What is too aggressive?

[rainbow_unicorn]

From the teams that your DD has played what team is the most physical of them?

Last year, the only physical team was CDA Slammers...the pulling and pushing was glaringly obvious since most 2009 girls last year barely had enough body control to stay on their feet. This year they have toned it down but it does seem like every other team has learned how to play more physical...so the pulling and pushing does not seem so out of the ordinary now.

 

[KONI]

From the teams that your DD has played what team is the most physical of them?

Cda slammers, Newport slammers, blues, and Liverpool are all physical

 

[coachrefparent]

Last year, the only physical team was CDA Slammers...the pulling and pushing was glaringly obvious since most 2009 girls last year barely had enough body control to stay on their feet. This year they have toned it down but it does seem like every other team has learned how to play more physical...so the pulling and pushing does not seem so out of the ordinary now.

2009, last year (2016). 6-7 year olds?
Fouls?
Make-up calls?
6-7 year olds?
"As a ref, shouldn't you call a foul as a foul regardless of what outcome it may have on the game or whether it may cause harm?"
6-7 year olds?
"The important thing to remember is that all of this (bad calls, bad refs, dirty players) is part of the game."
6-7 year olds?
"[D]efinitely intent to commit a foul at this age."
6-7 year olds?
They can barely spell.
I need to take a shower. I'm pretty sure I pi$$ed myself laughing so hard. Have a great weekend! Thanks for starting it off with a blast!

 

[Surfref]

My DD and I each worked 10 7v7 and 9v9 games this weekend. We only had one player out of 40 teams intentionally foul (pushing foul to the back) another player and she got a yellow card and she cried. These younger players do not go out onto the field wanting to hurt other players. The problems came from parents that could not keep their mouths shut and thought it was okay to continuously yell at the refs. Needless to say there were numerous parents sent away from the field by the coaches. Most of the coaches were frustrated with the behavior of their players parents. And, the coaches job gets tougher when parents try to coach their kids. Let the coaches, coach.

Please, please, just watch your kid play and cheer for them.

 

[Striker17]

My DD and I each worked 10 7v7 and 9v9 games this weekend. We only had one player out of 40 teams intentionally foul (pushing foul to the back) another player and she got a yellow card and she cried. These younger players do not go out onto the field wanting to hurt other players. The problems came from parents that could not keep their mouths shut and thought it was okay to continuously yell at the refs. Needless to say there were numerous parents sent away from the field by the coaches. Most of the coaches were frustrated with the behavior of their players parents. And, the coaches job gets tougher when parents try to coach their kids. Let the coaches, coach.

Please, please, just watch your kid play and cheer for them.

I would love it if refs actually took control of games early.
It's a game changer. An especially rowdy sideline this summer I was sick to my stomach thinking about sitting next to. It doesn't matter how far away you sit you know it's going to be bad. At any rate the center stopped he game no less than five times in the first ten minutes - came to parents and then had to also control the coach. They didn't listen so he gave another warning very sternly.
It stopped.
The game went on and they won as they should of because they are a great team!
At the end on the way to the car my car was parked next to the refs. I thanked him because the game was so much more enjoyable. He said he is tired of parents and coaches whose bad behavior incites parents.

 

[baldref]

My DD and I each worked 10 7v7 and 9v9 games this weekend. We only had one player out of 40 teams intentionally foul (pushing foul to the back) another player and she got a yellow card and she cried. These younger players do not go out onto the field wanting to hurt other players. The problems came from parents that could not keep their mouths shut and thought it was okay to continuously yell at the refs. Needless to say there were numerous parents sent away from the field by the coaches. Most of the coaches were frustrated with the behavior of their players parents. And, the coaches job gets tougher when parents try to coach their kids. Let the coaches, coach.

Please, please, just watch your kid play and cheer for them.

The parent behavior seems to be getting worse. It's embarrassing. Like we talked about today, it makes these medium, lower level younger games almost something to avoid. I love the players in these games and their spirit and effort, but it seems almost every game you have to threaten or remove coaches or parents.
Once in awhile, I get it. But every single match?

 

[Striker17]

Only been in the game for ten years as a parent and it's the worst I have seen. Social media heightens it- it's a click bait instant gratification society.

 

[Surfref]

A friend of mine who is a baseball umpire sent me this article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...0c031eab644_story.html?utm_term=.4b6692657e44

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

It could be worse. You could be an adult rec league ref (or maybe you are that too) where you have to walk back to your cars in groups for safety reasons.

 

[Surfref]

It could be worse. You could be an adult rec league ref (or maybe you are that too) where you have to walk back to your cars in groups for safety reasons.

I have work an adult coed league in Glendora when visiting family and a women's league in San Diego. Both of these are rec leagues and I have no problems. After the coed games the players from both teams usually offer us to hangout and have a beer or two. We politely have to turn them down.

 

[MWN]

Probably no intent to harm. But definitely intent to commit a foul at this age.

