7 vs 7 questions for SoCal League

[Grace T.]

This is categorically untrue in the last 2 decades. They CANNOT be bought and sold like commodities. I have explained how the system works in a post above and how it is regulated hope that can provide some clarity. Also your description of schools in Europe with children having to chose between sport or academics at such an early age is also completely wrong. My answers arent just based on research or belief but 1st hand experience having gone through it myself. I went through schooling in Asia, Europe and the US. I played / was a contracted athlete and scholarship student in both Europe and the US. Your understanding of the systems in place and how they work appear to be very wrong but then again a lot is lost in messages over here so it could also be the way that you have summarized it. I recommend you look at some of the academies that are offered in other countries at youth level. The school i went in the UK has had representation at every Olympic games since 1968. However, while the school has a pedigree in sport we are also a top 10 school in academics as well and i came to the US as a freshmen in college with Junior standing, (which is the fairly common) for most students coming in having completed that level of High School education in Europe.

Academies in Europe are the same as clubs in the US and will enroll any and all children that can pay in addition to the ones that they offer scholarships /contracts to. However the League(s) that they compete in hold the academies accountable for the teams that they put out and the academies/clubs themselves curate their teams to play at the right level to match the league standards but also to maintain their standards. This is NOT to say that they are anywhere close to perfection but they do at least provide what they claim. This is where SoCal Soccer League fails us in my opinion. They do not hold the clubs or themselves accountable for anything. They are false advertising and we are condoning that behaviour by saying that this is the norm and how it works and/or justifying their actions. This is directly taken from their website:

"SOCAL is a youth competitive soccer organization, sanctioned by US Club Soccer that offers programming for players U7-U19, boys and girls."

Everyone here seems to agree that competition is perceived at best in the 7 vs 7 age categories and the fact that they do hide results clearly undermines/removes the "competitive" aspect of their organization. So i pose the question, why are we ok with this? The question is partly rhetoric given the feedback we have seen from everyone and the PMs i have recd with reference to the same issues/concerns/questions that other parents have had or faced. It would be nice to see us get SoCal Soccer to change some of this in the future for both our kids currently playing and those that will be coming through the ranks. They are a for profit organization and there is no reason we shouldnt hold them accountable for what they claim to provide.

Haha. Totally nailed that: England. I'm still batting 1000%. Spain over here which is why I'm rolling my eyes (as most of the Continentals tend to do), but all in good fun. No malice intended, though a large part of the problems with US soccer stem from the wave of B level English soccer rejects that came over to the US in the 1990s and established the system. Thy country men are partially to blame for the mess over here (don't get me started on Mexico). So were you an English public school? As you are aware university admissions there are determined by exam performance, with respect to certain subjects. Here there is athletic recruitment which is a separate entry way into college, hence why the appeal of competitive sports to some families.

The "bought and sold" is a political statement about the effects of what the academies in Europe do. See below. I agree there's something limiting about short messages that doesn't cover all the nuance. I have been accused in the past of writing tomes over here, but this is why sometimes tomes are necessary. It's also not true that anyone can just play. My son is pen pals with a goalkeeper his age in the UK that had a youtube channel, HenrySavesAll. The channel details how the kid struggled to get an academy trial, ultimately got one, but did not get a place at his local academy and ultimately switched his focus to academics and decided to just play the English equivalent of rec as a field player. The difference between that and the US is that there is a D team for every player and there isn't some overall authority to handle sorting as there is in the US and UK....the leagues (MLS Next and somewhat ECNL excepted) are just ad hoc setups where the customers are the clubs and are just venues for the kids to play.

‘Football’s biggest issue’: the struggle facing boys rejected by academies

Thousands of players wash through the system every year, leaving behind shattered dreams of a professional career. Are clubs doing enough to look after them?

www.theguardian.com

My primary complaint is actually what SoCal Soccer Leagues markets/claims they sell vs what they actually provide. When i go to a restaurant and order a steak and they come back, turn of the lights and give me sludge i am not going to be ok with it. However, continuing with this analogy it seems a lot of people would argue that since I cant see the steak in the dark it shouldnt matter as that is what they have been doing for years and i should ok with or just not eat. That is exactly what SoCal Soccer League is doing. We pay for competitive play but instead they hide the scores, let any team sign up anywhere, move in to any bracket/flight they want and then SoCal Soccer League doesnt moderate the league to provide the competition.

This is an American cultural thing called "puffery". It's why you have so many shack's selling what they claim to be the world's most famous or best burger. The score diminuation thing as stated before is a deliberate decision of US soccer at this age to minimize the American obsession with winning and the distorting effect it has on development.

The safeguards you ask for aren't possible. There were problems even with the old pro/rel system by Coast which ultimately led to it becoming the mess that it is. The only way those safeguards would be possible is if you had 1 authority in the US that controlled the placement of players in appropriate levels and controlled the various clubs (kind of like a giant AYSO United). That's simply not the political reality in the US. There is such a system, but it is limited to academy play, which again doesn't start until around age 11. You seem to be mourning the fact that unlike the rest of the world, the US does not have a true academy system.

If that's the experience you are looking for your kid, I'd echo the suggestions of those here on the boards. Club sports at this age is a waste of time. Get him with a trainer, play futsal, and have the ball at their feet non stop until the year before academy selections. otherwise, since you have residence anyway, if football really is going to be such a central part of your kids future, time to look at moving back to England. Your kid won't get what they need here, which is why so many American footballers are going over there to train (particularly those with dual nationality that can do it as a younger).

