It certainly was ironic that self-anointed patriots were actually rooting against the USA in this World Cup. I think its a bit of an apples to oranges comparison 2014 to 2023. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall that any players on the 2014 USMNT had a previous history of using their position on the team as a platform to virtue signal their social causes. Some on the the USWNT did have that history, so many in the public didn't give them the benefit of the doubt when they were less than enthusiastic during the national anthem. Maybe they were like Clint and just focused on getting on the pitch to kick some ass, but that's tougher to conclude given prior behavior. I personally don't understand some of the vitriol that is directed towards Rapinoe.
WWC 2023
- Thread starter espola
- Start date
So not only is a lack of soccer culture an issue in the US, but apparently it's also because we have people that think singing (or not singing) has anything to do with how our teams perform internationally. Next thing you know we will start to blame chem trails. Looks like we got the big brains on this one.
Agree 100% with chopping heads. But who are you going to replace them with?
Pay to Play is so ingrained in US club and coaching cultures how would you get people to think differently?
Consider that Soccer Coaches aren't Business Ethics scholars. They've learned how business works on the fly by being forced into the meatgrinder at clubs. There's a good chance that many coaches see nothing wrong with Pay to Play. Many have likely benefitted from unethical behaviors.
It's more than not mouthing the words. That was just the final straw to years of this B.S. FYI, Dempsey is a sourpuss douche and always has been.
To my knowledge, the men never knelt, never protested and never said males should be allowed to participate in women's sports. Furthermore, when a Megan Rapinoe commuted 3.5 hours, one way, to practice everyday, and then has the audacity to say... as she's retiring... "sorry, your girl's volleyball isn't important enough to prevent trans males from participating", you just made an enemy out of me. I've raised girls that have played since the age of 4. I know what they sacrifice and how hard they train. So does everyone here. Bye, Cioppino... let that door hit you in the ass. Hard.
The reality is they didn't look strong but could have easily advanced with better finishing.
MR should have never been out there…it was to prevent a lawsuit for discrimination. Her 2019 Accolades, Lawsuits, and Social Justice Virtue Signaling made her “un-droppable”…and when AM comes out saying being and Activist, Entrepreneur, and Mother in that order is another problem. No Lloyd to balance out the BS, Vlatko…softie…not a mystery when you let the activists captain the ship. People coming out saying they felt bullied by MR to kneel…all kinds of BS in that program…less of a youth ability and programming issue and a pure culture issue IMHO. We still have the best players….add Sauerbraun, Macario, Pugh/Swanson, drop MR and take a younger, more qualified player, give Alyssa Thompson a chance against a tired Swedish back-line??? Who knows…un-inspired, weak coaching. He needs to go and we need to hire Randy Waldrum, not some BS DEI hire…
Start with VA—Should have been fired yesterday. Forget woke, our problem is being softies. Whereas our competition is cutthroat. Go out and get the best staff available. Change the style of play to something watchable. Running and gunning is ugly soccer and winning ugly against the Thailands and Vietnams only.
I will continue to follow youth soccer just as my DDs have wrapped up a decade and a half of it from rec to club. But we’re done now. During that time the USWNT was winning, and with superstars like Alex Morgan was a big draw for the kids. Will participation drop off as they start losing? I think it will.
No doubt the parasitical DOCs and coaches love pay to play, because they are a large part of the problem, but maybe if it gets bad enough US Soccer would have to make changes. And if they don’t, I would also enjoy sitting back and watching the whole thing decline and saying told you so.
whatithink
GOLD
So WC1 at 18 and WC2 at 22 and you are done! Makes no sense!!!
FIFA and the Olympics restrict players on men's Olympic soccer teams to age 23 or less, with three exceptions per team.
Orangeteam
SILVER ELITE
That rule does two things. First, it equals the playing field across the countries a bit more. It also ensures the world cup isn't out done.
I also believe in the 70s or 80s the rule was if you had played in a World Cup you could not be in the Olympics.
The earliest Olympic restrictions ruled out all professional players.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pay-to-play in part a function of the restriction on "selling" players in the US? I'm not defending pay-to-play, but any savvy family with a "deserving" player should be able to get their kid scholarshipped at a prominent club. I see pay-to-play as more of a perceived barrier to entry. Parents just assume they can't afford to have our kid play soccer, so they don't even consider having them play. But still, we have more kids playing soccer than any other country. I believe for girls its by a longshot.
