7 vs 7 questions for SoCal League

[Grace T.]

Thanks for the link, those rates are a little higher than here but in the ballpark. If the youngest ages pay $120 / game it's probably 60 for the center and 30 for each AR. Maybe 50 / 35 / 35. 60 minute halves plus HT plus time between games ... if you do 3 solo games you're making $198 for 4.5 hours or $44/per. Less if you're doing ARs.

Lots of good points in this thread - referee shortages are everywhere. Why? Bad behavior / low pay. The most experienced refs are doing MLS Next / ECNL / GA. Next tier are doing U17 - U19 State League. Next tier are doing U 14 - U16. Next tier is doing U13 - U11. By the time you get to U9 / U10 solos you're likely getting very new refs. There is very little infrastructure for training and development (not enough $$$ to build that system) and what exists targets the upper tier. We try to partner new ARs with experienced centers but there aren't enough higher level refs that want to do U12 and younger. So the new folks get thrown out there.

But is there much going on during the average U9 game that requires a top level ref? My experience says no. I think I've done ~10 solo 7v7s lifetime so small sample size. I've done way more U11 / U12 ... in seven years I can remember violent conduct in U12 or younger exactly once. OP makes it sound like every game is full of broken limbs, punches and mayhem. In my world, not so. As a parent, if you're yelling at a U10 ref about a throw in, foul, handling, or anything else you're doing something incredibly wrong.

Lots of debate in ref world about giving cards at younger ages. Some state associations explicitly tell you not to. We don't have a rule like that here but it's pretty rare. More common is to tell the coach, "Hey, can you tell #13 to play in a more safe manner?" "Coach, #13 is done for the day but you don't have to play a person short" gets used on rare occasions. As mentioned, there's just not much going on out there. Kids are more clumsy than anything and don't have the mass / can't generate enough force to do real damage on most occasions. I can count the # of serious injuries at all ages on two hands over ~ 1,800 games. If your particular player got hurt during a game, that sucks (my DD broke her leg during a scrimmage, although that was a fair tackle). It happens. But pretty rare.

Are there that many coaches out there with a Cobra Kai "sweep the leg" mentality? At that age group? I'm sure they do exist but I don't believe the problem is widespread. I can think of maybe 2 or 3 comments from coaches that crossed the line over the years. OP suggests this is every other week.

Maybe there is a bad actor out there as described, I have no reason to doubt you. I just don't think it's common. I would imagine the parents of the U7 screamer coach you described wouldn't stick around for very long.

Last thing - if you're at a match where you believe your child is in danger - because of the physical nature of the game, the inaction of the ref, the nasty behavior of the other coach, whatever - grab your kid and get the F out of there. If your house was burning down would you complain how slow the fire department was?

No easy solutions. Putting more money into the system would help but that comes from parents who already have a heavy financial burden.

I wouldn’t describe the behavior as common but I’ve seen quite a bit to know the op has a point about it. The behavior in d&d terms would be described not as “rare” or “common” but rather “uncommon”

I’ve seen it both as a ref and against my player. Once when he was 9 he was up against a Latino team with the coach constantly yelling at his players “bajen Los”…take ‘em down. Physicality is an integral part of the Mexican style of play but unless it is taught properly it can degenerate into just low skilled violence. Once saw a coach instruct the players to force the opposing striker out of the game by targeting him for an injury but thankfully my cr was on top of it and wound up ejecting the coach. More common in Latino teams but my kids first club year also went up against an Anglo team that was instructed to just shove kids out of the way and the ref was a “let ‘em play” ref so the game just degenerated into a shoving match and players slide tackling into each other…several were hurt including my kid, one somewhat seriously. Given the players have low body control at that age it can be dangerous but you are right they are more bendy and less body mass being thrown at them. Still, while soccer is a contact sport (and parents need to understand that) at the same time they didn’t sign up their kids for rugby or peewee football. And the concussion protocols in place have made folks hyper vigilant.

As to hanging out with a screamer you’d be surprised. I once volunteered for no pay to ar a game that was short a ref because I just happened to be there. Coach constantly berated his players, berated other team, berated me, berated the cr. Parents hung with the guy for several years despite being obviously ashamed of his behavior because he won. Manager even apologized to me and the crew afterwards but wouldn’t say boo to the coach for fear of getting her kid benched.