 

[Jamisfoes]

That is correct and my point. Why are rec level teams playing club soccer and why is the league not doing anything about it?

SoCal flight 3 is AYSO core. Flight 2 is AYSO extra.

You are absolutely correct with your last statement. If it tries to be everything it will fail. I am only saying it needs to do what it says it provides - competitive youth soccer league. Right now it is not doing what it claims to be at its very essence. SoCal Soccer League has nothing to do with the clubs / academies and their financial structure or success. The clubs / academies can register whatever level of player they want and as many as they want to but the League needs to then put safeguards in place to prevent or minimize at least the number of teams not ready for competitive play and undermine the integrity of the entire system.

My kids started club soccer at 7. First with a flight 3 team and now flight 1. I don’t share the sentiment you have with SoCal. DOCs are pretty good at judging the level of their teams for the most part. We have always had competitive games. Sure there are a few dominant teams that should be playing up a year but for whatever reason they don’t. SoCal is only relevant until U10 anyway, it will be over before you know it. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. If your kid is truly special, he will be discovered and recruited. For the rest, just have fun.

 

[Rhyser]

A more apt analogy would be that you've gone to a hot dog cart on the street corner, paid those prices - and are either feigning outrage or experiencing actual outrage that you weren't served foie gras on silver. And you're now loudly wondering why that hot dog cart can't provide the same service as the Michelin starred restaurant.

You are misunderstanding what you are paying for. You are misunderstanding why the particular league has chosen to downplay winning/losing/scoring as the primary objective for the youngers. Your expectations are so far from reality of both what exists today for U8 where you now live and what is possible during your stint as team manager for an apparently mis-bracketed team, that you're on a path leading to years of disappointment before either getting your kid into the IMG academy, or them ultimately choosing trumpet, modern dance, or basketball instead of soccer.

Mate, price has nothing to do with this nor what i spent. You assume a lot of things in your statements and fail to provide anything of substance other than condescending responses. You consistently seem to take the side of SoCal Soccer League when almost everyone else notices and acknowledges the issues. There own about us page is contradictory to what they provide. I am sorry that you are happy with mediocrity and you feel like false marketing and business practices are ok especially when they tend to lean towards the exploitation of minors.

 

[Grace T.]

A more apt analogy would be that you've gone to a hot dog cart on the street corner, paid those prices - and are either feigning outrage or experiencing actual outrage that you weren't served foie gras on silver. And you're now loudly wondering why that hot dog cart can't provide the same service as the Michelin starred restaurant.

You are misunderstanding what you are paying for. You are misunderstanding why the particular league has chosen to downplay winning/losing/scoring as the primary objective for the youngers. Your expectations are so far from reality of both what exists today for U8 where you now live and what is possible during your stint as team manager for an apparently mis-bracketed team, that you're on a path leading to years of disappointment before either getting your kid into the IMG academy, or them ultimately choosing trumpet, modern dance, or basketball instead of soccer.

You nailed it. He's complaining though that the hot dog cart has a sign on it that says "now selling the world's best hotdog" and is shocked shocked that is not true.

 

[Rhyser]

Haha. Totally nailed that: England. I'm still batting 1000%. Spain over here which is why I'm rolling my eyes (as most of the Continentals tend to do), but all in good fun. No malice intended, though a large part of the problems with US soccer stem from the wave of B level English soccer rejects that came over to the US in the 1990s and established the system. Thy country men are partially to blame for the mess over here (don't get me started on Mexico). So were you an English public school? As you are aware university admissions there are determined by exam performance, with respect to certain subjects. Here there is athletic recruitment which is a separate entry way into college, hence why the appeal of competitive sports to some families.

The "bought and sold" is a political statement about the effects of what the academies in Europe do. See below. I agree there's something limiting about short messages that doesn't cover all the nuance. I have been accused in the past of writing tomes over here, but this is why sometimes tomes are necessary. It's also not true that anyone can just play. My son is pen pals with a goalkeeper his age in the UK that had a youtube channel, HenrySavesAll. The channel details how the kid struggled to get an academy trial, ultimately got one, but did not get a place at his local academy and ultimately switched his focus to academics and decided to just play the English equivalent of rec as a field player. The difference between that and the US is that there is a D team for every player and there isn't some overall authority to handle sorting as there is in the US and UK....the leagues (MLS Next and somewhat ECNL excepted) are just ad hoc setups where the customers are the clubs and are just venues for the kids to play.

‘Football’s biggest issue’: the struggle facing boys rejected by academies

Thousands of players wash through the system every year, leaving behind shattered dreams of a professional career. Are clubs doing enough to look after them?

www.theguardian.com

This is an American cultural thing called "puffery". It's why you have so many shack's selling what they claim to be the world's most famous or best burger. The score diminuation thing as stated before is a deliberate decision of US soccer at this age to minimize the American obsession with winning and the distorting effect it has on development.

The safeguards you ask for aren't possible. There were problems even with the old pro/rel system by Coast which ultimately led to it becoming the mess that it is. The only way those safeguards would be possible is if you had 1 authority in the US that controlled the placement of players in appropriate levels and controlled the various clubs (kind of like a giant AYSO United). That's simply not the political reality in the US. There is such a system, but it is limited to academy play, which again doesn't start until around age 11. You seem to be mourning the fact that unlike the rest of the world, the US does not have a true academy system.