As a ref, shouldn't you call a foul as a foul regardless of what outcome it may have on the game or whether it may cause harm? As a ref, do you go into a U8/U9 game thinking that you won't have to blow your whistle since the fouls are harmless/don't affect the outcome of the game?

@rainbow_unicorn, that is an excellent question. To the first question ... "regardless of outcome" the answer is no. To the second ... "U8 harmless" ... the answer again is no as @baldref stated so very succinctly. Here is why:

There are basically 4 levels of fouls:
1) Trifling ... a foul that is a foul but we are not calling it because it was relatively insignificant and there is not negative impact on the fouled team and calling it would disrupt the flow of the game. Generally, a player that just lost a little control of their body and didn't intend any harm and there was no negative impact on the foulee team.
2) Careless ... a foul that we can whistle, but may let the play continue because of advantage. Most fouls fall into this category.
3) Reckless ... now its getting serious, the player deserves a yellow. Played the ball too late or too early. Here is where the shit hits the proverbial fan for parents. A U8 player has less control of their body, far less experience and far less intent to be an A-Hole. As refs, we have to judge the intent of the player to determine reckless ... little Johnny the 10 year old commits a foul that we are going to probably view as "careless," where as, John the 20 year old should know better that slide tackling from the blind side was reckless.
4) Excessive ... now we are on the final level. Player didn't play the ball, but played the player or were just flat out -- out of control. This is not soccer, but BS thuggery. Red card. Is little Johnny the 10 year old capable of this? Possibly (really depends on their parents and home life), but there are plenty of 20 year olds that are. The exception here is DOGSO where a Red Card may be issued because of the rules and not being an AHole (note, however, that we have much more latitude now on DOGSO).

So, U8's get more leeway because they get the benefit of the doubt because very view U8's are reckless, but just careless. U14's and up are starting to develop, have more body control and their fouls rise to the level of reckless and excessive.

On this note, last year I warned a U10 Presidio AA-C kid that kicked at the ball late and tripped the kid ... foul and warning (the kid was near tears and apologized). The week prior I yellow carded a U12 kid for the same exact move on a SCDSL Flight 1 team (the kid smirked, accepted it and went back to defend). Age and skill level play directly into the evaluation of whether the foul was trifling, careless, reckless or excessive.

So in conclusion ... no and no.

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

There are basically 4 levels of fouls:

When I said that girls at U8/U9 have intent to foul, I was referencing your level 2...a foul with no attempt at playing the ball (and more than a person being clumsy) and with no advantage. Sure, girls aren't getting hurt bad since they're not as fast, physical or nasty at this age. But that doesn't mean the whistle should not be blown.

Now, if you had to choose one, would it be better if a ref is blowing their whistle too much or not enough? If too much, then yeah...disrupts the flow of the game. But if not enough...then that's when it gets ugly with parents screaming, retaliation and players getting hurt. There are a lot of fine refs out there...but when you do run into that occasional ref that can't control a game (and it's higher than 5%...I would guess closer to 30-40%) then that's when it gets bad. Just have to strap yourself in and pray that players come out unscathed.

 

[coachrefparent]

When I said that girls at U8/U9 have intent to foul, I was referencing your level 2...a foul with no attempt at playing the ball (and more than a person being clumsy) and with no advantage. Sure, girls aren't getting hurt bad since they're not as fast, physical or nasty at this age. But that doesn't mean the whistle should not be blown.

Now, if you had to choose one, would it be better if a ref is blowing their whistle too much or not enough? If too much, then yeah...disrupts the flow of the game. But if not enough...then that's when it gets ugly with parents screaming, retaliation and players getting hurt. There are a lot of fine refs out there...but when you do run into that occasional ref that can't control a game (and it's higher than 5%...I would guess closer to 30-40%) then that's when it gets bad. Just have to strap yourself in and pray that players come out unscathed.

A foul with no attempt at playing the ball is technically in category 3 or 4 (putting aside the age). "Retaliation" with 7 and 8 year old girls (if it even occurs), is far different and instantly controllable, unlike a 17 or 18 year old match. Its more like a tantrum than a violent act.

This is why generic discussions about what should or should not be called without seeing the play, what has transpired, and of course the age and subjective view of intent become just a my team vs. your team discussion.

 

[baldref]

When I said that girls at U8/U9 have intent to foul, I was referencing your level 2...a foul with no attempt at playing the ball (and more than a person being clumsy) and with no advantage. Sure, girls aren't getting hurt bad since they're not as fast, physical or nasty at this age. But that doesn't mean the whistle should not be blown.

Now, if you had to choose one, would it be better if a ref is blowing their whistle too much or not enough? If too much, then yeah...disrupts the flow of the game. But if not enough...then that's when it gets ugly with parents screaming, retaliation and players getting hurt. There are a lot of fine refs out there...but when you do run into that occasional ref that can't control a game (and it's higher than 5%...I would guess closer to 30-40%) then that's when it gets bad. Just have to strap yourself in and pray that players come out unscathed.