 

[espola]

I wouldn’t describe the behavior as common but I’ve seen quite a bit to know the op has a point about it. The behavior in d&d terms would be described not as “rare” or “common” but rather “uncommon”

I’ve seen it both as a ref and against my player. Once when he was 9 he was up against a Latino team with the coach constantly yelling at his players “bajen Los”…take ‘em down. Physicality is an integral part of the Mexican style of play but unless it is taught properly it can degenerate into just low skilled violence. Once saw a coach instruct the players to force the opposing striker out of the game by targeting him for an injury but thankfully my cr was on top of it and wound up ejecting the coach. More common in Latino teams but my kids first club year also went up against an Anglo team that was instructed to just shove kids out of the way and the ref was a “let ‘em play” ref so the game just degenerated into a shoving match and players slide tackling into each other…several were hurt including my kid, one somewhat seriously. Given the players have low body control at that age it can be dangerous but you are right they are more bendy and less body mass being thrown at them. Still, while soccer is a contact sport (and parents need to understand that) at the same time they didn’t sign up their kids for rugby or peewee football. And the concussion protocols in place have made folks hyper vigilant.

As to hanging out with a screamer you’d be surprised. I once volunteered for no pay to ar a game that was short a ref because I just happened to be there. Coach constantly berated his players, berated other team, berated me, berated the cr. Parents hung with the guy for several years despite being obviously ashamed of his behavior because he won. Manager even apologized to me and the crew afterwards but wouldn’t say boo to the coach for fear of getting her kid benched.

How many assumptions can we find in that post?

 

[Rhyser]

The biggest problem which is why, as a foreign born person, it's probably hitting you harder, is that there is a lot of bad behavior in American sports, and not just soccer. I agree with your earlier statement that there is a cultural problem with that (but again, don't even get my started on Mexico). If you are Indian, wait til your kid gets a little older and kids start calling him the N word (yeah, my kid has had to put up with that). That's a reality you will have to prepare for. My kid was assaulted in one game when he was younger and suspended when he fought back (the rules say he's just supposed to take his beating). Recently, a former teammate of his threatened to gang up on him with others in the parking lot and jump him....ref heard but did nothing other than call for security to walk my kid out. Welcome to America.

I am sorry you had to deal this. I have dealt with it myself being called all kind of names and my daughter had to deal with it from some parents and kids when she was 3 in pre-school. We have been talking to them about this since they both hit 3 years old. This is not just in America but all over the world. How we deal with here is just different.

- My impression is that your definition of "competition" (at least with regards to this particular topic) is different than most other peoples on this thread. Yours seems to be slightly more tied to results and declaring a champion rather that purely fair and balanced matches. I understand your argument regarding lopsided matches and its not a perfect system. To my knowledge SOCAL will use this years results to flight for next year but again its not a perfect system, especially which I would say year to year any given team has an attrition rate of 20-30% which can greatly affect a team

My definition of competition is both tied to fair and balanced matches and declaring a champion. SOCAL doesnt flight any team, the clubs and coaches can elect to place their team in any flight they want. SOCAL only brackets them after you chose the age/flight registration. Thats partially why we have the lopsided matches. No oversight on teams prior performance.

The refs hands are tied here. Again the instruction for kids at this youngest age is that they are supposed to ask the coach for the players to be substituted and not eject/show cards. If the coach refused, the referee probably did/should have reported it to the league, but it's unlikely that the league would do anything since they don't really have any power anyways. The higher you go, the more the leagues have power but it becomes quite the scandal when a league or coach becomes removed (see what happened with Socal Elite) including the possibility of lawsuits so they'll only act if there is a clear and egregious breach that can be justified to the lawyers.

You are highlighting another reality which is there are a lot of dirtball coaches out there. Those dirtball coaches get stuck with the younger and lower level teams, for the most part. It gets better once they get into the older letter league brackets, but there are exceptions. As you get older and higher the experience gets better (not great, just better from the hellscape you find yourself in now).

This feels a little like a cop out. The refs hands are not tied, the refs just refuse to act in my experience. On top of that the league refuses to take action even with video evidence. Saying the league doesnt have power is also untrue as they can easily suspend the coach/club or even do more but they CHOOSE to do nothing. The bigger scandal than Socal Elite and more so harm will happen when a team/parents/club decide to SoCal Soccer League to the cleaners for inaction and misdirection of referees. I suspect that isnt far away given the way these games are being refereed.