If that's the experience you are looking for your kid, I'd echo the suggestions of those here on the boards. Club sports at this age is a waste of time. Get him with a trainer, play futsal, and have the ball at their feet non stop until the year before academy selections. otherwise, since you have residence anyway, if football really is going to be such a central part of your kids future, time to look at moving back to England. Your kid won't get what they need here, which is why so many American footballers are going over there to train (particularly those with dual nationality that can do it as a younger).

No malice or negativity came accross in your posts. I actually played in Spain as well, just spent more time in the UK with school. I was actually born in India and chose to move to the UK for school and sport and then moved to the US for under grad and grad with a brief stint in Dubai. Lived in plenty of places in the US with OC-CA being the longest. I went to Millfield in England. Very familiar with the the recruitment/admissions process as i have worked with plenty of US college bound kids as a counsellor in the past.

I have actually read the article you shared before along with numerous others that are more current with the struggles players face with rejection and dismissal by academies. Those are more mental health issues that plague a lot of individuals/players and a completely separate issue that academies / schools / etc are learning to identify and address all over the world.

If i came across as mourning the lack of a true academy system then i misrepresented myself and the nuances of messaging caught me out. I am just attempting to understand why we as a collective allow SoCal Soccer League to get away with false practices / advertising and why it is the we use the idea that "this is how it is" to dictate the failure to hold the organization to some form of a standard to at least practice what the claim to provide. I get everyones argument about the hotdog stand claiming to be the worlds best - that is purely subjective based on ones taste buds, palette, culinary experiences etc where as whether the league is providing Competitive Youth Soccer isnt. The simple definition of competition is "the act or process of trying to get or win something" - there is NO winning anything in SoCal Soccer League.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Mate, price has nothing to do with this nor what i spent.

In this reality, the one we all live in, price has everything to do with what can be provided - unless the service provider has chosen it as a hobby and is doing it in their own free time.

You consistently seem to take the side of SoCal Soccer League when almost everyone else notices and acknowledges the issues.

I'm not on the side of this league or any other, and for what it's worth - there are any number of hate screeds online about the particular management of SoCal Soccer League. But that's not the issue. You are misreading everyone's responses. Everyone notices and acknowledges the multiple issues with youth soccer in the US - your assignment of blame and resolution of those issues to a league - run by 1 or 2 people on a tiny budget - misunderstands the entire structure of the system in the US, and where change needs to come from if there is to be such change.

There own about us page is contradictory to what they provide.

Shocking! Next you'll tell me that you can't actually "have it your way" at Burger King.

I am sorry that you are happy with mediocrity and you feel like false marketing and business practices are ok especially when they tend to lean towards the exploitation of minors.

And I'm the one making condescending assumptions? You are as self-aware as you are perceptive.

 

[Grace T.]

You nailed it. He's complaining though that the hot dog cart has a sign on it that says "now selling the world's best hotdog" and is shocked shocked that is not true.

p.s. I hate to see what will happen when his kid gives him a "world's best dad" cup.

No malice or negativity came accross in your posts. I actually played in Spain as well, just spent more time in the UK with school. I was actually born in India and chose to move to the UK for school and sport and then moved to the US for under grad and grad with a brief stint in Dubai. Lived in plenty of places in the US with OC-CA being the longest. I went to Millfield in England. Very familiar with the the recruitment/admissions process as i have worked with plenty of US college bound kids as a counsellor in the past.

I have actually read the article you shared before along with numerous others that are more current with the struggles players face with rejection and dismissal by academies. Those are more mental health issues that plague a lot of individuals/players and a completely separate issue that academies / schools / etc are learning to identify and address all over the world.

If i came across as mourning the lack of a true academy system then i misrepresented myself and the nuances of messaging caught me out. I am just attempting to understand why we as a collective allow SoCal Soccer League to get away with false practices / advertising and why it is the we use the idea that "this is how it is" to dictate the failure to hold the organization to some form of a standard to at least practice what the claim to provide. I get everyones argument about the hotdog stand claiming to be the worlds best - that is purely subjective based on ones taste buds, palette, culinary experiences etc where as whether the league is providing Competitive Youth Soccer isnt. The simple definition of competition is "the act or process of trying to get or win something" - there is NO winning anything in SoCal Soccer League.

I was going to say you had to have gone to Millfield!!!! It had to be. Wow I'm good. As you know, the Millfield experience is not very representative of what goes on in England since England has very few independent schools geared to both sports and academics (Is Millfield even still in the top 10 academically anymore???). Professional footballers are not going to Eaton anymore. The closest thing to Millfield in the US is IMG in Florida. You experience even in England may be a bit myopic because of Millfield.

Where in Spain? My mom's side of the family is Basque and my kid got to spend a summer there when I did a work stint. So if you are an Indian national you don't have residence status in the UK? Because if you do and have your heart set on your kid being a professional footballer, that's really what you have to do: it's a no brainer. Unusual as well as India isn't exactly a powerhouse of soccer and most parents in the US tend to emphasize academics (which given the academic pace of honors in the US is simply impossible to do both once the kids get older).