30 to 40 percent is "that occasional ref"? I don't know you, but I'm going to guess, you're one of those parents who really doesn't understand what you're watching, and one that should definitely heed the advice of: watching your child play, cheering for him/her, and otherwise keeping quiet.

 

[MWN]

When I said that girls at U8/U9 have intent to foul, I was referencing your level 2...a foul with no attempt at playing the ball (and more than a person being clumsy) and with no advantage. Sure, girls aren't getting hurt bad since they're not as fast, physical or nasty at this age. But that doesn't mean the whistle should not be blown.

Now, if you had to choose one, would it be better if a ref is blowing their whistle too much or not enough? If too much, then yeah...disrupts the flow of the game. But if not enough...then that's when it gets ugly with parents screaming, retaliation and players getting hurt. There are a lot of fine refs out there...but when you do run into that occasional ref that can't control a game (and it's higher than 5%...I would guess closer to 30-40%) then that's when it gets bad. Just have to strap yourself in and pray that players come out unscathed.

No attempt to play the ball is likely a "Level 4 - Excessive" because it cannot be justified under the "reckless" (3rd level) or "careless" (2nd level). Any foul, even by a U-Little that constitutes "excessive" or "reckless" should have the whistle blown (assuming no advantage) immediately and the player either given a very stern warning or cautioned.

What I often see at this level is often two girls running after the ball, one more aggressive than the other, using her shoulder or arms to push off the challenger and just as they are about to reach the ball, one gets tangled up on the feet of the other. Parents go ballistic. What is going through my mind is:
1) The push. Was it arms extended? Partially extended? How high were the arms raised? Did the push have any impact? Was the challenger also using her arms or shoulder? Was the relative weight/size of the players similar? Assuming a foul, often times I view this foul as "trifling" ... play on.

2) Trip/Fall. Were both players moving towards the ball (i.e. attempting to play the ball) or to support the play? Were the feet/legs of the players moving in a natural running position? Did any player extend their leg in a non-natural position? What was the distance of the players to the ball? Most players that fall at the U-Little level fell as a result of loss of body control and not any careless or reckless act by the other player ... no foul.

When I do have a player playing more aggressively and rising to the level of "reckless" play, I first warn the player a few times and then pull a card if the player does not dial back the aggressive play. I also try to take into account the impact of the sideline and the lack of knowledge most U-Little parents have concerning what constitutes a foul. My personal experience is the U-Little games tend to be filled with sidelines of parents that just came up from Rec, think this is the damn World Cup for U10's, and have no genuine understanding of Law 12, the IFAB guidance or USSF Directives. I'll try to make statements to the chorus of parental groans during the match, such as, "not a trip, players were playing ball" or most often "no handball, not deliberate."

The other thing I have noticed is girls games tend to have a greater percentage of parents that are wholly intolerant of play that is aggressive, but within the rules. Boys games have a different parental demeanor, with parents more tolerant of a little push and shove to Johnny.

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

30 to 40 percent is "that occasional ref"? I don't know you, but I'm going to guess, you're one of those parents who really doesn't understand what you're watching, and one that should definitely heed the advice of: watching your child play, cheering for him/her, and otherwise keeping quiet.

I dunno...I've played/watched soccer for the last 40 years, played soccer for two Big 10 colleges, worked as a ref. As a team admin, I'm usually trying to keep my parents quiet and educating those who do not have soccer backgrounds on what constitutes as a foul. So trust me, I want the same thing that refs want...a smooth flowing game, parents only cheering their kids and a safe game.

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

Here's an example of an U8 intentional, no advantage, not a "level 1" type of foul. Ref is standing right there, doesn't blow his whistle and just raises his arms like there's advantage? To who?! LOL.

 

[MWN]

Here's an example of an U8 intentional, no advantage, not a "level 1" type of foul. Ref is standing right there, doesn't blow his whistle and just raises his arms like there's advantage? To who?! LOL.

You are correct, that was not a trifling foul. The player extended her arms beyond what we would normally see if she was sitting in a chair, pushed off, and the referee should have probably called a foul, level 2 careless. If this same player continued to do that type of move over the course of the game and had been warned a few times I might even give her yellow card but not until I see the same behavior repeated over and over

 

[coachrefparent]

Here's an example of an U8 intentional, no advantage, not a "level 1" type of foul. Ref is standing right there, doesn't blow his whistle and just raises his arms like there's advantage? To who?! LOL.

Some referees (improperly) use the advantage signal, when they mean "play on". Obviously they are not synonymous.

 

[Just a Parent]

It is a bit of a shocker when you see it for the first time at this young age and you know the pushing is intentional. But it only gets more physical here on out. So, yes...you have to teach them to learn how to use their body as leverage so that they don't get pushed off the ball. Teach how to pull back/change direction away from pressure (and/or give a little shove to see the other player fly by).

Not all intentional pushings are fouls.