect your sensitivities. When you stop a game just because a comment annoys you, you're overstepping your authority, just like a cop who closes down a freeway for one driver's minor infraction.
 
Laced said:
This is exactly where we disagree. We don't disagree with regard to abusive sideline behavior. You have the authority to eject parents for abusive comments but not annoying comments. What annoys you annoys the rest of us too, but the rules protect you from abuse but they don't protect your sensitivities. When you stop a game just because a comment annoys you, you're overstepping your authority, just like a cop who closes down a freeway for one driver's minor infraction.
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Since you want to play word games, let me change the wording for you. "If you do not respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner, you will be sent to the parking lot." That wording was taken straight out of the Cal South Ethics for parents and spectators. Cal South gives me the authority to not only have a spectator removed for abusive comments, but for just questioning my decisions or making loud or disrespectful comments. If a comment annoys me, it is because I felt that it was disrespectful. And, I do have the authority to remove spectators from youth games if I feel their comments are disrespectful (annoying).
 
Our 'club' model is flawed. 99% of 'club' play is at a rec level, if all involved would understand this it would be better. Relax.
 
We all understand that the league, cal south, tournament etc has given you the authority....it just seems that some consistency needs to happen within the ref community. One team will rarely call anything, ignore spectator comments, and let them play. The next bunch is hyper sensitve to every peep from the sidelines, calls every contact a foul, and would prefer to have no spectators at all. Respect is earned by being professional, competent, and calling a good game, not something that should be mandated by the controlling agency. That type of respect is never genuine and doesn't work, hence the crazy parents and coaches.
 
wildcat66 said:
That type of respect is never genuine and doesn't work, hence the crazy parents and coaches.
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Friend of mine, whenever we catch up on how our kids' teams are doing, always tells me how his son's 13U team gets screwed by the referees ("as usual"). He fails to recognize that his coach is a jerk to other coaches and to referees, spends most games complaining, and that their parent sidelines are quick to yell and holler about fouls, non-fouls, and everything else that occurs during the game (no coach control). So which respect needs to comes first?
 
Surfref said:
Since you want to play word games, let me change the wording for you. "If you do not respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner, you will be sent to the parking lot." That wording was taken straight out of the Cal South Ethics for parents and spectators. Cal South gives me the authority to not only have a spectator removed for abusive comments, but for just questioning my decisions or making loud or disrespectful comments. If a comment annoys me, it is because I felt that it was disrespectful. And, I do have the authority to remove spectators from youth games if I feel their comments are disrespectful (annoying).
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The difference between "annoying" and "abusive" is just a word game to you? That may explain why you misread portions of LOTG
 
Just to make it a little easier for some here - From Cal-South Code of conduct:

• Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.
• Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from
addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.
 
SCS Fan said:
Just to make it a little easier for some here - From Cal-South Code of conduct:

• Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.
• Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from
addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.
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What you're citing is irrelevant as nobody is disputing that abusers should be ejected. Likewise, it's irrelevant that it's a ref's responsibility to check a player against the picture on the player card yet it's not properly done half of the time. Or a ref didn't know game lengths or reentry rules. The issue is how we deal with others mistakes.
 
As I posted in another thread, it dawned on me why I wasn't getting my point across that abusers should be removed but referees shouldn't interrupt the game just to issue warnings. "The flow of the game" is not fully appreciated by most people who didn't grow up playing the game. The refs on this thread probably feel that it's better to stop the game and warn a few loud parents before things get out of hand. The tradition of soccer is that you just don't stop games except when it's absolutely necessary.
 
Laced, I think you would make a great referee and I encourage you to take your passion on these issues one step further and get certified. I understand personal situations sometimes seem to not afford time to be a referee but once certified you can pick and choose when and where to do games. You might be surprised by the sense of self-accomplishment you get by properly calling a match and it's a great way to give back to the game. If you have a player in their teens you can go through the process together.
 
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