As for competition it's not just SoCal League. At that age, the US has made a deliberate decision to deemphasize competition for the reasons previously stated because of crazy/impatient soccer parents. It changes as the kids get older and get sorted into appropriate levels and things like statecup, NPLS and letter leagues begin to open up. You may disagree with it, but for the sake of developing the USMNT players the decision has been made it doesn't matter at the age group, but except at the very highest level of the older age groups, the sorting is always imperfect.

 

[Rhyser]

In this reality, the one we all live in, price has everything to do with what can be provided - unless the service provider has chosen it as a hobby and is doing it in their own free time.



I'm not on the side of this league or any other, and for what it's worth - there are any number of hate screeds online about the particular management of SoCal Soccer League. But that's not the issue. You are misreading everyone's responses. Everyone notices and acknowledges the multiple issues with youth soccer in the US - your assignment of blame and resolution of those issues to a league - run by 1 or 2 people on a tiny budget - misunderstands the entire structure of the system in the US, and where change needs to come from if there is to be such change.



Shocking! Next you'll tell me that you can't actually "have it your way" at Burger King.



And I'm the one making condescending assumptions? You are as self-aware as you are perceptive.

@RandomSoccerFan i'll concede that we got off on the wrong foot based on how I read some of your earlier responses and my follow ups were not any better. I ended up doing exactly what i claimed you were doing. My apologies for that.

Looking at it with a clean slate, instead of looking at my points as laying blame on SoCal Soccer League is it possible to look at them as areas of improvement and change for the future? If we dont point these out and continue to accept things the way they are why would any change them? Lastly, while i completely acknowledge your point on the entire structure in the US with relation to youth soccer, why cant that change start in SoCal Soccer League to set an example?

For Example (and not saying this is the right solution either) SoCal Soccer League:
- 1 team per club per age group and flight
- team can only play up a year starting their 2nd year in the league and with leagues approval based on certain criteria like continuing roster, PPG, minimum number of games played and no other team from that club in the higher age/flight grouping.
- the 1st year the team must have atleast the minimum number of players to be placed in the given age bracket. they can use club pass players to fill in slots from lower age groups if needed.
- referees are evaluated by coaches / managers at the end of each game and consistent poor rating disqualify them from being assigned to future games with out further training.
- referees need to meet a minimum health and fitness level

These are just some thoughts.

 

[Grace T.]

@RandomSoccerFan i'll concede that we got off on the wrong foot based on how I read some of your earlier responses and my follow ups were not any better. I ended up doing exactly what i claimed you were doing. My apologies for that.

Looking at it with a clean slate, instead of looking at my points as laying blame on SoCal Soccer League is it possible to look at them as areas of improvement and change for the future? If we dont point these out and continue to accept things the way they are why would any change them? Lastly, while i completely acknowledge your point on the entire structure in the US with relation to youth soccer, why cant that change start in SoCal Soccer League to set an example?

For Example (and not saying this is the right solution either) SoCal Soccer League:
- 1 team per club per age group and flight
- team can only play up a year starting their 2nd year in the league and with leagues approval based on certain criteria like continuing roster, PPG, minimum number of games played and no other team from that club in the higher age/flight grouping.
- the 1st year the team must have atleast the minimum number of players to be placed in the given age bracket. they can use club pass players to fill in slots from lower age groups if needed.
- referees are evaluated by coaches / managers at the end of each game and consistent poor rating disqualify them from being assigned to future games with out further training.
- referees need to meet a minimum health and fitness level

These are just some thoughts.

You have a Chesterton's fence problem here. It's not like you are some new genius that sees things for the first time. All of these have been suggested and rejected for various reasons (hence the fence):

- 1 team per club per age group and flight
>>>the problem with this is that not all clubs are created equal. The mega clubs have more weight and are able to pull in more kids. It also makes it harder to do 7v7 because the demand would just wildly exceed the supply and you have problems then when you get to 11 v 11 that teams need to be combined. This is generally the rule, BTW, in letter league (with certain exceptions such as LA Surf having 2 teams in EA or some double ECNL on the girls side). You also have the problem, however, that clubs would just go and found nearby "affiliates" even more than they are doing so now. There's also very little rationale to limit the clubs to 1 team at the flight 3 level. Without some central authority to regulate the pyramid and disperse players evenly, you'd have some players locked out of teams and unable to play (as for example now exists on the girls side at the ECNL level in the Downey-Long Beach-Downtown triangle).

- team can only play up a year starting their 2nd year in the league and with leagues approval based on certain criteria like continuing roster, PPG, minimum number of games played and no other team from that club in the higher age/flight grouping.

>>>your rule is self defeating since you already limited clubs to 1 per flight. That also means that teams like yours could tear up the U8 without competition which is exactly what you were complaining about. This is the opposite of what is the solution for your team which is play up.

- the 1st year the team must have atleast the minimum number of players to be placed in the given age bracket. they can use club pass players to fill in slots from lower age groups if needed.

>>>This makes no sense. If the 1st year, how an they get slots from a lower age group?
- referees are evaluated by coaches / managers at the end of each game and consistent poor rating disqualify them from being assigned to future games with out further training.
>>>The issue here is there is a referee shortage. The best referees are doing the letter league olders games. The youngers get stuck with the newbies and youth referees. Some lower flight teams are having to cancel games because the refs don't even show up. You want to fix that, pay them more, substantially more. It's a market....if you make it worth their while they'll be motivated to do the ridiculous training over other things to make money. But that means some players without means will get further locked out by the high fees. You can have your soccer competitive, developmental or accessible (pick 2).
- referees need to meet a minimum health and fitness level
>>>Ditto. See above.