In terms of ethics, are you speaking of coaches that make you take privates from them and then get preferential treatment on the team? I didn't see a lot of that on the boys side, is that pretty common for the girls? It sounds like maybe you are considering pay-to-play, something beyond just regular club dues, in which case, I admittedly don't have any experience with (other than with Dance).
We certainly have issues with culture, coaching and development, I'm just not convinced pay-to-play is a big factor in our failures, but I could be missing the point.
I was a little off -- through the first 56 games (48 group play and 8 round of 16 games) there have been 9 games that ended with a 0-0 score, 13 games at 1-0, and 8 at 2-0. All other scores happened 4 or fewer times. The oddball is the 6-3 score when France beat Panama.
whatithink
GOLD
There's no restriction on the women's side though, so its the senior side, if that's what the particular federation wants to do.
Because of the pay-to-play structure, we are missing the opportunity to bring in young players whose families can't afford the pay part.
I understand that generality, but there are plenty of recreational programs that are less costly. To me, the ability to get underprivileged kids to practice and games is a bigger issue than cost. I understand we miss out on a few kids, but again we still have the most youth players in the world. I've never looked at any of our national teams and thought they weren't loaded with great athletes. On the women's side that's primarily how we've been able to dominate for so many years.
Our other youth sports are predominantly pay-to-play. and yet we seem to do OK on an international level. Of course, some of those sports are traditionally American. Which leads back to the cultural issue. The antithesis of pay-to-play are pickup soccer games in the street, which culturally we don't have/support because how are you going to learn the game without some coach with an accent barking directions at you.
whatithink
GOLD
I would say that the phrase "I've never looked at any of our national teams and thought they weren't loaded with great athletes" sums it up for me. I've heard plenty of coaches (all A level) assert the "give me an athlete and I can teach them soccer" mantra and pick kids accordingly. I would posit that the academy coaches in Europe have a mantra of "show me a kid with high IQ and great technical ability and we can make them athletic (i.e. able to run around a lot)". Athleticism can paper over a lot of cracks, but its no substitute for IQ & technique.
Couldn't agree with you more. Speed of play is so much more important than speed of foot and size. Someone that can read the field before they receive the ball, receive the ball in one clean touch and then quickly execute a high percentage decision is so much more effective than a kid that runs a 4.3 40 and weighs 180 that your lofting balls to. I look at it as the difference between athleticism and effectiveness. I have nothing against athleticism, my son made it as far as he did in no small part due to his pure speed and coordination (although below average on size). I also loved watching the pure athleticism of the Nigerian teams of the past.
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I believe that coaches that think they can teach a player soccer IQ, is a symptom of what I believe is our biggest issue with American soccer and that is "over-coaching". This is a great article on overcoaching...how many coaches have your kids had that would check many of these boxes?
"The Perils of Overcoaching Youth Soccer"
By Dave Simeone
U.S. Soccer National Staff
Many sports are coach-oriented rather than player-oriented, leading to the potential for over-coaching. Baseball, basketball, and football-referred to as set-up sports-all demand and allow a high degree of involvement by the coach during games. (Between pitches (baseball) or plays (football) the time and opportunity exist for diagrams to be drawn or the coach to reposition a player.
But soccer is different. In soccer, the involvement of the coach is secondary to the performance of the players. Soccer is fairly uninterrupted. Players must be allowed to make decisions on their own and learn to receive and process information to solve problems during the game.
Soccer coaches must do most of their game preparation work during the week. By game time on the weekend, it is up to the participants to act, make decisions and play!
Answer these questions honestly to determine if you are over-coaching. If you answer "yes" to very many you are over-coaching.
• Do you find that your voice is strained following a game?
• Is the information that you give your players during half time emotional but non- specific? Does it help them solve problems?
• Do you use catch phrases such as "suck it up, boys" or "no pain, no gain"" in attempting to motivate youngsters?
• Do you find that you are sweating and running just as much during the game as the players?
• Are you pre-game, half-time or post-game speeches similar to the president's state of the union address?
• When addressing the players, do you ramble and cause confusion among the players as to the point you are trying to make?
• Are your remarks and instruction made during the game and to players repetitive and redundant? Is this information general, non-specific jargon and cheerleading and is it altering the player's performance?
• Are you reluctant to allow players to make their own decisions during a game?
• Are you constantly barraging players with instructions during the game?
• Do you coach in absolutes such as "always" or "never"?
