7 vs 7 questions for SoCal League

[Rhyser]

I am a new parent in US Club Soccer world. I grew up overseas and the systems were very different to what we see here. I have several questions and was hoping for some honest unbiased feedback:

SoCal league appears to be the only relatively functional system in our area right now. The others as seen from multiple threads have died of or are basically splinter organizations. However, SoCal Soccer League seems to have no oversight and/or systems in place to register teams accurately. Currently, they have both a U8 and U7 league for Fall. In the U8 brackets they have over 150 teams registered with more than 40% of them being U7/U6 teams.

(a) Why are they allowing teams that are the wrong age group to register? This appears to be an automatic rejection that can be plugged in to GotSport but they dont use it?
(b) Is there some valid reasoning to this?

The 7 vs 7 brackets are also now closed in looking at results (granted you can still retrieve them with a little common sense from gotsport) and the League is not going to recognize winners / runners up or acknowledge the performance of any team.

(c) Considering we pay the league fees, managers/coaches enter the scores, we print the teams sheets for the referee, pay the referee fees for each game, provide corner flags etc - what does the League do? Isnt this equivalent to us hiring and paying someone to do a job only for them to come over and watch you do the job your self? The entire 7 vs 7 section are glorified friendlies with with majority of the teams wrongly bracketed and/or even allowed to play club instead of having them play in a recreational league.

(d) Given that so many teams are wrongly registered in each age bracket and flight what kind of oversight is there on an organization like this to prevent abuse of children and parents from clubs and the league just milking them for their money? Looking at all the scores in many of the U8 and U9 brackets there only appears to 1 maybe 2 out of every 9/10 teams that actually should be in club soccer.

(e) Lastly, but most importantly given that SoCal Soccer never has any representatives at games and dont want to listen to feedback from Coaches / Managers who watches out for teams flagrantly violating the league rules especially those related around other coaches screaming and berating their own players?

Any feedback or insight in the world of club soccer at this age, league, systems etc is much appreciated!

 

[Jamisfoes]

SoCal allows teams to play up in age group. And they don’t need to police who should be in what flight. It’s the coach’s and DOC’s job to place their team at the right level of competition. Teams in the wrong level disband. Simple as that.

 

[Rhyser]

SoCal allows teams to play up in age group. And they don’t need to police who should be in what flight. It’s the coach’s and DOC’s job to place their team at the right level of competition. Teams in the wrong level disband. Simple as that.

Thanks. Good to know that teams are allowed to play up but it seems to be compounded with the lack of oversight from anyone especially SoCal Soccer League making most games worthless even from a coaching standpoint. We have had games where kids on the other team are bawling their heads off screaming we want to go home and as such the referee unilaterally decided to only play 15 minutes a half. At the same time even if we played a full game it would not have been worth it. To the second point though i am seeing teams playing into their 3rd year together with the same kind of displays on the field and dont see them disbanding anytime soon. You cant blame the club if the parents are willing to subject their kids to the shame and the League has no oversight or standards.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

It seems like there is a large disconnect between your expectations and the reality of U8 and below youth soccer. Doesn't mean that what you would like to see is irrational or wrong on its face - but you're in for a rough few years until those expectations match up with the actual experience.

a) You are fundamentally misunderstanding how teams are created at that early age. U8 means that a kid is eligible if they are born in 2016 or later (for the 2023-2024 season). (link to example full age chart/explanation). Some teams will have kids from 2018 to 2016 on it. Some teams will only have 2017, and still choose to play up in U8. And some teams will be "age-pure" and have entirely 2016 kids exclusively. At these lower age groups, in my experience an "age-pure" team is somewhat rare - and if a team does have enough recruitment and roster desirability to be age-pure - it's also the same type of team that will play up a year to see reasonable competition. Many of the stronger clubs play their kids on their top team up at least 1 year, all the way to U13.

b) See above.

c) field permits/access, insurance, refs, registration, organization/communication. Those are the expenses of these leagues, and those roughly match the fees. Those expecting professional coaching, or anything more costly than above - are going to be sorely disappointed. It sounds like you're also disappointed with the level of competition. You should now understand why some of the more competitive teams choose to play up a year either as an entire team, or to individually bump some of their kids up. You're not the only person to believe that many kids at this age level and below would probably get just as much out of rec soccer rather than travel/comp - and trying to define how they'd be significantly different is a challenge. The goal is for kids to learn to enjoy the game, and grow basic skills - being overly serious about it is likely unhelpful for the vast majority.

d) What does the age group registration have to do with abuse of children and parents?

e) Here are the rules. The relevant points are the Code of Ethics on page 5, the Zero Tolerance Abuse Policy on page 6, and the Parent Code of Conduct on page 7. Another relevant point (see page 9) is that most communication/concerns/complaints about almost all of the above need to go through the individual club rather than going direct to the league.

All communication to any SOCAL Staff member regarding a game MUST include the Game # in the subject line of the email. Emails to SOCAL staff from parents, managers or coaches will not be replied to and Clubs should instruct their members and staff that all communications must come to designated Club Officials for review and, if necessary, the Club Official may reach out to a SOCAL staff member for assistance.

It's probably helpful to point out that in very few cases at this age level - are the coaches or managers any more than unpaid volunteers. Thinking of them as paid employees that you're contracting for a service is another potential misunderstanding of the contractual relationship.

