Women's CONCACAF World Cup Qualifying

[Code]

Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.

Free Market societies usually prevail, and rise to the top. Free Market sports will probably do the same. For years people have been beating the drum that the pay to play system is going to fail, and the US teams are going to crash and burn. Yet here we are, still watching thier success, and watching duel national players (who were raised and trained in the US) play on other National teams.

 

[NorCalDad]

Free Market societies usually prevail, and rise to the top. Free Market sports will probably do the same. For years people have been beating the drum that the pay to play system is going to fail, and the US teams are going to crash and burn. Yet here we are, still watching thier success, and watching duel national players (who were raised and trained in the US) play on other National teams.

I presume you're talking about the girls side re: dual national players training here. I think that has more to do with what @kickingandscreaming brought up about the US being amenable to girls soccer earlier on than other countries. You will see more and more women wanting to play for the girls sides in EPL and La Liga, especially when it becomes clear that coaching in the US is inferior. Like I said, give it 10 years and the USWNT will be struggling (of course, unless something changes here).

 

[VegasParent]

I have a bleaker outlook. I think the women's side will drop to the same level as men's side in about 10 years. I mean still one of the top 15 FIFA teams. But I think you will also see the European women's leagues surpass NWSL, as all top players will head there. I think issue has less to do with the individual player and more to do with the style of play. Most girls in the US aren't getting proper instruction in that regard (a few are for sure). The one thing I don't have insight into is what soccer culture is like for girls in Europe. Are girls going outside and playing pickup? Is it part of their lives apart from training/games? That culture part is ALWAYS something the US will struggle with for both men and women.

Agree 100%. I have seen this play out more and more over the last few years with my kid. At the GA showcase last month 2 of the teams her team played relied of being overly physical and playing direct. The refs called a tight game so the overly physical play worked against them and in my opinion that style of play will work against those players in the future.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Agree 100%. I have seen this play out more and more over the last few years with my kid. At the GA showcase last month 2 of the teams her team played relied of being overly physical and playing direct. The refs called a tight game so the overly physical play worked against them and in my opinion that style of play will work against those players in the future.

Generally teams that blow up the Silver level rely on being overly physical and playing direct.

Those same teams get worked when they jump up to Gold level + get beat by possession teams often with smaller players.

Seen it happen multiple times. Parents that are new to soccer see the results of being overly physical + get crazy on the sidelines. Give those same parents a couple of seasons of playing against possession teams at he Gold level and you'll notice that they're quiet + just focused on the game at hand. Unfortunately you can't explain this to parents they just have to live through it to understand.

 

[espola]

Agree 100%. I have seen this play out more and more over the last few years with my kid. At the GA showcase last month 2 of the teams her team played relied of being overly physical and playing direct. The refs called a tight game so the overly physical play worked against them and in my opinion that style of play will work against those players in the future.

As you pointed out, that depends on referees who are not afraid to call a good game

 

[VegasParent]

As you pointed out, that depends on referees who are not afraid to call a good game

Good point.

 

[GoldenGate]

Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.

IKR. The American "pay to play" system has been a disaster of monumental proportions for the women's side. One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable. We really need to overhaul our youth system to be more like the countries like Spain, France and Netherlands that have done so well internationally. In fact, I've been saying this since way back when we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that. It is just sickening that we Americans need to pay money for our little girls to get the highest level kiddie soccer training from the best coaches. Instead of spending on education, or healthcare, or even basketball and softball, our government really needs to be spending billions on kiddie soccer coaches to make sure every girl in America can become the best soccer player they can be. Soccer is just that important, especially if we call it "futbol".

 

[NorCalDad]

IKR. The American "pay to play" system has been a disaster of monumental proportions for the women's side. One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable. We really need to overhaul our youth system to be more like the countries like Spain, France and Netherlands that have done so well internationally. In fact, I've been saying this since way back when we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that. It is just sickening that we Americans need to pay money for our little girls to get the highest level kiddie soccer training from the best coaches. Instead of spending on education, or healthcare, or even basketball and softball, our government really needs to be spending billions on kiddie soccer coaches to make sure every girl in America can become the best soccer player they can be. Soccer is just that important, especially if we call it "futbol".

You realize you're on a soccer forum, right?

