Two girls fighting what is everyone's responsibility?

baldref said:
again, especially with younger players, your referees, which may be very good at refereeing soccer, may not be experienced enough to deal with out of control teams, coaches or parents. it's not their fault if coach A thinks is OK for sally to kick jane. it's not their fault if sally's parents encourage her to beat on jane. they know the laws of the game and use them to the best of their abilities. if sally punches jane and they see it, then sally gets sent off. they can't stop sally from acting like a thug.
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The point which initiated this dialogue isn't that a ref can prevent it. It's that when the ref sees the infraction they should enforce the laws while often times games spin out of control if a ref chooses to ignore the initial more minor infractions rather than set his or her authority up front. If a ref ignores the infraction it only encourages those certain coaches and players to push the envelope further and the other side to retaliate.
 
Grace T. said:
The point which initiated this dialogue isn't that a ref can prevent it. It's that when the ref sees the infraction they should enforce the laws while often times games spin out of control if a ref chooses to ignore the initial more minor infractions rather than set his or her authority up front. If a ref ignores the infraction it only encourages those certain coaches and players to push the envelope further and the other side to retaliate.
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and when the ref calls every single little foul, it ruins the game and the coaches and parents bitch about that too. your blame is misguided, except in very, very, very, few situations. and in those situations that do exist, where the referee isn't "up to snuff" so to speak, that's when the parent or the coach steps in and tells their kid to knock the crap off.
 
baldref said:
then you're not the problem nor is your daughter. but i have seen the thugs, although i would rather not have. i guess i've just seen more games than you have.
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Do you yellow card them when they start to get out of hand? Pushing girls onto the ground when they aren't near the ball, kicking them in the back of legs to knock them down? Elbows to the face?
 
Of course referees have a responsibility to manage the game, and try to keep things cool using the limited tools that they have. Its stupid to suggest, however, that fights and violent play is usually caused by the referee.

If the referee cannot stop the fight with the whistle, the next best thing is the coaches. Almost every big melee results from one thing: parents that enter the field.

In most of these situations, there are common symptoms: parents and coaches that put up with dirty play by their kids and players; the thug mentality passed down by parents who are no strangers to fights themselves; general low-class behavior, and people whose self-worth is wound up in whether Ricardo or Katelyn win their game.
 
So once the girls are fighting, who breaks up the girls. The Coaches, the Refs, or just the center referee? What about the AR? but not the parents, correct?
 
socalkdg said:
Do you yellow card them when they start to get out of hand?
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do i personally? a yellow card is one tool that can be used to control behavior in a game. with younger players, most of the time some stern language and the fact that you let them know you're watching is going to be enough..... for me that is. I'm a large old man, sort of intimidating without trying. if that doesn't get their attention, than yes, a card can be effective, but not always. i don't do many youngers anymore, because i have enough experience to do the older games, and that's where the experienced referees are needed more.
 
socalkdg said:
So once the girls are fighting, who breaks up the girls. The Coaches, the Refs, or just the center referee? What about the AR? but not the parents, correct?
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that's a good question. depends on the circumstances. but i have learned over the years, even well intention-ed touching of a player can be a bad thing.
 
baldref said:
do i personally? a yellow card is one tool that can be used to control behavior in a game. with younger players, most of the time some stern language and the fact that you let them know you're watching is going to be enough..... for me that is. I'm a large old man, sort of intimidating without trying. if that doesn't get their attention, than yes, a card can be effective, but not always. i don't do many youngers anymore, because i have enough experience to do the older games, and that's where the experienced referees are needed more.
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First of all, thank you for being a referee - I realize that it can be a thankless job much of the time, but there are those of us that do realize the game at the youth level can't survive without you.

I will try to do my best not to offend you - but my opinion on this discussion is pretty solid and I can't see anyone being able to sway me to the other side.

I am a firm believer that the referee and the referee alone is responsible for the way in which a match is played. Yes, I realize that managers, players and parents all play a role, but in the end, the referee has all the power to change a match before it gets out of hand. Now, there might need to be a conversation about whether or not many referees can recognize a game getting out of hand, especially if they have never played, but lets's leave that conversation for another day.

If you don't mind - I have a few questions. I would really appreciate it if you could shed some light on your thoughts.
1) Do you call a U11 game any differently than you do a U17 game? If so, how?
2) Do you use the same criteria for a caution and a sending off in the younger age groups as you do the older age groups?
3) How often do you find yourself bringing both captains in for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction? What about your fellow referees?
4) How many times do you bring both coaches together for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction?

Hopefully, I can better understand where a ref is coming from based on your response.
 
baldref said:
and when the ref calls every single little foul, it ruins the game and the coaches and parents bitch about that too. your blame is misguided, except in very, very, very, few situations. and in those situations that do exist, where the referee isn't "up to snuff" so to speak, that's when the parent or the coach steps in and tells their kid to knock the crap off.
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Sounds like you have a problem with the laws then. It's why we have the rules. They say what can and can't happen on the pitch. And we aren't talking about little de minimis violations, or violations to which advantage isn't put, or acts which aren't careless, reckless or use excessive force. It's your job to enforce the rules, not rewrite them. And no one is blaming the refs for the misconduct. We blame the refs for losing control of the game.
 
baldref said:
do i personally? a yellow card is one tool that can be used to control behavior in a game. with younger players, most of the time some stern language and the fact that you let them know you're watching is going to be enough..... for me that is. I'm a large old man, sort of intimidating without trying. if that doesn't get their attention, than yes, a card can be effective, but not always. i don't do many youngers anymore, because i have enough experience to do the older games, and that's where the experienced referees are needed more.
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I think that u-littles need experienced referees more than u-olders. How is inexperienced referee suppose to control sideline behavior of parents who have no clue about LOTG or coaches out of control? I've seen a lot more problems at u-little games lately because of inexperienced referees. They are trying but just don't know how to deal with all of it yet.
On the other hand there are plenty of experienced refs who is way past keeping up with older games, but still doing it simply because of better pay. Assignors should do a better job recognizing who should be doing which games and we would have less issues at either games.
 