 

[Rhyser]

It seems like there is a large disconnect between your expectations and the reality of U8 and below youth soccer. Doesn't mean that what you would like to see is irrational or wrong on its face - but you're in for a rough few years until those expectations match up with the actual experience.

a) You are fundamentally misunderstanding how teams are created at that early age. U8 means that a kid is eligible if they are born in 2016 or later (for the 2023-2024 season). (link to example full age chart/explanation). Some teams will have kids from 2018 to 2016 on it. Some teams will only have 2017, and still choose to play up in U8. And some teams will be "age-pure" and have entirely 2016 kids exclusively. At these lower age groups, in my experience an "age-pure" team is somewhat rare - and if a team does have enough recruitment and roster desirability to be age-pure - it's also the same type of team that will play up a year to see reasonable competition. Many of the stronger clubs play their kids on their top team up at least 1 year, all the way to U13.

b) See above.

c) field permits/access, insurance, refs, registration, organization/communication. Those are the expenses of these leagues, and those roughly match the fees. Those expecting professional coaching, or anything more costly than above - are going to be sorely disappointed. It sounds like you're also disappointed with the level of competition. You should now understand why some of the more competitive teams choose to play up a year either as an entire team, or to individually bump some of their kids up. You're not the only person to believe that many kids at this age level and below would probably get just as much out of rec soccer rather than travel/comp - and trying to define how they'd be significantly different is a challenge. The goal is for kids to learn to enjoy the game, and grow basic skills - being overly serious about it is likely unhelpful for the vast majority.

d) What does the age group registration have to do with abuse of children and parents?

e) Here are the rules. The relevant points are the Code of Ethics on page 5, the Zero Tolerance Abuse Policy on page 6, and the Parent Code of Conduct on page 7. Another relevant point (see page 9) is that most communication/concerns/complaints about almost all of the above need to go through the individual club rather than going direct to the league.



It's probably helpful to point out that in very few cases at this age level - are the coaches or managers any more than unpaid volunteers. Thinking of them as paid employees that you're contracting for a service is another potential misunderstanding of the contractual relationship.

Thanks for taking the time to detail this out. I appreciate the insight. The parts that i still dont understand and/or you requested clarification on:

(a) I understand that a 5/6/7 year old is still U8 and that technically they qualify but if that is the criteria then why not scrap the age groups in totality and just have Flights / Level brackets. Currently of the 11 games we have played in SoCal Soccer League in the U8 division majority of the opposition teams have had more 2017/2018 players than 2016 in the B2016 brackets. If they were playing up because they were good would be one thing but these teams are losing by 10+ goal margins even after our coach is setting 10 passes before shot restrictions on our boys. A U8 (2016) should at least have enough 2016 players on it to take the pitch for a game and fill in the other spots with 2017/18 and not the other way around. This isnt to say we havent played against boys that are 2017 born that could have even played in a 2015 bracket or higher but instead of foster the passion for the sport these kids are being destroyed emotionally as they are half way in the season and their GD is -60 half way in to the season.

(c) The league doesnt pay for referees we pay for them at each game. Also the referees they send out most cant even be called referees. Most of them fail to even get 8 feet away from the center kick off spot and then change their call based on complaining aprents on the side. They do not uphold the policies for fair play and the code of conduct either. The referees arent even a requirement in the 7 vs 7 format as the league rules state a parent/coach can referee the game if one doesnt show up. The field isnt an expensive aspect especially when you are fielding 4 games at the same time on the field. Great park in Irvine for example is $32 an hour for their 4 top fields for youth soccer. Basically $8 per team per game. Insurance should be carried by each club. The insurance that the league carries is their own policy for liability etc which is the cost of doing business. The organization/communication doesnt exist in the 7 vs 7 game at all and thus all of this adds up to what are they doing? There are no trophies, no organization nothing. Not sure why you mentioned professional level coaching (this is the prerogative of the club not league). Your last point that at this age it is about enjoying, cultivating the love of the sport and learning/growing is exactly my point. How is one supposed to do that when your team is battered week in week out by double digits. Half you team is crying i dont want be hear / i want to go home. fair competition and recognition of achievement would be a good start to help these kids develop their love of the sport which the league doesnt do.

(d) age restriction/registration for teams potentially fosters better competition and even play rather than a club saying our boys can play a year up and lose every week by 10 goals. This is where the exploitation of parents and children come in where in clubs/teams are leading parents to believe their child is capable of playing club soccer but in reality they would not make a backyard pickup game at school. If the league doesnt have and enforce any standards you will undoubtedly have people taking advantage of it.

