Women's CONCACAF World Cup Qualifying

[GoldenGate]

I personally have a bigger issue with win-now vs pay-to-play. The later is pretty much unavoidable. That said I think it's fair to acknowledge the downsides to pay-to-play, which there are many. For me, I wish pay-to-play produced a better product. Unfortunately the majority of players/parents do not value development over win-now and the clubs are catering to its customers wants. It's just unfortunate. This is why on the men's side so many players play in Europe instead of the MLS. I postulate that this is going to happen more and more on the woman's side over time. If that FCB vs PDA game didn't convince you, I don't know what will.

It is possible (and necessary) to emphasize winning and also develop players. I don't know why people think it is one or the other. The truth is winning is important because having fun is important, and there is nothing more fun than winning. If you want to win soccer games at the highest level, you need alphas, players who have a burning need to win, and that needs to be fed constantly. When you make children spend their youth dribbling through cones, juggling and making wall passes all day long, you deprive them of the most joyous part of the sport and drive most of the alphas out of it, while stifling the most important mental mindset for the rest. Seriously, people like you beat into little girls that winning isn't important their entire youth, but then you turn around and wonder why they don't win when they're adults? Meanwhile, the American youth clubs that you and your "beautiful game" buddies thumb your nose at for emphasizing winning over circus juggling keep cranking out winners.

Spain will not become an elite women's soccer power for this reason. They lack physical and mental alphas because their youth system drives them out of the sport. They're stuck with circus jugglers who fold every time against the countries that bring better and more mentally tough athletes. It is sad watching their body language when they have to defend a corner against a team like the US, England or Germany. They know they're losers, so they lose. They had 70% possession against Germany but were dominated and got mugged on a header. They had 60% possession and the lead against England but were dominated and got mugged again on a header. Passing the ball around the back and midfield all day isn't pretty soccer. It's an embarrassing fear of engagement.

 

[NorCalDad]

It is possible (and necessary) to emphasize winning and also develop players. I don't know why people think it is one or the other. The truth is winning is important because having fun is important, and there is nothing more fun than winning. If you want to win soccer games at the highest level, you need alphas, players who have a burning need to win, and that needs to be fed constantly. When you make children spend their youth dribbling through cones, juggling and making wall passes all day long, you deprive them of the most joyous part of the sport and drive most of the alphas out of it, while stifling the most important mental mindset for the rest. Seriously, people like you beat into little girls that winning isn't important their entire youth, but then you turn around and wonder why they don't win when they're adults? Meanwhile, the American youth clubs that you and your "beautiful game" buddies thumb your nose at for emphasizing winning over circus juggling keep cranking out winners.

Spain will not become an elite women's soccer power for this reason. They lack physical and mental alphas because their youth system drives them out of the sport. They're stuck with circus jugglers who fold every time against the countries that bring better and more mentally tough athletes. It is sad watching their body language when they have to defend a corner against a team like the US, England or Germany. They know they're losers, so they lose. They had 70% possession against Germany but were dominated and got mugged on a header. They had 60% possession and the lead against England but were dominated and got mugged again on a header. Passing the ball around the back and midfield all day isn't pretty soccer. It's an embarrassing fear of engagement.

@GoldenGate I generally like your posts, but you literally have no idea what you're talking about in this case. I know this thread is about the woman's side, but let's take a step back for a moment. Do you think direct play / bully ball works on the men's side 100% of the time? I would hope your answer here would be a resounding "no". My point is, once the European teams dial in girl's side, the USWNT will be playing catch up. In soccer there's not much more embarrassing than watching a bunch of "alphas" getting schooled by much smarter players. Not unlike that PDA vs FCB game posted earlier -- those "alphas" were schooled big time. So much so, I don't even know how to define "alpha" anymore.

In Spain the coaches loath juggling exercises -- they prize thinking and decision making. The US clubs I'm familiar with spend way too much time on juggling, especially when said club just plays boot ball anyway. Juggling in the US is just a time killer for many coaches.

 

[NorCalDad]

@GoldenGate I highly recommend you take a moment and read:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08PL2S7H3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o04?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I wish coaches/DoCs would read this (I'm sure many do). It aligns with what Todd Beane preaches...and what I buy into big time.

I just don't understand your aversion to wanting coaching in the US to continually improve.