At least in my area as I said earlier 7v 7 and 9v9 are single ref 30 min halves at $66. 10 min half time, and if your lucky 15 in between games. So in a 3 hour block 2 games about $42/hour

That isnt how you count hourly pay. You only get paid for the time you are on the clock. 2 games - 140 minutes (30 minutes 2x halves and 10 min half time) = $56.57 and hour, i rounded when i said 60 an hour. When you go to work you dont start your 8 hour day from the time you leave your door to the time you get back home to calculate your hourly pay. Similarly you cant count the time in between games. I worked as a referee for 4 years through college in SoCal. Refereeing youth and adult leagues. I did this at a much lower rate as it was 20 years ago and i was still making a couple grand a month with it being a side gig. Yes the shortage is real and maybe we need to pay more but while we have incompetence being allowed and supplied by the league who is going to pay more?

Lots of debate in ref world about giving cards at younger ages. Some state associations explicitly tell you not to. We don't have a rule like that here but it's pretty rare. More common is to tell the coach, "Hey, can you tell #13 to play in a more safe manner?" "Coach, #13 is done for the day but you don't have to play a person short" gets used on rare occasions. As mentioned, there's just not much going on out there. Kids are more clumsy than anything and don't have the mass / can't generate enough force to do real damage on most occasions. I can count the # of serious injuries at all ages on two hands over ~ 1,800 games. If your particular player got hurt during a game, that sucks (my DD broke her leg during a scrimmage, although that was a fair tackle). It happens. But pretty rare.

From March of this year our team has suffered 2x concussions, 5x intentional stamps on the face (which we have on tape with coach complementing his players on it) and numerous dangerous plays (not clumsy - i am discounting those completely) egged on by the teams coach and parents. These are just the physical injuries. The ones that are worse are the psychological ones from what the opposition coaches and parents yell. I do not define referee/league inaction as limited to physical injuries but psychological and physical. At this age the phycological damage can be far worse than any physical injury that the other player can inflict. Also i am not just saying this on behalf of my child/team but on behalf of those parets like some have mentioned fear their kid being benched, not fully aware of their options or the odd one out on the team that notices the issue but is in the minority to speak up.

Last thing - if you're at a match where you believe your child is in danger - because of the physical nature of the game, the inaction of the ref, the nasty behavior of the other coach, whatever - grab your kid and get the F out of there. If your house was burning down would you complain how slow the fire department was?

Completely agree and we have done that. This doesnt solve the problem though when you are playing in a league and then tournaments where the same teams come up against you. You can chose to forfeit but that only benefits the guilty team. Action should and needs to be taken / forced to be taken by the league or tournament host in each of these cases. But if everyone refuses to document and take action the subsequent host can be provided with previous documentation of the problem.

The fundamental difference, though, is that an academy in Europe can profit off of the eventual sale / transfer of a player and this cannot happen with US clubs. The only income the clubs make is what you pay for the year. This incentivizes European academies to develop good players (so they can sell them... eventually). In the US, the incentive is to get as many kids in your club as possible.

This eventual sale profit was made illegal in EU for contracts signed by parents on behalf of minors. I described this in some detail earlier. Clubs can have the same profit/commitment structure in the US as well as seen by the Kimbraugh contract at 13. Just because clubs havent caught on or chose not that shouldnt be used as an excuse. At the end of the day i am not faulting the clubs as i have stated on multiple occasions for being capitalist but i am saying the League needs to be better at regulation on several fronts.

Also I, even as a ref myself, share your frustration with mobility, minimum standards etc, but there is a referee shortage across all sports, mainly because of parent behavior. I know its a 2 way street but recruitment will be difficult until that changes. SOCAL is at least making an effeort to curtail ref abuse, you can now nicley see on the legue websity a weekly list of red card suspensions and its not a wonder why we have a shortage.

This is the first i have heard of the red card list but cannot seem to find it anywhere on the site. If you have a link that would be great. The question is it even being enforced. At least 1 out 4 referees dont even bother verify player cards let alone check coach/parent cards in 7vs7.

 

[RedDevil24]

My definition of competition is both tied to fair and balanced matches and declaring a champion. SOCAL doesnt flight any team, the clubs and coaches can elect to place their team in any flight they want. SOCAL only brackets them after you chose the age/flight registration. Thats partially why we have the lopsided matches. No oversight on teams prior performance.

Again as I mentioned in the same post your gripe is more with US Soccer/US Club Soccer that with SOCAL, because it is their directives that are leading the leagues to hide/not post the scores. As I said I just quickly glanced at NORCAL and AZ and their's is the same.