(e) Thanks again for posting the rules. I have those as team manager from SoCal Soccer however my point was that they do nothing to enforce them. Our club has reached out on several occasion about coaches who constantly berate their kids and cuss at them, calling them names and using emotional blackmail as well. All of this submitted with video evidence. However 4 months later the coach is still with the same team in the same SoCal soccer league doing the same thing at almost every game. We have also reached out about referees failing to stop play when children are injured and instead carding the coach / parent when they go out to carry the player of the field. We had a player who was clotheslined and slammed to the ground and the other teams parents cheered the played and coach was shouting at his team to do more of that. The referee didnt stop play, didnt find any fault with the opposition coach or parents and instead carded our team for going on to the field to carry out the child who was out cold on the ground. That referee is still going to games, the opposition coach is still coaching and the League is doing nothing.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

The answer to a) is always going to be the same, and it's not going to be one that you're happy with. There aren't enough kids in existence in southern california to create a significant number of age-pure teams at roughly similar levels of competition. And it's better in southern california, than almost anywhere else in the country.

c) you come across as a cluelessly arrogant and argumentative (see: typical) U8 soccer parent. You may be one in real life - you may not be - but that's how you come across in your writing here. How skilled do you expect the teenage kids reffing a U8 soccer game to be? Complaining about it to the extent that you are shows a complete lack of empathy, understanding, and a comprehension of how the world actually works. This is U8 soccer. Again, this is U8 soccer.

d) you are misunderstanding the effect of teams/kids playing up. If it were populationally doable to still have enough teams and strictly enforcing teams to be the same birth year - in all likelihood that would greater the occurrence of blowouts, not promote closer competition. It's another lever that coaches can use to attempt to get their teams/kids in a level of play that will help them develop. Yes - it's possible that some teams play up a year and are uncompetitive, but it's also possible that the amount of kids available for that team had 5, 6, and 7 year olds and they had no choice but to play in the U8 bracket - or to not field a team.

If your team is actually hitting double-digit wins each game, there are at least two lessons. One of them is that your coach should have strongly considered playing them up a year, and missed that opportunity for this season. The second, is that however good you believe the team is, or your kid is, it simply doesn't matter at this age. 97% of the people on this board are into it because they see their kid play when they are 40 pounds and still have all of their baby teeth, and able to run circles around their peers and score a million goals per game. 97% of them realize over time in hindsight that their advantages in the youngest ages may or may not hold fast as everyone else starts to develop and teams form/break up/form/breakup over the next few years. From nothing but your writings here - it's a decent assumption that you may be taking this a little too seriously.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Thanks for taking the time to detail this out. I appreciate the insight. The parts that i still dont understand and/or you requested clarification on:

(a) I understand that a 5/6/7 year old is still U8 and that technically they qualify but if that is the criteria then why not scrap the age groups in totality and just have Flights / Level brackets. Currently of the 11 games we have played in SoCal Soccer League in the U8 division majority of the opposition teams have had more 2017/2018 players than 2016 in the B2016 brackets. If they were playing up because they were good would be one thing but these teams are losing by 10+ goal margins even after our coach is setting 10 passes before shot restrictions on our boys. A U8 (2016) should at least have enough 2016 players on it to take the pitch for a game and fill in the other spots with 2017/18 and not the other way around. This isnt to say we havent played against boys that are 2017 born that could have even played in a 2015 bracket or higher but instead of foster the passion for the sport these kids are being destroyed emotionally as they are half way in the season and their GD is -60 half way in to the season.

(c) The league doesnt pay for referees we pay for them at each game. Also the referees they send out most cant even be called referees. Most of them fail to even get 8 feet away from the center kick off spot and then change their call based on complaining aprents on the side. They do not uphold the policies for fair play and the code of conduct either. The referees arent even a requirement in the 7 vs 7 format as the league rules state a parent/coach can referee the game if one doesnt show up. The field isnt an expensive aspect especially when you are fielding 4 games at the same time on the field. Great park in Irvine for example is $32 an hour for their 4 top fields for youth soccer. Basically $8 per team per game. Insurance should be carried by each club. The insurance that the league carries is their own policy for liability etc which is the cost of doing business. The organization/communication doesnt exist in the 7 vs 7 game at all and thus all of this adds up to what are they doing? There are no trophies, no organization nothing. Not sure why you mentioned professional level coaching (this is the prerogative of the club not league). Your last point that at this age it is about enjoying, cultivating the love of the sport and learning/growing is exactly my point. How is one supposed to do that when your team is battered week in week out by double digits. Half you team is crying i dont want be hear / i want to go home. fair competition and recognition of achievement would be a good start to help these kids develop their love of the sport which the league doesnt do.

(d) age restriction/registration for teams potentially fosters better competition and even play rather than a club saying our boys can play a year up and lose every week by 10 goals. This is where the exploitation of parents and children come in where in clubs/teams are leading parents to believe their child is capable of playing club soccer but in reality they would not make a backyard pickup game at school. If the league doesnt have and enforce any standards you will undoubtedly have people taking advantage of it.

(e) Thanks again for posting the rules. I have those as team manager from SoCal Soccer however my point was that they do nothing to enforce them. Our club has reached out on several occasion about coaches who constantly berate their kids and cuss at them, calling them names and using emotional blackmail as well. All of this submitted with video evidence. However 4 months later the coach is still with the same team in the same SoCal soccer league doing the same thing at almost every game. We have also reached out about referees failing to stop play when children are injured and instead carding the coach / parent when they go out to carry the player of the field. We had a player who was clotheslined and slammed to the ground and the other teams parents cheered the played and coach was shouting at his team to do more of that. The referee didnt stop play, didnt find any fault with the opposition coach or parents and instead carded our team for going on to the field to carry out the child who was out cold on the ground. That referee is still going to games, the opposition coach is still coaching and the League is doing nothing.

Welcome to the club!

Many of us have been complaining about the same type of things for several years.