 

[Rhyser]

p.s. I hate to see what will happen when his kid gives him a "world's best dad" cup.

i might get sued by my son in the future if i cant live up to it! yes i get sarcasm and humor

Where in Spain?

We played the spanish academy teams in multiple tournaments both in spain and other countries. Most were hosted in Madrid though.

As you know, the Millfield experience is not very representative of what goes on in England since England has very few independent schools geared to both sports and academics (Is Millfield even still in the top 10 academically anymore???). Professional footballers are not going to Eaton anymore. The closest thing to Millfield in the US is IMG in Florida. You experience even in England may be a bit myopic because of Millfield.

You correct on the Millfield experience and the potential myopia related to it. however, i had plenty of family that was born and raised in and around London that didnt go to an "English Public School" - private school here in the US. Given that there are different levels of graduation in Europe 5th form and 6th form (11th and 12th grade being college essentially) and after 12th is university (im paraphrasing), Millfield as a whole still ranks in the top 10 but they have expanded a lot in to theatre, music and other programs. The rankings are subjective but for the most part given that it represents students from 80ish countries it still fares as a top 10 location in the US. IMG isnt the only place in the US there are several that cater to a similar experience to an Eaton, Harrow, Millfield etc - Phillips Exeter being another one. However i dont know if these actually address the issues of active league competition.

So if you are an Indian national you don't have residence status in the UK? Because if you do and have your heart set on your kid being a professional footballer, that's really what you have to do: it's a no brainer.

I dont have my heart set on either of my kids being professional athletes, just making sure whatever path they chose i do whatever i can to make sure they have the best opportunity and teach them through practice that if you notice something wrong, try and understand the issue and speak up.

As for competition it's not just SoCal League. At that age, the US has made a deliberate decision to deemphasize competition for the reasons previously stated because of crazy/impatient soccer parents. It changes as the kids get older and get sorted into appropriate levels and things like statecup, NPLS and letter leagues begin to open up. You may disagree with it, but for the sake of developing the USMNT players the decision has been made it doesn't matter at the age group, but except at the very highest level of the older age groups, the sorting is always imperfect.

i am realizing this over arching theme and i dont necessarily disagree with all of it but i do have issues with how it is implemented/marketed/packaged/sold to parents and children. I do see benefit (and i could be wrong) with trying to push for changes so that reality is closer to the hype/marketing

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

You have a Chesterton's fence problem here..... (edited)

Do you know that feeling when you're just about to submit this long and detailed response, and right before you do there is another post entered that says the exact same thing, but probably more articulately than yours?

So - I'll "like" Grace's post instead. It's what mine would have been word-for-word if I fed my draft into chatgpt and said "write it better".

 

[Grace T.]

i might get sued by my son in the future if i cant live up to it! yes i get sarcasm and humor


We played the spanish academy teams in multiple tournaments both in spain and other countries. Most were hosted in Madrid though.


You correct on the Millfield experience and the potential myopia related to it. however, i had plenty of family that was born and raised in and around London that didnt go to an "English Public School" - private school here in the US. Given that there are different levels of graduation in Europe 5th form and 6th form (11th and 12th grade being college essentially) and after 12th is university (im paraphrasing), Millfield as a whole still ranks in the top 10 but they have expanded a lot in to theatre, music and other programs. The rankings are subjective but for the most part given that it represents students from 80ish countries it still fares as a top 10 location in the US. IMG isnt the only place in the US there are several that cater to a similar experience to an Eaton, Harrow, Millfield etc - Phillips Exeter being another one. However i dont know if these actually address the issues of active league competition.


I dont have my heart set on either of my kids being professional athletes, just making sure whatever path they chose i do whatever i can to make sure they have the best opportunity and teach them through practice that if you notice something wrong, try and understand the issue and speak up.


i am realizing this over arching theme and i dont necessarily disagree with all of it but i do have issues with how it is implemented/marketed/packaged/sold to parents and children. I do see benefit (and i could be wrong) with trying to push for changes so that reality is closer to the hype/marketing

Phillips Exeter is primarily academic track focused, like Harvard Westlake here in Socal, though they also have a sports program. They are primarily geared to getting kids into a top 20 school. IMG is primarily athletic track focused....in the US the top 20 athletic colleges and top 20 academic colleges are very different....the difference between Harvard (where a Phillips Exeter kid might go) and Bama (where an IMG kid might go).

As to the hype of marketing, you no doubt would be incensed with the use by all the clubs of "Elite" and "Academy" when they are anything but. Again, American puffery.

 

[Rhyser]

You have a Chesterton's fence problem here. It's not like you are some new genius that sees things for the first time. All of these have been suggested and rejected for various reasons (hence the fence):

- 1 team per club per age group and flight
>>>the problem with this is that not all clubs are created equal. The mega clubs have more weight and are able to pull in more kids. It also makes it harder to do 7v7 because the demand would just wildly exceed the supply and you have problems then when you get to 11 v 11 that teams need to be combined. This is generally the rule, BTW, in letter league (with certain exceptions such as LA Surf having 2 teams in EA or some double ECNL on the girls side). You also have the problem, however, that clubs would just go and found nearby "affiliates" even more than they are doing so now. There's also very little rationale to limit the clubs to 1 team at the flight 3 level. Without some central authority to regulate the pyramid and disperse players evenly, you'd have some players locked out of teams and unable to play (as for example now exists on the girls side at the ECNL level in the Downey-Long Beach-Downtown triangle).
--> 1 team in competitive brackets/flights. If flight 1 and 2 are deemed competitive and flight 3 and below is deemed as rec then thats that so flight 3 and below can have multiples. The demand for parents wanting to sign their kids up would not be applicable as the clubs would put their best teams together in the competitive bracket and the weaker players in rec or other variations.