For first year brackets their are no prior performances to go by. The only solution would be to have sort of massive pre-season tournament and base the flighting on that. I know for subsequent seasons the league (at least the used to ) use previous seasons results for the following season bracketing--I think you could petition to be re-bracketed if Im not mistaken

That isnt how you count hourly pay. You only get paid for the time you are on the clock. 2 games - 140 minutes (30 minutes 2x halves and 10 min half time) = $56.57 and hour, i rounded when i said 60 an hour. When you go to work you dont start your 8 hour day from the time you leave your door to the time you get back home to calculate your hourly pay. Similarly you cant count the time in between games. I worked as a referee for 4 years through college in SoCal. Refereeing youth and adult leagues. I did this at a much lower rate as it was 20 years ago and i was still making a couple grand a month with it being a side gig. Yes the shortage is real and maybe we need to pay more but while we have incompetence being allowed and supplied by the league who is going to pay more?

I was not quoting pay rates for IRS or fiscal purposes.... I am just simply saying when a current (or perspective) referee and the say to themselves"Is it worth it?" I promise you this is what they look at

Here's and example... Happens all the time in my assn. Someone drops and the assignor says I have an AR position that pays $45. Its just a single game that's available. Well our assn mandates we arrive 30 min before that game to inspect the field and allow for adequate time for check in etc. 60 min game, 10 min HT. So that's 1:40 for single game. That's the time I have to be there. So in reality its about $27.

My point is its not always as enticing as it seems.

This is the first i have heard of the red card list but cannot seem to find it anywhere on the site. If you have a link that would be great. The question is it even being enforced. At least 1 out 4 referees don't even bother verify player cards let alone check coach/parent cards in 7vs7.

I will wee if I can attach the list, but for future. https://www.socalsoccerleague.org/, Resources, and its the frst on the list. This is just coaches and spectators.

BTW I agree enforcement is a mess. Problem is that the leagues allow photos and digital cards, and cards are no longer pulled by refers for RC offenses. And you can write in names day of the game. I would personally like to see game sheets frozen at midnight the night before a game.
Fines are pretty heavy if someone skirts a card but I am sure with lack of a better oversight system. We (refs) are supposed to keep a copy of all match rpeorts and I guess they can always retroactively enforce a fina and suspension.

And quickly to your point about checkin and cards. Part of the problem is that clubs schedule games so close together and the referees are in such a bind to stay on time (oftem because later they have to get to another field) that I am not surprised some do not check in the correct way.

 

[Grace T.]

I am sorry you had to deal this. I have dealt with it myself being called all kind of names and my daughter had to deal with it from some parents and kids when she was 3 in pre-school. We have been talking to them about this since they both hit 3 years old. This is not just in America but all over the world. How we deal with here is just different.


My definition of competition is both tied to fair and balanced matches and declaring a champion. SOCAL doesnt flight any team, the clubs and coaches can elect to place their team in any flight they want. SOCAL only brackets them after you chose the age/flight registration. Thats partially why we have the lopsided matches. No oversight on teams prior performance.


This feels a little like a cop out. The refs hands are not tied, the refs just refuse to act in my experience. On top of that the league refuses to take action even with video evidence. Saying the league doesnt have power is also untrue as they can easily suspend the coach/club or even do more but they CHOOSE to do nothing. The bigger scandal than Socal Elite and more so harm will happen when a team/parents/club decide to SoCal Soccer League to the cleaners for inaction and misdirection of referees. I suspect that isnt far away given the way these games are being refereed.


That isnt how you count hourly pay. You only get paid for the time you are on the clock. 2 games - 140 minutes (30 minutes 2x halves and 10 min half time) = $56.57 and hour, i rounded when i said 60 an hour. When you go to work you dont start your 8 hour day from the time you leave your door to the time you get back home to calculate your hourly pay. Similarly you cant count the time in between games. I worked as a referee for 4 years through college in SoCal. Refereeing youth and adult leagues. I did this at a much lower rate as it was 20 years ago and i was still making a couple grand a month with it being a side gig. Yes the shortage is real and maybe we need to pay more but while we have incompetence being allowed and supplied by the league who is going to pay more?


From March of this year our team has suffered 2x concussions, 5x intentional stamps on the face (which we have on tape with coach complementing his players on it) and numerous dangerous plays (not clumsy - i am discounting those completely) egged on by the teams coach and parents. These are just the physical injuries. The ones that are worse are the psychological ones from what the opposition coaches and parents yell. I do not define referee/league inaction as limited to physical injuries but psychological and physical. At this age the phycological damage can be far worse than any physical injury that the other player can inflict. Also i am not just saying this on behalf of my child/team but on behalf of those parets like some have mentioned fear their kid being benched, not fully aware of their options or the odd one out on the team that notices the issue but is in the minority to speak up.


