Two girls fighting what is everyone's responsibility?

Carpediem said:
Somebody above referenced "Self defense". What is the protocol there? Federally everybody has the right to defend themselves so if there is a case , and we have all seen it, where a player does throw a cheap shot, elbow or strike, and the ref is clearly not in that area to protect the opposing player (technically then a victim)...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves ? Without getting penalized by the league.
Curious if this has ever occured or been an issue. I'm a big fan of the underdog and love to see bullies get their own when they pick on the wrong person.
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Not sure where you are going here. You ask if a player can defend themselves, then you suggest that the player "gets their own" from the other player with no penalty . Referees do not apply Federal law, and it's wholly inapplicable here (as is State law, etc.)

There is no provision for self defense in the LOTG, nor any stand your ground rule. If I felt a player was defending themselves after retreating, there would be no foul. If your definition of self defense is the reciving player getting a cheap shot back, or any other such retaliation, its a foul and likely send off. Pretty simple.
 
socalkdg said:
@baldref and @Surfref

While I understand you didn't see the exact situation that occurred, do you think you would have kept the altercation from occurring? How much physical play do you allow away from the ball? It would seem that pushing, shoving, kicking and elbows shouldn't happen when the ball is on the other side of the field from where these players are? Should an AR alert you to what is going on since your back may be to these players?

Lastly, if the fight did start between two players, what would you have done? Let them fight, tell them to stop? get in between them? Would either have received yellow or red cards?
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Unless there is a set play (free kick, corner kick, goal kick, throw-in) there is really no reason for physical play off the ball. Any shenanigans off the ball and far away from active play will usually be caught by the AR. A good AR will use their voice to defuse those types of situations. Anything more serious off the ball such as Kicking, shoving (actually a pushing foul or possibly striking foul), elbowing with force (striking foul) should all be dealt with either right away or at the next stoppage. A good AR will assess the severity of the situation, signal the CR, discuss the incident and allow the CR to address it. The referee crew also must trust each other. Baldref (CR) and I (AR) were working an older girls game several years ago. After the ball was played up field a larger defender grabbed the other teams forward with both hands a forcefully threw her to the ground. I signaled Baldy, he stopped the game, I told him what happened, and he ejected the defender.

If two girls got into a fight, I would sprint to the area. I would blow the whistle as loud as possible within a couple yards of the players and in a stern authoritative voice tell them to stop. The loud shrill whistle does a great job of getting everyone's attention and getting them refocused. If their teammates are pulling them off each other, than I will step between them once they are several yards alert. I would never try to step between them if they are close together. That is a good way for me to get punched. After they are separated and a good distance apart I will issue the initial two red cards if it was obvious both players were fighting (throwing punches, slapping, grabbing, kicking, etc.). I will always consult with my AR's to see if they saw something I did not. I have had fights between two players where I only give one red card and the other player a Yellow or nothing. I had a girls fight a few years ago where it was actually videotaped that one player was clearly the aggressor and the other player was just trying to defend herself. My AR verified what I thought I had seen.

I have also had fight just happen in very calm games. I had an older girl sucker punch a girl from the other team 10 minutes into the game right in front of me and right next to the benches. The coaches quickly grabbed their player and pulled them apart. It turned out the one that threw the sucker punch had an suffered ankle injury that sidelined her for six months the last time the two teams played 18 months prior. The girl on the receiving end was the one that slid into the player and caused the ankle injury. One red card for the girl that threw the punch and the other continued to play. Girls never forget!
 
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Eagle33 said:
150% true statement
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I used to be skeptical when girls coaches told me about problems from past games or players that "didn't like each other." Some coaches will say things to try and influence the referee, so I don't always believe what they tell me unless I know them. Now I take those things serious and keep a closer eye on any specific player mentioned. I will also verify with the other coach. Most coaches will be honest and give me their side of the story. In the past I have even been told by both coaches that the two teams do not like each other. I address this with the players when I check them in and make sure they know I will not put up with any shenanigans. That usually works to defuse any thought of retribution. I recently had two coaches tell me their teams hated each other (coaches got along fine) so I addressed it with the players at check-in. It was one of the cleanest games I have worked in a couple years. I think boys games are much easier to referee because they usually don't hold grudges for years or decades like girls.
 
Deadpoolscores! said:
160? That's a tall girlo_O
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In the game I saw one defender was at least 5'10 and the other almost as tall, maybe 5'9, very big girls for the age group. And yes, the taller of the two was a solid, muscular 150-160! The strikers that went up against these two were maybe 5' and 5'3 and much smaller frames.
 
@baldref and @Surfref

Thanks to both of you for the lengthy answers. Really sounds like you both have great control of your games.