I don't know why refs don't blow their whistle more. For the younger kids that are refs I get it, giving cards out is difficult especially when it involves a parent. For the adults that ref its shamefull when you don't hand out cards + control the game + protect the players. My experience with refs is the ones in LA and older Latin men tend to let the most go during the game. Seems like a macho thing or they just don't care.

As you get older the refs will get better but they're still afraid to give cards. We have a forward that has literally been slide tackled in the box in 1on1s with the goalie MULTIPLE TIMES to the point they had to come off the field + no cards given. One time the same forward beat the goalie 1on1 to goal so the goalie literally ran up and tackled them like in American Football (should have been an instant red) no card was given.

Regarding under 7 ages + who plays + competitiveness of the teams, nobody cares. At this age the clubs that do care are recruiting from everyone else + preparing for 9v9 and 11v11. Top Futsal teams do care about scores and talent at this age.

 

[Rhyser]

The answer to a) is always going to be the same, and it's not going to be one that you're happy with. There aren't enough kids in existence in southern california to create a significant number of age-pure teams at roughly similar levels of competition. And it's better in southern california, than almost anywhere else in the country.

c) you come across as a cluelessly arrogant and argumentative (see: typical) U8 soccer parent. You may be one in real life - you may not be - but that's how you come across in your writing here. How skilled do you expect the teenage kids reffing a U8 soccer game to be? Complaining about it to the extent that you are shows a complete lack of empathy, understanding, and a comprehension of how the world actually works. This is U8 soccer. Again, this is U8 soccer.

d) you are misunderstanding the effect of teams/kids playing up. If it were populationally doable to still have enough teams and strictly enforcing teams to be the same birth year - in all likelihood that would greater the occurrence of blowouts, not promote closer competition. It's another lever that coaches can use to attempt to get their teams/kids in a level of play that will help them develop. Yes - it's possible that some teams play up a year and are uncompetitive, but it's also possible that the amount of kids available for that team had 5, 6, and 7 year olds and they had no choice but to play in the U8 bracket - or to not field a team.

If your team is actually hitting double-digit wins each game, there are at least two lessons. One of them is that your coach should have strongly considered playing them up a year, and missed that opportunity for this season. The second, is that however good you believe the team is, or your kid is, it simply doesn't matter at this age. 97% of the people on this board are into it because they see their kid play when they are 40 pounds and still have all of their baby teeth, and able to run circles around their peers and score a million goals per game. 97% of them realize over time in hindsight that their advantages in the youngest ages may or may not hold fast as everyone else starts to develop and teams form/break up/form/breakup over the next few years. From nothing but your writings here - it's a decent assumption that you may be taking this a little too seriously.

(a) Currently 180 teams in the U8 bracket in SoCal soccer league with at least 60 "age-pure" by definition. My suggestions wasnt that they need to be age pure but at least majority of the right age. at least 7 of the roster should be the right age to field a full team. The average roster size is approximately 9 per team that equates to which is over 1600 players with at least 800 of them the right age. Thats enough for 66 teams and if broken in to flights 4 very competitive flights of 15+ in each bracket. Im sorry but your argument of not enough players just doesnt hold true.

(c) not sure how facts come of as cluelessly arrogant. The second part in reference to skill, it is completely relative however the clubs and league should have safe guards in place to be able to make sound decision which is what isnt there right now and it stems from the fact that the league doesnt care and do anything -see factual example in (e)

(d) see (a)

It is not just my team that us hitting double digits but on average 1 team per bracket. Here is a sample bracket from the U8


In terms of how good or bad i believe my team to be is irrelevant. That is not what i was asking here nor was a personal attack on facts or judgment on thoughts and opinions called for. I have grown up across 2 different continents playing competitive sport and have first hand experience in youth sport personally as well as with my other older child who competes in a different sport that what is happening in SoCal Soccer League is not the norm in youth sports even in the US. And yes child abuse/exploitation and lack of oversight is a serious issue and you should also be taking it seriously. Unfortunately you come of as an employee of SoCal Soccer League defending its practices more than anything else. After you initial insights/thoughts your last post has gone to character bashing rather than providing any substance. If i am wrong about my assessments and the facts that i have provided please point those out however calling me clueless / arrogant or other names just puts you in a bad light.

 

[Rhyser]

Welcome to the club!

Many of us have been complaining about the same type of things for several years.

I don't know why refs don't blow their whistle more. For the younger kids that are refs I get it, giving cards out is difficult especially when it involves a parent. For the adults that ref its shamefull when you don't hand out cards + control the game + protect the players. My experience with refs is the ones in LA and older Latin men tend to let the most go during the game. Seems like a macho thing or they just don't care.

As you get older the refs will get better but they're still afraid to give cards. We have a forward that has literally been slide tackled in the box in 1on1s with the goalie MULTIPLE TIMES to the point they had to come off the field + no cards given. One time the same forward beat the goalie 1on1 to goal so the goalie literally ran up and tackled them like in American Football (should have been an instant red) no card was given.

Regarding under 7 ages + who plays + competitiveness of the teams, nobody cares. At this age the clubs that do care are recruiting from everyone else + preparing for 9v9 and 11v11. Top Futsal teams do care about scores and talent at this age.

Seems like your experience has been the same as ours and appreciate the info on prepping for 9 v 9 and 11 v 11 thought process.