Completely agree and we have done that. This doesnt solve the problem though when you are playing in a league and then tournaments where the same teams come up against you. You can chose to forfeit but that only benefits the guilty team. Action should and needs to be taken / forced to be taken by the league or tournament host in each of these cases. But if everyone refuses to document and take action the subsequent host can be provided with previous documentation of the problem.


This eventual sale profit was made illegal in EU for contracts signed by parents on behalf of minors. I described this in some detail earlier. Clubs can have the same profit/commitment structure in the US as well as seen by the Kimbraugh contract at 13. Just because clubs havent caught on or chose not that shouldnt be used as an excuse. At the end of the day i am not faulting the clubs as i have stated on multiple occasions for being capitalist but i am saying the League needs to be better at regulation on several fronts.


This is the first i have heard of the red card list but cannot seem to find it anywhere on the site. If you have a link that would be great. The question is it even being enforced. At least 1 out 4 referees dont even bother verify player cards let alone check coach/parent cards in 7vs7.

I've got good news and bad news for you if you decide to stick with club soccer (and given everything you've said you may not want to). Good news first. If your kids is passionate about it and willing to put in the work, as he advances in age and level it gets better. The parents begin to relax a bit and realize the scores just aren't that important. The coaches aren't under as much tremendous pressure to win. You get a better class of referee. That said, it's not going to be perfect (they threatened to jump my kid a few weeks back and he needed a security escort).

The bad news is in the immediate future it's going to get worse. It's not a rare technique to see more unskilled teams lash out at more skilled teams as a way to keep the score level. There are systems of play, such as the Mexican style, that rely on physicality. There's a certain school of ref, called the "let 'em play" school, that doesn't believe the game should be overly disrupted for fouls that are trifling and they consider soccer a naturally physical game. The refs are overworked and don't want to find themselves in the middle of things with more paperwork when they are struggling just to go from game to game. The leagues are worried about lawsuits, and are reluctant to take action against their customers (which are the clubs, not the players) unless something is really egregious (again more paperwork, for which they don't have the staff, because they'll always be another side to the story that fights the ruling). Your kid will be called the N word, especially in southern California, again not frequently but also not rarely, sometimes from surprising directions (such as people of color and not just white people)...they'll say it in a way the ref doesn't overhear or in a way so the ref doesn't stop the game for a card. Many of the refs don't have the skill to manage a contentious game, which can quickly accelerate from minor fouls, to increasingly harder ones, to fights between players and even parents (yes there are now zero policy rules but it hasn't stopped it completely). The boys are going to get more mass, and their fuses shorter when the testosterone starts flowing. And the bad coaches are everywhere and if your kid is a skilled player that makes a difference in the game, they can be targeted...moreover the boys get more clever about the types of dirty play they can get away with or how to inflict maximum pain as they get smarter.

Worth it? Certainly not to me. Have been trying to get my player to quit for years. From the list of your many complaints (some of which is just impatience, or railing against certain difficult realities that you are just beginning to see as a newb, but this one in particular I regard as pretty legit), it may not be the right thing for you, and as others have pointed out, there are better options.

 

[Rhyser]

Again as I mentioned in the same post your gripe is more with US Soccer/US Club Soccer that with SOCAL, because it is their directives that are leading the leagues to hide/not post the scores. As I said I just quickly glanced at NORCAL and AZ and their's is the same.

For first year brackets their are no prior performances to go by. The only solution would be to have sort of massive pre-season tournament and base the flighting on that. I know for subsequent seasons the league (at least the used to ) use previous seasons results for the following season bracketing--I think you could petition to be re-bracketed if Im not mistaken

First of thanks for taking the time to help me break through this newb phase (you and everyone else here). I have checked with US Soccer actually there is no directive to hide scores. It seems to have become practice of of laziness and greater profits for the leagues.

I agree on the first year performances lack of info but the SOCAL league doesnt do anything for subsequent years either in the 7v7. it is still a free for all and you can register anywhere you want irrelevant of past performance. It would make sense for them to use previous season results but with them getting away with no repercussion for doing zilch why should they.

I was not quoting pay rates for IRS or fiscal purposes.... I am just simply saying when a current (or perspective) referee and the say to themselves"Is it worth it?" I promise you this is what they look at

Here's and example... Happens all the time in my assn. Someone drops and the assignor says I have an AR position that pays $45. Its just a single game that's available. Well our assn mandates we arrive 30 min before that game to inspect the field and allow for adequate time for check in etc. 60 min game, 10 min HT. So that's 1:40 for single game. That's the time I have to be there. So in reality its about $27.