 

[Happened again]

@GoldenGate I generally like your posts, but you literally have no idea what you're talking about in this case. I know this thread is about the woman's side, but let's take a step back for a moment. Do you think direct play / bully ball works on the men's side 100% of the time? I would hope your answer here would be a resounding "no". My point is, once the European teams dial in girl's side, the USWNT will be playing catch up. In soccer there's not much more embarrassing than watching a bunch of "alphas" getting schooled by much smarter players. Not unlike that PDA vs FCB game posted earlier -- those "alphas" were schooled big time. So much so, I don't even know how to define "alpha" anymore.

In Spain the coaches loath juggling exercises -- they prize thinking and decision making. The US clubs I'm familiar with spend way too much time on juggling, especially when said club just plays boot ball anyway. Juggling in the US is just a time killer for many coaches.

You are living in la la land. Euro teams dial in their girls side? The point that GG is making ( admittedly I agree) is that building out of the back and possession without finishing in the final 3rd wins zero games. Spain did exactly that. Citing a PDA vs Barca game as the revelation that we are being overtaken at a rapid pace is silly. PDA is one of many, many clubs in the US. Play that game against another club that plays a similar style but finishes, that game ends differently. There are many out there, all over the country, in the GA,ECNL NPL..blah blah..they are out there. Play that game against a YNT with YNT coaches, and that game is different...I would guess. Are the Barca girls technically good..yep.

A very old senior team won bronze recently, the YNTs just came back from Europe, wreaking havoc against everyone. There are other regional youth tournanments going on us club teams doing very well. I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure. Are others creeping up, showing improvement...of course - Austrialia, France, Japan, Spain...

To your point of the men's game...finishing in the final third is the key. Good teams know when to apply what to win games. Every game is different, every year is different, the leagues are different....even the world cup is different. Remeber when a possession team dismantled Brazil? Big, precise, finishing, patience, disruption. Soccer is fun though and these discussions are also.

 

[NorCalDad]

You are living in la la land. Euro teams dial in their girls side? The point that GG is making ( admittedly I agree) is that building out of the back and possession without finishing in the final 3rd wins zero games. Spain did exactly that. Citing a PDA vs Barca game as the revelation that we are being overtaken at a rapid pace is silly. PDA is one of many, many clubs in the US. Play that game against another club that plays a similar style but finishes, that game ends differently. There are many out there, all over the country, in the GA,ECNL NPL..blah blah..they are out there. Play that game against a YNT with YNT coaches, and that game is different...I would guess. Are the Barca girls technically good..yep.

A very old senior team won bronze recently, the YNTs just came back from Europe, wreaking havoc against everyone. There are other regional youth tournanments going on us club teams doing very well. I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure. Are others creeping up, showing improvement...of course - Austrialia, France, Japan, Spain...

To your point of the men's game...finishing in the final third is the key. Good teams know when to apply what to win games. Every game is different, every year is different, the leagues are different....even the world cup is different. Remeber when a possession team dismantled Brazil? Big, precise, finishing, patience, disruption. Soccer is fun though and these discussions are also.

Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands. I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here. Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".

 

[Happened again]

Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands. I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here. Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".

we are beating a dead horse. Plenty of coaches that agree with you.. Unfortunately there are more parents that just want to win. US Soccer on the girls side will continue to cook up their recipe. If an ingredient needs to be substituted/adjusted..then so be it.

 

[NorCalDad]

we are beating a dead horse. Plenty of coaches that agree with you.. Unfortunately there are more parents that just want to win. US Soccer on the girls side will continue to cook up their recipe. If an ingredient needs to be substituted/adjusted..then so be it.

You will need more than a new ingredient -- perhaps a new kitchen.

 

[Happened again]

You will need more than a new ingredient -- perhaps a new kitchen.

I don't know how much soccer you've personally played in your life or what soccer outside of Norcal you've witnessed. Plenty of ingredients to soccer, you could debate the details forever, tactics and strategies abound, esepcially when players get older. Should we teach skills? sure...is possession and building out of the back a skill...no, it's a strategy and it's game/opponent dependent. I get what you are saying and generally agree.