We are in OC and have the same experience you state above except we havent really had a younger kid ref yet. We have noticed the older the ref is the closer they sit to the center spot and less they move and the fewer calls they make. The bare minimum should be for these individuals to be able to keep up with the play and stay with it not sending geriatrics to the field to stand around for $66 an hour.

We had a breakaway in a game a couple weeks ago where the opposition player grabbed our boys shirt from the neck at the back and then slammed him to the ground. No card was given (last player with a clear run on goal) and the opposition coach and parents are cheering the play on. No card given, no sanction or write up by the referee for the coach or parents, not even a let me take a minute and talk to them and say that this is not ok. Instead at 8-1 or so after a 15 minutes in the referee unilaterally decides to cut each half short by 20% because he is running late and there is no point to play longer in his opinion.

Good to know though that im not the only parent that feels like something is amiss in the 7 v 7 league.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Seems like your experience has been the same as ours and appreciate the info on prepping for 9 v 9 and 11 v 11 thought process.

We are in OC and have the same experience you state above except we havent really had a younger kid ref yet. We have noticed the older the ref is the closer they sit to the center spot and less they move and the fewer calls they make. The bare minimum should be for these individuals to be able to keep up with the play and stay with it not sending geriatrics to the field to stand around for $66 an hour.

We had a breakaway in a game a couple weeks ago where the opposition player grabbed our boys shirt from the neck at the back and then slammed him to the ground. No card was given (last player with a clear run on goal) and the opposition coach and parents are cheering the play on. No card given, no sanction or write up by the referee for the coach or parents, not even a let me take a minute and talk to them and say that this is not ok. Instead at 8-1 or so after a 15 minutes in the referee unilaterally decides to cut each half short by 20% because he is running late and there is no point to play longer in his opinion.

Good to know though that im not the only parent that feels like something is amiss in the 7 v 7 league.

San Diego refs tend to be more aggressive about calling fouls. But, this is a double edge sword because when SD teams play in LA they're not used to getting away with all the ageession.

After a while players figure out what works with different refs.

 

[chipmonk]

Seems like your experience has been the same as ours and appreciate the info on prepping for 9 v 9 and 11 v 11 thought process.

We are in OC and have the same experience you state above except we havent really had a younger kid ref yet. We have noticed the older the ref is the closer they sit to the center spot and less they move and the fewer calls they make. The bare minimum should be for these individuals to be able to keep up with the play and stay with it not sending geriatrics to the field to stand around for $66 an hour.

We had a breakaway in a game a couple weeks ago where the opposition player grabbed our boys shirt from the neck at the back and then slammed him to the ground. No card was given (last player with a clear run on goal) and the opposition coach and parents are cheering the play on. No card given, no sanction or write up by the referee for the coach or parents, not even a let me take a minute and talk to them and say that this is not ok. Instead at 8-1 or so after a 15 minutes in the referee unilaterally decides to cut each half short by 20% because he is running late and there is no point to play longer in his opinion.

Good to know though that im not the only parent that feels like something is amiss in the 7 v 7 league.

Just a heads up, it doesn’t get much better at the older ages unless you pay for one of more expensive and closed leagues. There’s a ref shortage for sure. The refs aren’t much more qualified at the older ages as the kids get more intentionally violent and racist.

 

[Grace T.]

Welcome to the club!

Many of us have been complaining about the same type of things for several years.

I don't know why refs don't blow their whistle more. For the younger kids that are refs I get it, giving cards out is difficult especially when it involves a parent. For the adults that ref its shamefull when you don't hand out cards + control the game + protect the players. My experience with refs is the ones in LA and older Latin men tend to let the most go during the game. Seems like a macho thing or they just don't care.

As you get older the refs will get better but they're still afraid to give cards. We have a forward that has literally been slide tackled in the box in 1on1s with the goalie MULTIPLE TIMES to the point they had to come off the field + no cards given. One time the same forward beat the goalie 1on1 to goal so the goalie literally ran up and tackled them like in American Football (should have been an instant red) no card was given.

Regarding under 7 ages + who plays + competitiveness of the teams, nobody cares. At this age the clubs that do care are recruiting from everyone else + preparing for 9v9 and 11v11. Top Futsal teams do care about scores and talent at this age.

Referees are discouraged from giving cards at the very youngest ages. Even in the middle school ages they are discouraged from pulling a red. Rightly or wrongly, the rationale is that the kids are young with little body control and are still learning. At these very young ages, the instruction is for the referee to have a discussion with the coach to rein in the child with the inappropriate behavior.

 

[Grace T.]

I am a new parent in US Club Soccer world. I grew up overseas and the systems were very different to what we see here. I have several questions and was hoping for some honest unbiased feedback:

SoCal league appears to be the only relatively functional system in our area right now. The others as seen from multiple threads have died of or are basically splinter organizations. However, SoCal Soccer League seems to have no oversight and/or systems in place to register teams accurately. Currently, they have both a U8 and U7 league for Fall. In the U8 brackets they have over 150 teams registered with more than 40% of them being U7/U6 teams.

(a) Why are they allowing teams that are the wrong age group to register? This appears to be an automatic rejection that can be plugged in to GotSport but they dont use it?
(b) Is there some valid reasoning to this?

The 7 vs 7 brackets are also now closed in looking at results (granted you can still retrieve them with a little common sense from gotsport) and the League is not going to recognize winners / runners up or acknowledge the performance of any team.