My point is its not always as enticing as it seems.

this makes sense and i get it. at the same time if you want to make a profession it is possible and can net at least 2x the national income average.i averaged 60 to 70 hours a month in college refereeing games for 2k a month. only working 1 evening a week and weekends. The same amount of time now would net someone 3.5k to 4k a month as a side hustle. Whether or not that is valuable and worth it is a personal choice.

I will wee if I can attach the list, but for future. https://www.socalsoccerleague.org/, Resources, and its the frst on the list. This is just coaches and spectators.

BTW I agree enforcement is a mess. Problem is that the leagues allow photos and digital cards, and cards are no longer pulled by refers for RC offenses. And you can write in names day of the game. I would personally like to see game sheets frozen at midnight the night before a game.
Fines are pretty heavy if someone skirts a card but I am sure with lack of a better oversight system. We (refs) are supposed to keep a copy of all match rpeorts and I guess they can always retroactively enforce a fina and suspension.

And quickly to your point about checkin and cards. Part of the problem is that clubs schedule games so close together and the referees are in such a bind to stay on time (oftem because later they have to get to another field) that I am not surprised some do not check in the correct way.

Thanks for this....i checked all the sections except resources on the site....lol!

Personally i like the digital cards and no reason they cant be the norm. Get the ref to use his phone to pull the cards themselves from GS to verify. fill in the game sheet online and not have the coaches/managers do the work that the league and ref should be doing. I would be happy to pay the refs even double per game if i didnt have to get cash to them every game especially trying to go get change everytime. I have honestly given refs significantly more if they accept zelle/venmo/cashapp and saved me the hassle of getting change for the next game! Ideally include the ref fees in the league registration like a tournament.

The 7v7 refs here dont keep copies of game cards as they fill out a single sheet and hand it to the home team. Only reason i have copies is i have started taking pictures of the sheet if we are an away team. We have even had game sheets hand written becuase the ref dropped and stepped on the sheets tearing them.....he couldnt even bend over to pick up the torn pieces. Not sure how you can retroactively fine/suspend when the refs dont even care to write in the player numbers that score the goals. Half or more of sheets have tally marks for scores rather than player number and time.

The league games are not scheduled by the clubs but the league and in the 7v7 brackets in my experience the refs are always running late and dont care and that is purely down to their age and mobility and cannot move any faster.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

First of thanks for taking the time to help me break through this newb phase (you and everyone else here). I have checked with US Soccer actually there is no directive to hide scores. It seems to have become practice of of laziness and greater profits for the leagues.

You are still blinded by newbie rage. It only takes moments to show that what you're saying is completely wrong on its face. Here are the documents on the US Soccer page that may be of interest, if you're actually interested in understanding instead of raging. Take a beat, read a bit more, and realize that your opinions aren't just counter to what SoCal League is doing, but what US Soccer has been recommending for all youth leagues for almost 10 years now.

Here's the directory on US Soccer's page: https://www.usyouthsoccer.org/bylaws-policies-and-documents/

I've attached some relevant docs pulled from there that may be helpful. Here are some key screenshots:



and




Look at the one called Player-Development-Model-Oct-2013.pdf on their site, the PDF is too large to attach here.

Downplaying results / Hiding scores has absolutely zero to do with laziness for the league, or saving $8 on trophies. You continuing to repeat it cements the reality that you have no clue - and apparently little desire to find one.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

On a related note - I'd be interested in what the SoCal League's opinions would be about what you're doing with zapier.com to rebuild the scores table for U7 and sharing it widely to bypass the intention of the league. You can have your coach ask, or you (more realistically) should keep it on the down low rather than sharing how a team manager is breaking, if not league policies, the clear intent of the league's development goals for U7 teams.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Again as I mentioned in the same post your gripe is more with US Soccer/US Club Soccer that with SOCAL, because it is their directives that are leading the leagues to hide/not post the scores. As I said I just quickly glanced at NORCAL and AZ and their's is the same.

Thanks for this, I hadn't realized that NorCal had gone down a similar path - it looks like they are hiding U8 and below, and start to show results publicly at U9.

 

[RedDevil24]

The league games are not scheduled by the clubs but the league and in the 7v7 brackets in my experience the refs are always running late and dont care and that is purely down to their age and mobility and cannot move any faster.