- team can only play up a year starting their 2nd year in the league and with leagues approval based on certain criteria like continuing roster, PPG, minimum number of games played and no other team from that club in the higher age/flight grouping.

>>>your rule is self defeating since you already limited clubs to 1 per flight. That also means that teams like yours could tear up the U8 without competition which is exactly what you were complaining about. This is the opposite of what is the solution for your team which is play up.

--> not all teams start at age 5. This was meant for clubs that start a u9/u10 or even u12 team with a new coach for example.

- the 1st year the team must have atleast the minimum number of players to be placed in the given age bracket. they can use club pass players to fill in slots from lower age groups if needed. if they cant build a full team move those players in to other existing teams to prevent filling spots with players that should not be playing competitive.

>>>This makes no sense. If the 1st year, how an they get slots from a lower age group?
--> see above

- referees are evaluated by coaches / managers at the end of each game and consistent poor rating disqualify them from being assigned to future games with out further training.
>>>The issue here is there is a referee shortage. The best referees are doing the letter league olders games. The youngers get stuck with the newbies and youth referees. Some lower flight teams are having to cancel games because the refs don't even show up. You want to fix that, pay them more, substantially more. It's a market....if you make it worth their while they'll be motivated to do the ridiculous training over other things to make money. But that means some players without means will get further locked out by the high fees. You can have your soccer competitive, developmental or accessible (pick 2).
--> in over 20 games this season we have not had a referee that i would classify as young/newbie. Most of them are geriatrics with mobility and vision issues and some with hearing loss. If there were younger referees that were refereeing the games i could understand the time and space we give them to grow and get better. the issues is we have constantly been assigned ones who can barely move. i actually have a video somewhere of a referee who took a full minute to walk from the sideline to center field and had a hearing problem on top of that and could not hear any of the coaches yelling for substitutions. The referees make $60+ per hours in SoCal. There are plenty more that would show up if the League cancelled the ability for these geriatrics to show up. And we dont need to make Competitive Youth Soccer accessible, that is where rec, rec+, pre-club etc comes in to play.

- referees need to meet a minimum health and fitness level
>>>Ditto. See above.
--> See above

 

[Rhyser]

Phillips Exeter is primarily academic track focused, like Harvard Westlake here in Socal, though they also have a sports program. They are primarily geared to getting kids into a top 20 school. IMG is primarily athletic track focused....in the US the top 20 athletic colleges and top 20 academic colleges are very different....the difference between Harvard (where a Phillips Exeter kid might go) and Bama (where an IMG kid might go).

As to the hype of marketing, you no doubt would be incensed with the use by all the clubs of "Elite" and "Academy" when they are anything but. Again, American puffery.

I get the American Puffery argument 100% but that doesnt make it right. It is also one thing for a b2c to have that nomenclature vs a b2b to use that as their mission statement as a collective of the b2c initiatives.

Fully accept your Phillips Exeter / IMG points however you still have your Stanfords and Ivy's with top10 athletic program. My point with both those, and again i dont have any insight in to this is, do the local/regional leagues provide the exposure and competition the kids need to grow?

 

[Grace T.]

You have a Chesterton's fence problem here. It's not like you are some new genius that sees things for the first time. All of these have been suggested and rejected for various reasons (hence the fence):

- 1 team per club per age group and flight
>>>the problem with this is that not all clubs are created equal. The mega clubs have more weight and are able to pull in more kids. It also makes it harder to do 7v7 because the demand would just wildly exceed the supply and you have problems then when you get to 11 v 11 that teams need to be combined. This is generally the rule, BTW, in letter league (with certain exceptions such as LA Surf having 2 teams in EA or some double ECNL on the girls side). You also have the problem, however, that clubs would just go and found nearby "affiliates" even more than they are doing so now. There's also very little rationale to limit the clubs to 1 team at the flight 3 level. Without some central authority to regulate the pyramid and disperse players evenly, you'd have some players locked out of teams and unable to play (as for example now exists on the girls side at the ECNL level in the Downey-Long Beach-Downtown triangle).
--> 1 team in competitive brackets/flights. If flight 1 and 2 are deemed competitive and flight 3 and below is deemed as rec then thats that so flight 3 and below can have multiples. The demand for parents wanting to sign their kids up would not be applicable as the clubs would put their best teams together in the competitive bracket and the weaker players in rec or other variations.


- team can only play up a year starting their 2nd year in the league and with leagues approval based on certain criteria like continuing roster, PPG, minimum number of games played and no other team from that club in the higher age/flight grouping.

>>>your rule is self defeating since you already limited clubs to 1 per flight. That also means that teams like yours could tear up the U8 without competition which is exactly what you were complaining about. This is the opposite of what is the solution for your team which is play up.

--> not all teams start at age 5. This was meant for clubs that start a u9/u10 or even u12 team with a new coach for example.