(c) Considering we pay the league fees, managers/coaches enter the scores, we print the teams sheets for the referee, pay the referee fees for each game, provide corner flags etc - what does the League do? Isnt this equivalent to us hiring and paying someone to do a job only for them to come over and watch you do the job your self? The entire 7 vs 7 section are glorified friendlies with with majority of the teams wrongly bracketed and/or even allowed to play club instead of having them play in a recreational league.

(d) Given that so many teams are wrongly registered in each age bracket and flight what kind of oversight is there on an organization like this to prevent abuse of children and parents from clubs and the league just milking them for their money? Looking at all the scores in many of the U8 and U9 brackets there only appears to 1 maybe 2 out of every 9/10 teams that actually should be in club soccer.

(e) Lastly, but most importantly given that SoCal Soccer never has any representatives at games and dont want to listen to feedback from Coaches / Managers who watches out for teams flagrantly violating the league rules especially those related around other coaches screaming and berating their own players?

Any feedback or insight in the world of club soccer at this age, league, systems etc is much appreciated!

To give you a little historical background, 4-5 years ago US soccer looked at these ages and concluded the keeping of scores and standings should be discouraged. The reason is standings cause some distortions in the game. The question of winning at age 7 or 8 is generally a question in a 7v7 field of who has the oldest, largest players capable of running the fastest past other players and kicking the ball really strong into the goal. It's all physical, none of it tactical, as the players don't have the mental development to comprehend. That caused some distortions in the teaching of the game, such as teaching players to connect passes, because ultimately soccer is a game of mistakes. If you are teaching 7 year olds to connect 5 passes up to goal, somewhere along the way someone is going to make a mistake and give up a goal. Whereas if you just boot the ball up the field to the strongest, fastest player who can outrun the defense, it's easier to score.

Southern California used to be dominated by Coast soccer league even less than a decade ago, which league had promotion and relegation. The problem is that promotion and relegation had the same distorting effects. Because for a club to get flight 1 was absolutely necessary in order to be set up for the promotions to letter league that happened later on as the kids got older. SoCal Soccer in response had self sorting, which ultimately was more popular because the clubs didn't have the overwhelming pressure to win.

There's been a bit of a cyclical shift in US soccer where we went from everyone gets a trophy, everyone plays together AYSO type soccer in the 90s to a huge explosion in club soccer at the turn of the century with an emphasis on tournaments and trophies. We are currently in a shift somewhere back to the middle which weeks to balance the two ends of the spectrum, but the reforms and reflection seem to have been distorted by a) the COVID pandemic, b) all the attention focused on MLS Next on the boys side, and c) the decision that a lot of our development is going to be directed towards overseas in Europe (which has provided some substantial results on the US Men's side).

I agree with others you are taking this too seriously. U8 is a time for field players to develop meaningful skills that will serve them in the transition to letter league. If things are too easy for your team, the coach made a mistake and should have played you up.

p.s. England right....either that or Russia?.....

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

(a) Currently 180 teams in the U8 bracket in SoCal soccer league with at least 60 "age-pure" by definition. My suggestions wasnt that they need to be age pure but at least majority of the right age. at least 7 of the roster should be the right age to field a full team. The average roster size is approximately 9 per team that equates to which is over 1600 players with at least 800 of them the right age. Thats enough for 66 teams and if broken in to flights 4 very competitive flights of 15+ in each bracket. Im sorry but your argument of not enough players just doesnt hold true.

You didn't account for geography. That alone splits the available player pool by 4 or 5 in each area for SoCal, and not necessarily evenly. Mandating that each team in each individual area has at least 7 of the right age isn't an impossibility - it just would be unlikely to address the actual problems you've shared. There would still be embarrassingly weak teams of all the right age, and very competitive teams with the bare minimum of "of-age" players. And keep in mind, some of the strongest teams are all a year younger than most of the teams they are playing. The attempt is to have multiple flights at different levels of perceived competitiveness, and DOCs/coaches use whatever history and experience they have to try and get their teams into brackets that make the most sense, providing reasonable development for the kids in their club.

(c) not sure how facts come of as cluelessly arrogant.

Facts are facts, by definition. They don't come of as arrogant or come of as anything really, they are just facts. Unless they are misapplied and/or are missing key context.

This is cluelessly arrogant:

Also the referees they send out most cant even be called referees

The sample bracket you posted isn't an outlier in youth soccer. It doesn't change much all the way up the age groups, and all the way to the most competitive brackets in ECNL/GA/whatever. There is almost always an extremely dominant team or two, and there is almost always an incredibly feeble team or two - and everyone else makes up the middle. The same questions arise in each instance - for the next season the top teams should be advanced to the next more challenging bracket, and the bottom teams should question whether they are being bracketed properly. best case - there is a more competitive bracket available of the same age; next best case - the bracket 1 year up is a better fit for that particular team. Yes, the raw GD is quite large at the very young ages, but the end W/L results aren't much different. In the big picture, the scores and even the results for the littles just don't matter terribly, which is probably why SoCal hides them from public view anyway.

 

[Grace T.]