No problem at all I have learned tons on this board.

Just a couple quick notes, I actually personally enjoy the digital player cards too, I was just more referring to the aspect of teams being able to skirt red cards. Even in the past when we used to keep cards for a red card offense, photo of cards were still accepted so there was nothing stopping from the player the next game using a photo of their card instead of their physical card.

You are partially right on the fact that the league schedules games. The league only takes it up to the point of scheduling opponents on a given date. There used to be an arithmetic formula that they used to have in the handbook which related to each club having to afford X amount of field space for whatever given number of teams that they had. If I’m not mistaken, I think now they have to make a certain number of Saturdays and Sundays available.

The league will then set the opponents, for example, team Aversus team B Saturday, October 7. It’s then up to the Home team team A to set the time and location. Which is why you will often say, for example a coach that has multiple teams have three consecutive games all on the same field on a given day.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

You are partially right on the fact that the league schedules games. The league only takes it up to the point of scheduling opponents on a given date. There used to be an arithmetic formula that they used to have in the handbook which related to each club having to afford X amount of field space for whatever given number of teams that they had. If I’m not mistaken, I think now they have to make a certain number of Saturdays and Sundays available.

The league will then set the opponents, for example, team Aversus team B Saturday, October 7. It’s then up to the Home team team A to set the time and location. Which is why you will often say, for example a coach that has multiple teams have three consecutive games all on the same field on a given day.

Yep - that's similar in all leagues we've been involved with. The league puts out a draft of the schedule listing which teams are playing which teams on what date - but with no time or place. The home team (typically the team manager), then needs to match those games to available field space given to them by their club (who obtains the field permits and availability info from the city or other body) at a specific time, to finalize the actual schedule. It usually works well for ~80% of the games, but there are always stragglers where it's necessary to go back and forth with the away team for weeks to find a date/time that works. The league then sets deadlines for when all games must be completed, and can apply pressure to teams that are not communicating properly to get the games scheduled/completed.

 

[TopesWin]

Could not agree more however if the referees are not reporting the issues and for the most part let the parents and coaches slide how is this ever oging to be corrected? I hope that if my kids continues to play as he get older we do see the improvement every one here mentions. That still shouldnt stop us from creating these standards to better safeguard the youngest brackets that appear to be shafted right now. And if that means reducing the number of games called "competitive" and making them recreational then so be it. To birds one stone.

Zero tolerance for ref abuse would be ideal, and it is doable, but......
Every so often, this or that league adopts a "zero tolerance" policy for ref abuse - and they always say something to the effect of "we really mean it." They tell the refs to throw people out upon the first instance of complaining. However, most old-timer refs wear it as a badge of honor that the abuse doesn't phase them, and they actually enjoy talking after the game about the crazy parents/coaches and their nonsense criticism. From my experience, it seems like part of the enjoyment for them. Then, the newby refs can be unsure of themselves when considering the fairly dramatic action of throwing someone out of their kids' soccer match. Especially when it's not clear which parent is the first one to shout or whether you actually heard what they said, etc. So it doesn't seem like it has worked so far. I'm unaware of any leagues who are currently enforcing a "zero tolerance" policy, despite the fact that all of them have instituted one in years past.

 

[TopesWin]

You are missing the fact that i have said from the start that a significant number of these games should even be deemed competitive and as such do not require a referee.

Then just schedule games with your kid and his school friends on the weekends. If your kid is great, and needs stiffer competition, invite the kids from the grade above him. That way you can control for the aspects of the crazy parents, the kids who can't stop with the tripping, etc. We did that when things were shut down for COVID and it was a blast.

 

[Karlton Athletic]

Just for the record, the English FA's youth guide (see Youth Football Guide download) doesn't suggest a competitive league until the U13/U14 level, and even then, it's optional. The younger ages are allowed occasional trophy events.

Youth football - Play & Participate | England Football

 

[TopesWin]

How would you address an opposition coach in a U7 game yelling at half time loud enough that your boys can hear what he is saying:

"Sit your a$$ down and wake tf up. if you look at your parents or start crying you will never play for any club again. i promise you that soccer will be the last thing you will want to do. go out there make sure you hurt the other team. make sure they know you are there. kick, punch slide do whatever you need to i dont care!"

Yes we wrote to the league via the club. this was just 1 of the many incidents from that game. the ref refused to act on anything. the players did end up punching our boys in the backs/neck and trying to slide them out of the game. The ref refused to write anything up and just asked the boys to be substituted till eventually he called the game early. The ref was not a kid or young individual, he was at least 50 years old so inexperience wasnt an excuse either.