- the 1st year the team must have atleast the minimum number of players to be placed in the given age bracket. they can use club pass players to fill in slots from lower age groups if needed. if they cant build a full team move those players in to other existing teams to prevent filling spots with players that should not be playing competitive.

>>>This makes no sense. If the 1st year, how an they get slots from a lower age group?
--> see above

- referees are evaluated by coaches / managers at the end of each game and consistent poor rating disqualify them from being assigned to future games with out further training.
>>>The issue here is there is a referee shortage. The best referees are doing the letter league olders games. The youngers get stuck with the newbies and youth referees. Some lower flight teams are having to cancel games because the refs don't even show up. You want to fix that, pay them more, substantially more. It's a market....if you make it worth their while they'll be motivated to do the ridiculous training over other things to make money. But that means some players without means will get further locked out by the high fees. You can have your soccer competitive, developmental or accessible (pick 2).
--> in over 20 games this season we have not had a referee that i would classify as young/newbie. Most of them are geriatrics with mobility and vision issues and some with hearing loss. If there were younger referees that were refereeing the games i could understand the time and space we give them to grow and get better. the issues is we have constantly been assigned ones who can barely move. i actually have a video somewhere of a referee who took a full minute to walk from the sideline to center field and had a hearing problem on top of that and could not hear any of the coaches yelling for substitutions. The referees make $60+ per hours in SoCal. There are plenty more that would show up if the League cancelled the ability for these geriatrics to show up. And we dont need to make Competitive Youth Soccer accessible, that is where rec, rec+, pre-club etc comes in to play.

- referees need to meet a minimum health and fitness level
>>>Ditto. See above.
--> See above

a. It is rec. Rec +. You seem to be having a problem grasping your head around it. It's the difference between Premium Economy and Economy but you seem to have your eyes focused on it being First Class. The dispersal also doesn't make sense which is where coast ran into its problem. If you have 4 flights, most kids would be "average" which would mean the bulk of kids are in flight 2 or 3...it's a bell curve dispersal which is why Coast ran into its problems. Some clubs like Striker also have enough pull that they'll be able to wreck their competition anyways, which is a problem right now in EA/EA2/E64. Strikers could field 2 MLS Next Teams while Murietta has problems fielding just 1.
b. you still have the issue then of new teams wrecking the lower level competition. This happened on my son's first team, AYSO United, which was blowing out its Coast competition sometimes by 10 points or more.
c. See above. You'd need to have a system where the league sorts players into clubs at appropriate levels, sort of like the Spanish rec system.
d&e. Again because your team is a youngers team playing what essentially is rec+, you get the worst of the worst referees. The reason you get the old timers is because they can't even keep up with the teenage girls let alone the teenage boys and the periods are shorter. Your alternative is go with no referee at all, because there aren't experienced good referees that are dying to take a U7 game. You seem to not understand that in the pecking order of who gets the best referees, you are near the absolute bottom of the barrel. An experienced fit ref is more likely to take an adult Sunday league game than yours. Referee shortage. Want better you have to pay them substantially substantially more, so much more that they are grateful for a U7 game since the MLS Next games are the equivalent of Harvard to referees.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

@Rhyser. Buddy. It's OK to wish the refs were better. But you're continuing to ignore actual realities that people are trying to explain to you - in detail. US Soccer didn't have enough qualified refs before COVID. After things started up again, the numbers of available refs are roughly half of what they were prior. It's a real problem. My kid refs when he has time, and gets frantic group emails pretty much every day saying "HELP! There are still 60 games this weekend without enough refs! Please sign up!". It's a real problem, and anyone who sees the numbers and understands how dire it is would be thanking the refs - any refs - for showing up so a game can be held. Many leagues have lowered the required amount of refs from 3 to 2 or even just 1 per game, as otherwise games would have to be cancelled. At the U8 levels and below - it's always going to be the lowest priority. If you want change? Get your ref license and help out. A parent on our team just did that this fall, and has already had to stand in as an AR when the refs were shorthanded.

Laying out higher requirements and tests is a fine suggestion - it just will result in less refs available. If the intent is to increase the number and quality of refs, the pay needs to be significantly higher, and there need to be more timely and effective consequences for butthead parents antagonizing the refs at a kid's soccer game. Something like half of teen refs that get certified stop after 2 years at this point, and it's not because we are paying them too much or making the experience too hospitable.

 

[Grace T.]

I get the American Puffery argument 100% but that doesnt make it right. It is also one thing for a b2c to have that nomenclature vs a b2b to use that as their mission statement as a collective of the b2c initiatives.

Fully accept your Phillips Exeter / IMG points however you still have your Stanfords and Ivy's with top10 athletic program. My point with both those, and again i dont have any insight in to this is, do the local/regional leagues provide the exposure and competition the kids need to grow?

This is a fallacy again. Competition does not = growth at the younger ages and is in fact deterimental to it. Because you are a newb, you seem to be confused as to what you actually want out of all this. Want your kid to be pro? You are probably wasting your time and should look at going back to England and getting a real soccer education (which a lot of American parents would kill for). Want your kid to develop? Chilax...if it were more competitive the coaches would short change your kid by trying to win and play boot ball. That's already a problem as it is so you don't really want more of it. Want your kid to play soccer in college? Too early to worry about that....just have them love practice....be patient and time will come...acknowledge this for what it is that it's rec + and if you want more later there are the academies at age 11. Want to win trophies? Go to AYSO Extras or All Stars....they are all about the trophies.