The resources available at FCB to develop skills at an early age and carry it through are somewhat higher than lets say MVLA, Surf, PDA, etc. At the end of the pipeline though, countries like spain will likely never be a perrenial finalist at the world cup or the olympics. Even with dips in performance and transitioning from the old guard to the youngsters, the US will be hard to beat...we have too many athletes in the pipeline.

Big, strong, fast, and skilled teams usually win out against the smaller fast, skilled teams. Size does matter, even in soccer. Messi is an outlier. Defensive shape matters - have the time of your life possessing and building and switching the field. Don't finish in the final third and that big, strong, fast, skilled team will counter you to death. Liverpool comes to mind in the EPL - check out their shape just prior to the counter. They are really good at it, as was Arsenal back in the Wenger days.

 

[Code]

Taxpayers of Irvine continue to pay for every soccer field and every improvement at the Great Park. Would be interesting if they started charging for the full price, instead of practically giving it away for free. And the school districts should do the same.

Did Irvine pay full price to the federal government for the land Great Park sits on? No, they annexed it from El Toro when the base was closed? Did Irvine pay for the development of parks space and structures, to include the fields, ice rink, stadiums, etc.? No a public private partnership was established where private companies invested in building the park so they could also build and sell homes there. The local special tax was created to provide the infrastructure for the park, roads and utilities. There are no clear records of where those tax dollars are really being spent, but it is most likely not on the park, as the land and built enviornment are not a part of the cost. Irvine was practically given Great Park for free.

 

[Code]

I thought the point of this discussion was to find ways to improve US soccer. The fragmentation I am referring to is the many upper level leagues that cause local teams to travel and prevent them from playing one another. These leagues also dilute the talent. All of these leagues exist due to a lack of non-corrupt leadership from US Soccer and their primary purpose is to funnel dollars to the leagues, not to make better soccer players. No more than 1 or 2 SoCal teams per age group should ever have a reason to travel out of SoCal. Since the vast majority of games are played at facilities funded by the taxpayers, we should be able to demand some efficiency.

These Leagues exsit because parents are giving them money. I agree that there is no need for more than one elite league in SoCal, and local play could provide the challenge 95% of the players need. Blaming the leagues is not the solution, it is the parents who participate in the farce. If parents stop placing players in those teams, the leagues go away. There are plenty of play options in SOCAL NPL and Flight 1 teams for everyone. No need for governement oversight of youth soccer.

 

[Happened again]

You will need more than a new ingredient -- perhaps a new kitchen.

The kitchen is just fine - new ingredients to keep things fresh. England is a build and possesion team. To play like the US plays, we need athletes with skill. Teams that rely on possession are often vulnerable. If you can't play out or you turn the ball over as you try to adjust, the USWNT is way too athletic and skilled and will make you pay. At a minimum they just grind you down. We've gotten older and had been unable to string an entire tournament's worth of effective effort. Beat the high press and you isolate the back line - pretty much happened when they won bronze. Fresh ingredients will help, keep the kitchen.

 

[paytoplay]

Did Irvine pay full price to the federal government for the land Great Park sits on? No, they annexed it from El Toro when the base was closed? Did Irvine pay for the development of parks space and structures, to include the fields, ice rink, stadiums, etc.? No a public private partnership was established where private companies invested in building the park so they could also build and sell homes there. The local special tax was created to provide the infrastructure for the park, roads and utilities. There are no clear records of where those tax dollars are really being spent, but it is most likely not on the park, as the land and built enviornment are not a part of the cost. Irvine was practically given Great Park for free.

Wrong. It was Irvine before it became a military base, and then it was rightfully returned. Clubs are getting a massive subsidy to sell their wares, compliments Irvine taxpayers. Would be funny if they started charging $12 to park—We need more of that innovative club stuff.

 

[NorCalDad]

I don't know how much soccer you've personally played in your life or what soccer outside of Norcal you've witnessed. Plenty of ingredients to soccer, you could debate the details forever, tactics and strategies abound, esepcially when players get older. Should we teach skills? sure...is possession and building out of the back a skill...no, it's a strategy and it's game/opponent dependent. I get what you are saying and generally agree.

The resources available at FCB to develop skills at an early age and carry it through are somewhat higher than lets say MVLA, Surf, PDA, etc. At the end of the pipeline though, countries like spain will likely never be a perrenial finalist at the world cup or the olympics. Even with dips in performance and transitioning from the old guard to the youngsters, the US will be hard to beat...we have too many athletes in the pipeline.