The sample bracket you posted isn't an outlier in youth soccer. It doesn't change much all the way up the age groups, and all the way to the most competitive brackets in ECNL/GA/whatever. There is almost always an extremely dominant team or two, and there is almost always an incredibly feeble team or two - and everyone else makes up the middle. The same questions arise in each instance - for the next season the top teams should be advanced to the next more challenging bracket, and the bottom teams should question whether they are being bracketed properly. best case - there is a more competitive bracket available of the same age; next best case - the bracket 1 year up is a better fit for that particular team. Yes, the raw GD is quite large at the very young ages, but the end W/L results aren't much different. In the big picture, the scores and even the results for the littles just don't matter terribly, which is probably why SoCal hides them from public view anyway.

Part of the problem is that the skills are largely player, not team based and the churn of club soccer. If you are one of those teams that are blowing out the competition, you probably have a few players on your team (most likely in the key roles down the spine) that should be playing up in age or level and are not developing as a result from playing at the top of their bracket. If you are at the bottom of the level, you may have a player or two for whom the level is appropriate but it's not for the remainder (my kid was on a team like that once...he and two teammates are playing letter league but almost everyone else has stopped playing...all it takes is a bad CB that doesn't cover or track back and it's easy to get a blow out if the other team has a decent striker since the kids are too small at those ages to cover the goal). The coach may not know who stays and who is coming until a few weeks before league begins (in letter league that window is now just about only 6 weeks but they have a more open recruitment policy at the highest levels). My opinion is the sorting problem in youth soccer is probably our biggest issue, and it's all wrapped up in age lines, some of the corruption and politics in club soccer, early/late bloomers, and the fractured leagues.

 

[Rhyser]

You didn't account for geography. That alone splits the available player pool by 4 or 5 in each area for SoCal, and not necessarily evenly. Mandating that each team in each individual area has at least 7 of the right age isn't an impossibility - it just would be unlikely to address the actual problems you've shared. There would still be embarrassingly weak teams of all the right age, and very competitive teams with the bare minimum of "of-age" players. And keep in mind, some of the strongest teams are all a year younger than most of the teams they are playing. The attempt is to have multiple flights at different levels of perceived competitiveness, and DOCs/coaches use whatever history and experience they have to try and get their teams into brackets that make the most sense, providing reasonable development for the kids in their club.

i am happy to do a clear breakdown if you like and break it down by county if you like. However the facts and math is pretty straightforward and simple. The team data is all available on GotSport. Yes you can say there wont be enough teams but that depends on what you believe to be enough. Do we really need 300 teams in the U9 bracket or 180 teams in the U8 bracket? You have also provided the solution to one of the problem you raise by requiring so many zones/areas in the SoCal region. Nobody is stating that all teams have to be extremely strong but shouldnt there be oversight to see if the teams actually should even be in playing club ? You further emphasize my point that SoCal Soccer League uses the brackets and flight for "perceived competitiveness" instead of actual competition or progress. The majority of coaches/clubs i have seen use the lack of League oversight to oversell the sport and the childs ability to the parents to fill teams for the sake of putting out a team and increasing revenue. That is the definition of exploitation.

Facts are facts, by definition. They don't come of as arrogant or come of as anything really, they are just facts. Unless they are misapplied and/or are missing key context.

This is cluelessly arrogant:

Again you make a statement insinuating your higher moral ground with no substance behind it. Please show me what fact is misapplied and what key context is missing.

The sample bracket you posted isn't an outlier in youth soccer. It doesn't change much all the way up the age groups, and all the way to the most competitive brackets in ECNL/GA/whatever. There is almost always an extremely dominant team or two, and there is almost always an incredibly feeble team or two - and everyone else makes up the middle. The same questions arise in each instance - for the next season the top teams should be advanced to the next more challenging bracket, and the bottom teams should question whether they are being bracketed properly. best case - there is a more competitive bracket available of the same age; next best case - the bracket 1 year up is a better fit for that particular team. Yes, the raw GD is quite large at the very young ages, but the end W/L results aren't much different. In the big picture, the scores and even the results for the littles just don't matter terribly, which is probably why SoCal hides them from public view anyway.

The problem is advancing to the next bracket/flight the following year with no oversight perpetuates the problem. Nothing is stopping the clubs from moving even their poorly performing teams up. Some clubs have a policy of always fielding a flight 1 / 2 team even if they dont have the player base for it. You are basically highlighting and accepting the issue as norm and condoning SoCal Soccer League behaviour instead of looking at te actual problem and potential solutions. Also stating that results dont matter to children is an extremely naive perspective. I can provide you with ample justification, all factual and clinical that supports how the way the league is handling both the top teams and condoning the weaker teams registration for near guaranteed losses coupled with no oversight both builds terrible foundations of reality for the winning teams at that age as well as destroys the self worth / self belief of the kids on the losing side. Wins and losses are both normal and everyone learns from both, sometimes more from losses than wins but this system is an injustice to our kids rather than anything else. My guess is SoCal hides the scores not for the reason you suggest but to hide the fact that they are not supporting the development of these kids or the sport and keep their profits maximised.

 

[Rhyser]

To give you a little historical background, 4-5 years ago US soccer looked at these ages and concluded the keeping of scores and standings should be discouraged. The reason is standings cause some distortions in the game. The question of winning at age 7 or 8 is generally a question in a 7v7 field of who has the oldest, largest players capable of running the fastest past other players and kicking the ball really strong into the goal. It's all physical, none of it tactical, as the players don't have the mental development to comprehend. That caused some distortions in the teaching of the game, such as teaching players to connect passes, because ultimately soccer is a game of mistakes. If you are teaching 7 year olds to connect 5 passes up to goal, somewhere along the way someone is going to make a mistake and give up a goal. Whereas if you just boot the ball up the field to the strongest, fastest player who can outrun the defense, it's easier to score.