Here's a small critique and I don't mean it maliciously at all. One of the reasons why club soccer is so all over the place is exactly people like you: you don't know what you exactly want so because it's a market it's forced to adapt to everything you want out of it and therefore gets you nothing reallly great.

 

[chipmonk]

Mate, price has nothing to do with this nor what i spent.

I’d guess that the price point is actually the root of the problem though, even if the price doesn’t bother you. The clubs and leagues are selling a product that’s supposed to be better than the local park program or AYSO Core or even the larger clubs own rec programs. In reality, 99% of the time it’s not at U10 and below, maybe even U12 and below if you throw in the all-star or extra teams. Most people here seem to really hate the more grassroots leagues even at the younger ages, which I don’t understand. Half the year with evenly distributed players and hyper local, where more of the best players also get to be leaders, half the year in more competitive leagues/tournaments with the better coaches.

The clubs/leagues wont give up that extra revenue, or the chance to hook the parents when the kids are the youngest so they can squeeze out an extra paid season or two (and private sessions) before the parents finally realize that their kid just isn’t into it or good enough.

The unit (kid/parent) economics dictate the way it works, not the quality of the product. Just like the hot dog stand.

 

[Rhyser]

a. It is rec. Rec +. You seem to be having a problem grasping your head around it. It's the difference between Premium Economy and Economy but you seem to have your eyes focused on it being First Class. The dispersal also doesn't make sense which is where coast ran into its problem. If you have 4 flights, most kids would be "average" which would mean the bulk of kids are in flight 2 or 3...it's a bell curve dispersal which is why Coast ran into its problems. Some clubs like Striker also have enough pull that they'll be able to wreck their competition anyways, which is a problem right now in EA/EA2/E64. Strikers could field 2 MLS Next Teams while Murietta has problems fielding just 1.

--> If it is rec / rec+ then call it as such. That is not what SoCal Soccer calls it. That is also what i suggesting is provide the competitive flight, even if it is only flight 1 and then promote the others flights accordingly.

b. you still have the issue then of new teams wrecking the lower level competition. This happened on my son's first team, AYSO United, which was blowing out its Coast competition sometimes by 10 points or more.
--> my suggestions as i stated arent gospel or the perfect answer but merely suggestions to plug the issue of not having a competitive league structure for 7vs7 and equally stop SoCal Soccer League from false promoting.

c. See above. You'd need to have a system where the league sorts players into clubs at appropriate levels, sort of like the Spanish rec system.
d&e. Again because your team is a youngers team playing what essentially is rec+, you get the worst of the worst referees. The reason you get the old timers is because they can't even keep up with the teenage girls let alone the teenage boys and the periods are shorter. Your alternative is go with no referee at all, because there aren't experienced good referees that are dying to take a U7 game. You seem to not understand that in the pecking order of who gets the best referees, you are near the absolute bottom of the barrel. An experienced fit ref is more likely to take an adult Sunday league game than yours. Referee shortage. Want better you have to pay them substantially substantially more, so much more that they are grateful for a U7 game since the MLS Next games are the equivalent of Harvard to referees.
--> The reason we get the old timers is because the league doesnt have minimum standards and they allow these geriatrics to ref games. If stopping them from coming increases the price to get different ref out there then so be it but there needs to be some protection for the kids. Most of these old refs like said cant keep up at all and dont see most of the fouls, which at this age can be unintentional too, but if they dont see the fouls or stop play as needed it only creates more problems. Then you have the partially deaf ones that dont hear some of the coaches yelling obscenities at their own players and egging them on to commit bad tackles and plays. We cant keep making excuses as to why it is the way it is when we see the problem and allow it to keep happening.

 

[Rhyser]

This is a fallacy again. Competition does not = growth at the younger ages and is in fact deterimental to it. Because you are a newb, you seem to be confused as to what you actually want out of all this. Want your kid to be pro? You are probably wasting your time and should look at going back to England and getting a real soccer education (which a lot of American parents would kill for). Want your kid to develop? Chilax...if it were more competitive the coaches would short change your kid by trying to win and play boot ball. That's already a problem as it is so you don't really want more of it. Want your kid to play soccer in college? Too early to worry about that....just have them love practice....be patient and time will come...acknowledge this for what it is that it's rec + and if you want more later there are the academies at age 11. Want to win trophies? Go to AYSO Extras or All Stars....they are all about the trophies.

Here's a small critique and I don't mean it maliciously at all. One of the reasons why club soccer is so all over the place is exactly people like you: you don't know what you exactly want so because it's a market it's forced to adapt to everything you want out of it and therefore gets you nothing reallly great.

I did not say or at least mean competition = growth. I do however stand by that competition is small requirement for holistic growth. I can tell what i want from this. It is actually quite simple. The League to actually provide what it states it is going to provide. Not from a subjective standpoint using the food analogies but from a contractual standpoint.

You are correct that club soccer is all over the place but that has nothing to do with the organization that is supposed to be coordinating a league. Strikers / Slammers /Whamers /Surf what the clubds decide to do and how they chose to run their program is on them and then on the parent to decide which one of those programs fits their childs needs. The part that i feel should not be up for debate is the League not meeting minimum standards, especially those that they themselves outline but do not enforce for themselves let alone the member organizations in the 7v7 setup.