The Driver said:
with all due respect. Don't call u Littles thugs
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sure. how about ""undisciplined misbehaving violent delinquents"?
kidding kind of...... my intent is to say that there are players, even little girls, who have been taught not to respect other players, and that a elbow to the ribs or kick in the calf, is something to be proud of.
 
baldref said:
sure. how about ""undisciplined misbehaving violent delinquents"?
kidding kind of...... my intent is to say that there are players, even little girls, who have been taught not to respect other players, and that a elbow to the ribs or kick in the calf, is something to be proud of.
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They call some refs fat slobs who don't leave the circle
 
texanincali said:
First of all, thank you for being a referee - I realize that it can be a thankless job much of the time, but there are those of us that do realize the game at the youth level can't survive without you.

I will try to do my best not to offend you - but my opinion on this discussion is pretty solid and I can't see anyone being able to sway me to the other side.

I am a firm believer that the referee and the referee alone is responsible for the way in which a match is played. Yes, I realize that managers, players and parents all play a role, but in the end, the referee has all the power to change a match before it gets out of hand. Now, there might need to be a conversation about whether or not many referees can recognize a game getting out of hand, especially if they have never played, but lets's leave that conversation for another day.

If you don't mind - I have a few questions. I would really appreciate it if you could shed some light on your thoughts.
1) Do you call a U11 game any differently than you do a U17 game? If so, how?
2) Do you use the same criteria for a caution and a sending off in the younger age groups as you do the older age groups?
3) How often do you find yourself bringing both captains in for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction? What about your fellow referees?
4) How many times do you bring both coaches together for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction?

Hopefully, I can better understand where a ref is coming from based on your response.
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i disagree with you.

If you don't mind - I have a few questions. I would really appreciate it if you could shed some light on your thoughts.
1) Do you call a U11 game any differently than you do a U17 game? If so, how? yes. they are different so they need to be officiated different. too many differences to list.
2) Do you use the same criteria for a caution and a sending off in the younger age groups as you do the older age groups? yes, and no. depends on what type of caution you're talking about.
3) How often do you find yourself bringing both captains in for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction? What about your fellow referees? used to be more common. now, the captain is more of a figure head on a team that calls the coin toss, and not the true leader of the team.
4) How many times do you bring both coaches together for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction? never. coaches either get it or they don't. if they get it, they don't need me to tell them to reel in their players. if they don't get it, they won't listen anyway.
 
coachrefparent said:
Of course referees have a responsibility to manage the game, and try to keep things cool using the limited tools that they have. Its stupid to suggest, however, that fights and violent play is usually caused by the referee.

If the referee cannot stop the fight with the whistle, the next best thing is the coaches. Almost every big melee results from one thing: parents that enter the field.

In most of these situations, there are common symptoms: parents and coaches that put up with dirty play by their kids and players; the thug mentality passed down by parents who are no strangers to fights themselves; general low-class behavior, and people whose self-worth is wound up in whether Ricardo or Katelyn win their game.
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If I'm mistaken, I apologize in advance but this sounds a little bit classist. I can tell you my DYS's team has played against poor largely Latino teams from the barrio and white/Asian teams from rich neighborhoods. Never had any problem with the Latino or poor teams...they were the most brilliant of the passers and played true possession soccer. The team my DYS had an issue with was a largely white, uppermiddle class team from a swanky neighborhood. Winning at any cost is a mentality that can happen in either poor or rich neighborhoods.
 
Eagle33 said:
I think that u-littles need experienced referees more than u-olders. How is inexperienced referee suppose to control sideline behavior of parents who have no clue about LOTG or coaches out of control? I've seen a lot more problems at u-little games lately because of inexperienced referees. They are trying but just don't know how to deal with all of it yet.
On the other hand there are plenty of experienced refs who is way past keeping up with older games, but still doing it simply because of better pay. Assignors should do a better job recognizing who should be doing which games and we would have less issues at either games.
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this may be true in a way. there just aren't enough. i would also like to see some of the guys who have lost a lot of steps, go back down and do the younger games. they can't keep up with the olders, and they have the chops to deal with many of the issues we are discussing
 
baldref said:
sure. how about ""undisciplined misbehaving violent delinquents"?
kidding kind of...... my intent is to say that there are players, even little girls, who have been taught not to respect other players, and that a elbow to the ribs or kick in the calf, is something to be proud of.
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Thank you for your response in the previous post - much appreciated.

Seeing as you disagree, I am curious as to why that is. You actually bring up perfect examples in the post above. When you have witnessed an elbow to the ribs (deliberate) or a kick to the calf (deliberate) in "little girls" soccer, did you send the off straight away? If not, what did you do?
 
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