• Do you choreograph and arrange players into strict starting positions with instructions such as "never go out of your zone" or "defenders should never cross the midline?"
• Have you instructed players to refrain from passing the ball to certain teammates because their present level of ability is, from your adult perspective, inadequate?
• Do you spend an excessive amount of practice time on throw-ins, kick-offs, corner kicks or penalty kicks?
• Are you utilizing methods of training that do not allow players to acquire and improve technical skills, tactical decision-making, physical stamina and confidence (i.e., dribbling through cones, sending in lines awaiting a turn)?
• Are you attempting to improve the team's level of fitness by minimizing the time the players have contact with the ball? Do you view the game as a contest based only on fitness that leads to a preoccupation with running?
• Are you openly emotional or upset when addressing the players to the point that they stare at you and think, "What are you so disturbed about?"
• Do you have difficulty accepting a realistic approach to winning and losing? Do you believe that winning is synonymous with player development?
• Are you constantly aggravated and apprehensive about coaching?
If you answer "no" to the following questions, you may be over-coaching.
• Do your practices produce nearly the same degree of movement as a soccer game?
• Do you enjoy and have fun coaching youngsters?
• Do the players seem to enjoy playing because of your input and involvement as coach?
The games and practices youngsters take part in should be viewed as vehicles for learning. The same is true of their practices. The acquisition of playing ability is a long-term process that begins at the age of five or six. It is unrealistic to expect youngsters 11 years old or younger to have an adult perspective on the game.
Young players are a product of their experiences. They learn more from their experiences (games, activities, the environment) than they do from the coach. The role of the coach is to organize and set up games and activities that allow the players to learn and enjoy the sport.
The transport is absolutely an issue particularly if to play on a high level team you are commuting an hour+ to get to where you need to go (whether it be LA traffic or a hub like Seattle where there's only 1 MLS team).
There are plenty of opportunities to play including AYSO and Latino league and high school. My kid has played Latino league and was worried it would be AYSO...it's not...some really great players there mixed in with AYSO Core level players. Problem is pro scouts and colleges do not look at this. They only look at the letter league clubs with access and a certain very limited number of high schools mostly in SoCal. The consolidation in Socal has made this worse as former independent clubs are struggled or getting absorbed by the big giants which raises the fees.
My son has played as well for Latino based clubs. I can tell you finance is certainly a dissuader for some of the kids, even with MLS Next subsidies. I've seen some including one really talented player drop when the fees get too high. Yes, there are scholarships particularly at the more suburban clubs. But it also caps the number of players those clubs can take given that someone needs to pay the fee...and some of it is cultural...there's a fear on some of those clubs if they get too ghetto it might turn off white/Asian paying customers (who are therefore reluctant also to play for largely Latino based teams).
Finally, I used to always assume the soccer IQ was higher in Latino based communities due to the kids playing pickup at school than white communities. I can tell you that assumption of mine was wrong. Soccer IQ, even among those who follow the sport, in Latino communities is relatively low. For reference, look at the social media where Club America supporters say the game was rigged because it was called against America and not Nashville: the Nashville keeper had a foot on the line which is within the rules, the America keeper did not....it was absolutely the right call. We spent time in Spain and the soccer IQ there even for their rec leagues is much higher than in our Latino (largely Mexican and central American) communities. They talk soccer with the expertise some American families talk gridiron football positions and strategies. My father, who played for the lower level Peruvian pro teams, once got into an argument with a youth ref in SoCal over whether a throw in should be considered offside (you can't be offside on a throw in dear father).
There have been some arguments floating around on social media that girls soccer will change once more Latina girls begin to enter it. That argument is wrong. And it hasn't really changed as much for the men despite that Latinos are heavily involved now. Soccer IQ is poor across the US, even in both communities. It's one of the reasons the Mexican men's team has struggled .Pick up games won't solve that. The only really remedy I see is a free academy system that identifies talent at an early age (and treats them as ruthlessly as Europe does).
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Are you convinced they all know the words - especially the younger ones? I'm not. When do most of them hear it now? That's an honest question. I won't harshly judge a player who stands quietly while our anthem is played. Like @watfly, I am a free-speech absolutist. However, I do find that playing for your country yet kneeling in protest smacks of virtue signaling. If you want to protest, make it known you won't be part of the team until your cause is addressed. Show some commitment - i.e. individual sacrifice - if you believe in a cause.