Big, strong, fast, and skilled teams usually win out against the smaller fast, skilled teams. Size does matter, even in soccer. Messi is an outlier. Defensive shape matters - have the time of your life possessing and building and switching the field. Don't finish in the final third and that big, strong, fast, skilled team will counter you to death. Liverpool comes to mind in the EPL - check out their shape just prior to the counter. They are really good at it, as was Arsenal back in the Wenger days.

I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead. Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable. Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal. But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level. Plus family members have played abroad. Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league). Am I an authority? Nope. No more than most folks on these forums.

I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill. I think it's both a strategy and a skill. Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession. A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game". It's just not that easy. The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now". Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way. It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.

I think there is a time and a place to play directly, low block, high block, etc. Heck even Man City will step out of their possession comfort zone depending on the opponent. In that scenario it's a conscious decision to do so. Unfortunately, very few youth clubs teach these skills so that players have an arsenal of options in their quiver.

Also, Messi isn't the only "outlier". Pretty sure Kante, Maradona, Xavi, Insigne, etc would like to have a word with you Also it's well documented that EPL players are bigger/taller than La Liga players. Interestingly enough, La Liga teams have fared far better in the Champions League than EPL teams over the last 20ish years. It's really not close.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Spain will not become an elite women's soccer power for this reason. They lack physical and mental alphas because their youth system drives them out of the sport. They're stuck with circus jugglers who fold every time against the countries that bring better and more mentally tough athletes.

It's probably a lot more due to this - This was 2015, but will filter to the National team in subsequent years. Or, we can go with your explanation - these other countries have "alpha" males and "beta" females but the US has "beta" males and "alpha" females.

According to FIFA, only about 12 percent of youth soccer players are girls. And the U.S. makes up more than half of that total, says Morris.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/07/02/countries-who-treat-their-women-equally-have-better-womens-soccer-teams/

 

[crush]

@kickingandscreaming and @NorCalDad- The last game I saw that had two girls teams buy into possession was Deza'a Quakes v my dd old Surf team in 2017. It was beautiful to watch and I thought it would help change the way ALL the girls played this sport. Both GK's NEVER punted the ball and always worked from the back and try and work it up the field. The girls on my dd team bought into this style 18 months prior. The rules were simple: Pass the ball within three touches and then run. Triangle offense so to speak and wear your opponent down or find the bench next to coach to learn how to share the rock and not be a ball hog. CM's 100% had to buy in or it won't work and thank God they did. My dd got nice assists from them and we won the Natty. The girls before this were taught "Smash Ball" and "get out of way" kind of the play. Big, fast, athletic and tough as nails players and super strong willed. Kickball and Rugby all in one. Dangerous and not how the game should be played for females, moo. I ran into a top coach and he said it won't work in college unless you get recruited to Stanford and I teach the girls to be prepared for the Truth, which is college smash ball. If you have to win, then you do whatever it takes to win. MVLA was also a very good posssion team. I told that coach no way my dd would have made it in your system of direct kickball. Hopefully some day the game can change for the safety of all the girls. I just got word of another ACL injury.

 

[Happened again]

I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead. Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable. Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal. But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level. Plus family members have played abroad. Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league). Am I an authority? Nope. No more than most folks on these forums.

I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill. I think it's both a strategy and a skill. Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession. A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game". It's just not that easy. The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now". Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way. It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.

I think there is a time and a place to play directly, low block, high block, etc. Heck even Man City will step out of their possession comfort zone depending on the opponent. In that scenario it's a conscious decision to do so. Unfortunately, very few youth clubs teach these skills so that players have an arsenal of options in their quiver.

Also, Messi isn't the only "outlier". Pretty sure Kante, Maradona, Xavi, Insigne, etc would like to have a word with you Also it's well documented that EPL players are bigger/taller than La Liga players. Interestingly enough, La Liga teams have fared far better in the Champions League than EPL teams over the last 20ish years. It's really not close.

I certainly appreciate your response and thanks for providing a bit of personal info, provides context to your position. I too shall share a bit... - I played through college, as did hubby (he's on here from time to time), then moved on to professional life and kids.