SoCal Soccer didnt respond with anything. this happened the second time we played the same team/coach and the league still didnt do anything. not saying that this has happens every game but the league does absolutely nothing for the 7v7 from the looks of it and their code of conduct etc is as Grace puts it very eloquently puffery!

Maybe we are dealing with it incorrectly or missing some key elements but from our experience in general it is that bad.

Just get it on video and send it to the league. Otherwise, it's just your word against theirs. If nothing happens, post it to Youtube. There are lots of channels there that will post clips of insane parents, incompetent refs and violent fouls. It will get the league's attention, even if it ultimately gets taken down.

 

[TopesWin]

5x intentional stamps on the face (which we have on tape with coach complementing his players on it) and numerous dangerous plays (not clumsy - i am discounting those completely) egged on by the teams coach and parents.

Post the video - it would be a public service

 

[focomoso]

Just for the record, the English FA's youth guide (see Youth Football Guide download) doesn't suggest a competitive league until the U13/U14 level, and even then, it's optional. The younger ages are allowed occasional trophy events.

Youth football - Play & Participate | England Football

This! If I were king of US soccer, this is how I would do it at the younger ages. Get groups of kids together, enough to make at least 2 teams, preferably more, and have them practice together as a unit with multiple coaches and then you can break them up into teams for scrimmages. Nothing but that and futsal until about u14.

 

[Rhyser]

Just get it on video and send it to the league. Otherwise, it's just your word against theirs. If nothing happens, post it to Youtube. There are lots of channels there that will post clips of insane parents, incompetent refs and violent fouls. It will get the league's attention, even if it ultimately gets taken down.

It's on video and submitted to the League via our club with no action by the league. Posting online potentially prevents legal action if needed.

 

[TopesWin]

It's on video and submitted to the League via our club with no action by the league. Posting online potentially prevents legal action if needed.

If what you are saying is actually on video, and the league did nothing, then it needs to be posted here and on Youtube immediately to protect everyone from the culprits. If you're exaggerating or interpreting things that are actually debatable, then you could be exposing yourself to litigation by posting. In 1,000+ youth soccer games I've witnessed in my time as a parent, coach, ref, board member, I've never seen anything as bad as you describe. The place I've seen conduct like that is on Youtube videos, so I know it happens, but it's very uncommon.

 

[Rhyser]

You are still blinded by newbie rage. It only takes moments to show that what you're saying is completely wrong on its face. Here are the documents on the US Soccer page that may be of interest, if you're actually interested in understanding instead of raging. Take a beat, read a bit more, and realize that your opinions aren't just counter to what SoCal League is doing, but what US Soccer has been recommending for all youth leagues for almost 10 years now.

I appreciate the reference and have read these. It is possible i missed the directive from US Soccer on competitive play to be removed and diminished and/or played in a closed scoring system. I do see the Development Initiatives on coaching and development but did not come across anything that references my points.

Downplaying results / Hiding scores has absolutely zero to do with laziness for the league, or saving $8 on trophies. You continuing to repeat it cements the reality that you have no clue - and apparently little desire to find one.

My stance on laziness isnt solely based on the hidden scores and $8 trophies. It is the entire setup of the 7v7 system which i have justified on a few occasions in this thread. The only cost the SoCal Soccer League incurs for this is the use of the GS platform, approximately $8 per team per matchday, and a minimum wage employee initially setting up the brackets and. After that from what i have learnt here is updating a Red Card list weekly on their site. Outside of that there appears to be 0 expense and/or effort put in to the 7v7 bracket. This has been my experience in its totality. While i have gained a lot of valuable insight into youth soccer in the US and a lot of my assumptions/expectation curbed and a few changed based on the time everyone has put in to discuss this topic and educate me and hopefully some others, it doesnt change some of the things that are mismanaged / misrepresented / unaddressed by SoCal Soccer League and maybe US Soccer.

On a related note - I'd be interested in what the SoCal League's opinions would be about what you're doing with zapier.com to rebuild the scores table for U7 and sharing it widely to bypass the intention of the league. You can have your coach ask, or you (more realistically) should keep it on the down low rather than sharing how a team manager is breaking, if not league policies, the clear intent of the league's development goals for U7 teams.

I fail to see how any rule or intent is being broken and so does legal counsel. I appreciate your thought behind this but from a legal standing the only entity breaking any practice is SoCal Soccer League.