Based on everything you both said I believe the problem in our game was the AR on our side, who never let the CR know what was going on, let it continue, let the fight start on their side of the field, and didn't do anything once it started. Hopefully it will be a learning moment for them and games in the future will see an improvement on their part with regards to this.
 
socalkdg said:
@baldref and @Surfref

Thanks to both of you for the lengthy answers. Really sounds like you both have great control of your games.

Based on everything you both said I believe the problem in our game was the AR on our side, who never let the CR know what was going on, let it continue, let the fight start on their side of the field, and didn't do anything once it started. Hopefully it will be a learning moment for them and games in the future will see an improvement on their part with regards to this.
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that's how we learn. experiencing and making errors. however, fact is, even if he did make mistakes and mishandled his duties, the AR didn't cause the girls to brawl, and the responsibility is squarely on them for choosing to go that direction.
 
This is interesting thread from the point of the refs in here.

IMHO, I think the main responsibility of the ref is to keep the players safe. Everything else comes after this.

I think it is also interesting that the refs won't physically engage the players. I'm not sure how I feel about this, honestly. I see the point of not touching kids, because of all the issues that can come up.

Having done some refereeing in the AYSO, I would probably make an attempt to physically separate 2 actively fighting players. If one kid is pummeling another kid, do you just stand there watching (or blowing your whistle?!). I think there must be a line where you intervene for the safety of players. But probably 99% of fights end quickly without you having to jump in there.

If you look at NFL, NBA games-- those refs will get between players and touch fighting players. Now, these are adults, so maybe that is a difference. But I don't think I could just watch 2 kids fighting without doing something beyond blowing a whistle.
 
zebrafish said:
This is interesting thread from the point of the refs in here.

IMHO, I think the main responsibility of the ref is to keep the players safe. Everything else comes after this.

I think it is also interesting that the refs won't physically engage the players. I'm not sure how I feel about this, honestly. I see the point of not touching kids, because of all the issues that can come up.

Having done some refereeing in the AYSO, I would probably make an attempt to physically separate 2 actively fighting players. If one kid is pummeling another kid, do you just stand there watching (or blowing your whistle?!). I think there must be a line where you intervene for the safety of players. But probably 99% of fights end quickly without you having to jump in there.

If you look at NFL, NBA games-- those refs will get between players and touch fighting players. Now, these are adults, so maybe that is a difference. But I don't think I could just watch 2 kids fighting without doing something beyond blowing a whistle.
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Years ago, I was doing a lower level U15 boys game. the worst games for testosterone driven crap. One young man took exception to a challenge, a fai8r challenge, and started going after the challenger. I was, as I often am, right on top of it. I was within arms distance of the player, who was going to go smack the other player upside the head. I knew it. I could tell. I gra1bbed him by the shoulder. Not violently, not forcefully, just enough to stop him from getting to the other player.

After the game......... Mom comes after me. You touched my boy! Goes to my association. Goes to Cal South. I acted in a way that protected both players, but... I touched the boy. I was not disciplined, but i was told in no uncertain terms:

DO NOT TOUCH PLAYERS


So, other than a friendly touch on the shoulder in conversation, or a tap on the back when a sub is going into a game, I don't touch players. It's just the way it is.
 
zebrafish said:
This is interesting thread from the point of the refs in here.

IMHO, I think the main responsibility of the ref is to keep the players safe. Everything else comes after this.

I think it is also interesting that the refs won't physically engage the players. I'm not sure how I feel about this, honestly. I see the point of not touching kids, because of all the issues that can come up.

Having done some refereeing in the AYSO, I would probably make an attempt to physically separate 2 actively fighting players. If one kid is pummeling another kid, do you just stand there watching (or blowing your whistle?!). I think there must be a line where you intervene for the safety of players. But probably 99% of fights end quickly without you having to jump in there.

If you look at NFL, NBA games-- those refs will get between players and touch fighting players. Now, these are adults, so maybe that is a difference. But I don't think I could just watch 2 kids fighting without doing something beyond blowing a whistle.
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As a referee, never ever touch a youth player except to shake their hand after the game. NFL, NBA, NHL are adult games and completely different
 
So Ref can't touch the players, parents can't come on the field. Does this mean the coaches have to separate the girls if they are smacking each other upside the head?
 
socalkdg said:
So Ref can't touch the players, parents can't come on the field. Does this mean the coaches have to separate the girls if they are smacking each other upside the head?
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In one of my games on Saturday, G2000, two girls started attempted to slap each other but didn't connect. Their teammates had them pulled apart immediately. The teammates knew that had the altercation continued that the players would be ejected. CR cautioned (yellow card) and talked to both girls. Game resumed with no further problems.

Teammates are usually closer than coaches and the majority of the time will pull their player away from an altercation.
 
Surfref said:
Teammates are usually closer than coaches and the majority of the time will pull their player away from an altercation.
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I'm fortunate in that I've only had a handful of fights in my 39 years and each time it was teammates that intervened with their player to break things up before things got too complicated.
 
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