Southern California used to be dominated by Coast soccer league even less than a decade ago, which league had promotion and relegation. The problem is that promotion and relegation had the same distorting effects. Because for a club to get flight 1 was absolutely necessary in order to be set up for the promotions to letter league that happened later on as the kids got older. SoCal Soccer in response had self sorting, which ultimately was more popular because the clubs didn't have the overwhelming pressure to win.

There's been a bit of a cyclical shift in US soccer where we went from everyone gets a trophy, everyone plays together AYSO type soccer in the 90s to a huge explosion in club soccer at the turn of the century with an emphasis on tournaments and trophies. We are currently in a shift somewhere back to the middle which weeks to balance the two ends of the spectrum, but the reforms and reflection seem to have been distorted by a) the COVID pandemic, b) all the attention focused on MLS Next on the boys side, and c) the decision that a lot of our development is going to be directed towards overseas in Europe (which has provided some substantial results on the US Men's side).

I agree with others you are taking this too seriously. U8 is a time for field players to develop meaningful skills that will serve them in the transition to letter league. If things are too easy for your team, the coach made a mistake and should have played you up.

p.s. England right....either that or Russia?.....

This is huge and informative. Defintely helps put a lot of the issues in to perspective.

My only question for you on this is how does non-competitive league play help develop meaningful skills for the player and/or team? Also how does playing up solve the same problem of unprepared teams registered in the older brackets too. Everyone seems to admit this is a known commodity and that playing up is a potential solution but that doesnt stop or solve the issue where the League still isnt doing anything to fix it nor does it prevent clubs/coaches from randomly placing their teams in to any age group or flight.

About the serious part, for me the welfare, growth and development of my children both as individuals and athletes (if they chose to pursue sport) is of paramount important. If I am not serious about what is being offered and what there are being subject to then i am failing as a parent. Any question about a childs development should be a serious topic and if we as parents dont stand up to improve the deficiencies in the systems they have access to, who is going to?

 

[Rhyser]

Part of the problem is that the skills are largely player, not team based and the churn of club soccer. If you are one of those teams that are blowing out the competition, you probably have a few players on your team (most likely in the key roles down the spine) that should be playing up in age or level and are not developing as a result from playing at the top of their bracket. If you are at the bottom of the level, you may have a player or two for whom the level is appropriate but it's not for the remainder (my kid was on a team like that once...he and two teammates are playing letter league but almost everyone else has stopped playing...all it takes is a bad CB that doesn't cover or track back and it's easy to get a blow out if the other team has a decent striker since the kids are too small at those ages to cover the goal). The coach may not know who stays and who is coming until a few weeks before league begins (in letter league that window is now just about only 6 weeks but they have a more open recruitment policy at the highest levels). My opinion is the sorting problem in youth soccer is probably our biggest issue, and it's all wrapped up in age lines, some of the corruption and politics in club soccer, early/late bloomers, and the fractured leagues.

I think this speaks volumes to the larger issue. Hoping we can find better processes and setups for our kids and others wanting to play / learn / develop in the future too!

 

[Jamisfoes]

The only solution is to get your kid on a flight 1 team.

 

[Grace T.]

This is huge and informative. Defintely helps put a lot of the issues in to perspective.

My only question for you on this is how does non-competitive league play help develop meaningful skills for the player and/or team? Also how does playing up solve the same problem of unprepared teams registered in the older brackets too. Everyone seems to admit this is a known commodity and that playing up is a potential solution but that doesnt stop or solve the issue where the League still isnt doing anything to fix it nor does it prevent clubs/coaches from randomly placing their teams in to any age group or flight.

About the serious part, for me the welfare, growth and development of my children both as individuals and athletes (if they chose to pursue sport) is of paramount important. If I am not serious about what is being offered and what there are being subject to then i am failing as a parent. Any question about a childs development should be a serious topic and if we as parents dont stand up to improve the deficiencies in the systems they have access to, who is going to?

You have it backwards. The problem is that at the younger ages especially making competition and winning the center of things distorts the development of soccer in kids by encouraging coaches/clubs/parents to take short cuts.

Playing up in year/level is a fix because at the younger ages there is a huge difference in development between say a kid born in January of one year and December of the same year. There have been countless studies on this issue. So, even the weakest team in the U9 bracket is going to provide a world of difference in competition than the weakest team in the U8 bracket. If your team is still so amazing that it's still powering through the U9 bracket, well that's the joy of self sorting...keeping moving up in level/age until you get some competition (and the parents begin to complain for why aren't we winning all our games anymore).

As for the serious part, again at this age it doesn't matter. When things begin to get serious are the year before letter league. Until then it doesn't matter. There's an expression I throw around here: you can have your soccer developmental, competitive, or accessible (pick 2).

BTW you have correctly identified a problem with self sorting. Soccereconomics has a chapter on how the best games are those when you team has an 80% probability of winning. It's why the EPL work. The bigger self sorting problem, especially once all the serious kids have spun off to letter league, is persuading those teams that are wrecking the competition to move up and win less, which is where the efforts of SoCal league are sort of focused.