We'll agree to disagree, possession is a strategy that requires skills (first touch comes to mind, amongst others). As far as the CL is concerned, Real Madrid has certainly been a dominant force...but take a peek at their roster size along their back line. I'm sure Kante and others would have objected to my statement and meant no disrespect. Messi remains an outlier in modern times.

club soccer in the US is a money making venture, that won't ever change. Find a club that teaches skills and prioritizes development. Figure out which direction (if any) your kid wants to go, then go from there. US soccer will do their own thing - I focus on the women's side, the men's side will never move beyond knock out rounds but should be more fun to watch in the coming years.

 

[GoldenGate]

@GoldenGate I generally like your posts, but you literally have no idea what you're talking about in this case. I know this thread is about the woman's side, but let's take a step back for a moment. Do you think direct play / bully ball works on the men's side 100% of the time? I would hope your answer here would be a resounding "no". My point is, once the European teams dial in girl's side, the USWNT will be playing catch up. In soccer there's not much more embarrassing than watching a bunch of "alphas" getting schooled by much smarter players. Not unlike that PDA vs FCB game posted earlier -- those "alphas" were schooled big time. So much so, I don't even know how to define "alpha" anymore.

In Spain the coaches loath juggling exercises -- they prize thinking and decision making. The US clubs I'm familiar with spend way too much time on juggling, especially when said club just plays boot ball anyway. Juggling in the US is just a time killer for many coaches.

I was not talking about men's soccer. The fact that you think they're the same sport and should therefore be played the same way is misogynistic and naive.

You are seriously relying on a club game played by two girls teams as proof that the USWNT, winner of two straight WCs and half the WCs ever played, should start playing like a country that has never won a knockout stage game in its life? What a joke. You watched one soccer game played between a regional US club team and what is presumably the finest players that Spain has to offer all consolidated on one team and constantly training together, and you conclude that Spain knows what is going on? Seriously?

Can you tell me how many of those PDA girls will leverage their ability to play soccer into college opportunity and scholarships? What do you think those Barca girls will all be doing when they're 19? How many of the PDA kids will be better off as adults because of their soccer compared to the Barca players? You have not clue what the point of elite club soccer even is.

 

[GoldenGate]

Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands. I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here. Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".

You were saying this 10 years ago with Japan. You were saying this 6 years ago even with Spain, and they still have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament in their history. If anyone is on spin cycle, it's you. The one thing that makes one country consistently better than another at a sport is that more kids play it at a high level over a longer span of years. That's it. If you had your way, you would take that advantage away from the US. You are an idiot.

 

[NorCalDad]

I was not talking about men's soccer. The fact that you think they're the same sport and should therefore be played the same way is misogynistic and naive.

You are seriously relying on a club game played by two girls teams as proof that the USWNT, winner of two straight WCs and half the WCs ever played, should start playing like a country that has never won a knockout stage game in its life? What a joke. You watched one soccer game played between a regional US club team and what is presumably the finest players that Spain has to offer all consolidated on one team and constantly training together, and you conclude that Spain knows what is going on? Seriously?

Can you tell me how many of those PDA girls will leverage their ability to play soccer into college opportunity and scholarships? What do you think those Barca girls will all be doing when they're 19? How many of the PDA kids will be better off as adults because of their soccer compared to the Barca players? You have not clue what the point of elite club soccer even is.

Yes, @GoldenGate it was just one video that convinced me that we need to change everything. You nailed it. I have watched MANY games in person and online at pretty much every level. I do agree with you the woman's side is almost a completely different sport than the men's side. In fact this likely explains why there is a higher rate of concussions on the woman's side.

I think every single one of those girls on the FCB team could land on a D1 roster if that's the path they wanted to take. This is already what happens on the mens side. As I said earlier, I think the collegiate approach to athletics in the US is much better for the masses than the academy approach in Europe -- purely from the perspective that not everyone will go pro and will actually need an education.

Like I said earlier -- let's circle back in 10 years and see where things land.

 

[Happened again]

You were saying this 10 years ago with Japan. You were saying this 6 years ago even with Spain, and they still have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament in their history. If anyone is on spin cycle, it's you. The one thing that makes one country consistently better than another at a sport is that more kids play it at a high level over a longer span of years. That's it. If you had your way, you would take that advantage away from the US. You are an idiot.

you must be very small - so angry, so entertaining.