 

[toucan]

IKR. The American "pay to play" system has been a disaster of monumental proportions for the women's side. One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable. We really need to overhaul our youth system to be more like the countries like Spain, France and Netherlands that have done so well internationally. In fact, I've been saying this since way back when we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that. It is just sickening that we Americans need to pay money for our little girls to get the highest level kiddie soccer training from the best coaches. Instead of spending on education, or healthcare, or even basketball and softball, our government really needs to be spending billions on kiddie soccer coaches to make sure every girl in America can become the best soccer player they can be. Soccer is just that important, especially if we call it "futbol".

I think you are being facetious. But I'm not sure.

"One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable." Lack of success? The USWNT won the last two World Cups in 2019 vs. Netherlands, and 2015 vs. Japan, by a combined score of 7-2.

"...we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that." Hmm. The USWNT is currently ranked #1. Brazil is #9, Japan is #13, and China is #16. All of those teams whose systems you laud have dropped precipitously in their competitiveness. In the meantime, the USWNT has made all three of the last World Cup finals and won two of them. Maybe our girls are doing something right.

I agree with your sentiment that the US should not prioritize soccer, whether for boys or girls, because other things (like education and healthcare) are more important.

 

[Kicker 2.0]

I think you are being facetious. But I'm not sure.

"One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable." Lack of success? The USWNT won the last two World Cups in 2019 vs. Netherlands, and 2015 vs. Japan, by a combined score of 7-2.

"...we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that." Hmm. The USWNT is currently ranked #1. Brazil is #9, Japan is #13, and China is #16. All of those teams whose systems you laud have dropped precipitously in their competitiveness. In the meantime, the USWNT has made all three of the last World Cup finals and won two of them. Maybe our girls are doing something right.

I agree with your sentiment that the US should not prioritize soccer, whether for boys or girls, because other things (like education and healthcare) are more important.

That was his point. We seem to hear this argument every 8 years…inevitably we may end up in 5th in the World then rise again.

Hope you are all watching the game and getting those viewership numbers up.

 

[michelleP]

That was his point. We seem to hear this argument every 8 years…inevitably we may end up in 5th in the World then rise again.

Hope you are all watching the game and getting those viewership numbers up.

I think this go around we'll not fare as well. We don't seem to look as strong. Although some key players are missing, Ertz, Dunn....... But we shall see!

 

[NorCalDad]

I mean watch this:

This randomly came up in my youtube feed. Aren't these supposed to be two of the stronger girls clubs? I didn't watch the whole game, but some of what I watched resembled rugby more than soccer. The decision making wasn't great and the ball was bouncing all over the place. It just feels like everyone is panicking out there. There really is no method to the madness here. These are 14 year olds, but I've seen the exact same thing at the collegiate level. Unsurprisingly, the girls that appeared to play reasonably well were the smaller and more technical players.

I think my main point here is I think we're doing a disservice to the girl's side and it will eventually show at the USWNT level as the bigger/faster/stronger mindset will not work against European teams where decision making (e.g., playing with your brain) is emphasized. This happens on the boys side too, obviously. The difference is we already see how that plays out internationally. The only reason the USMNT team is getting better is because a significant portion of those players play overseas.

I just wish we could deemphasize "win-now" and focus on development. That would, of course, require coaches, players and parents to adjust their lenses significantly.

 

[Happened again]

That was his point. We seem to hear this argument every 8 years…inevitably we may end up in 5th in the World then rise again.

Hope you are all watching the game and getting those viewership numbers up.

We seem to always talk about the demise of the UWNT, yet they somehow continue to be steady as she goes and bounce back. 3rd in the world every once in while isn't a bad thing. Good on the rest of the world for trying to catch up and are empowering their girls to play.

Sometimes it's easy to cry wolf (i'm guilty of it when it comes to girl soccer) but then get reminded of how good the top percentile is when the junior teams travel abroad and continue to win. Their records this year speak for themselves. is the world catching up? maybe....is it over the next 10 years? maybe. Should we all be watching and having fun..absolutely.

The game last night was touch and go - eventually the better team won , the team that pressured the final 3rd and created more opportunities. Did they close out the game well..nope. Are they younger than ever before...yep. Is Vlads style of play a bit different than what we are used to? Probably. Do we have athletes up front that are hard to defend? yep....do we have more of those in the pipeline...probably. Do we need to rethink our back line..likely.

 

[Happened again]

I mean watch this:

This randomly came up in my youtube feed. Aren't these supposed to be two of the stronger girls clubs? I didn't watch the whole game, but some of what I watched resembled rugby more than soccer. The decision making wasn't great and the ball was bouncing all over the place. It just feels like everyone is panicking out there. There really is no method to the madness here. These are 14 year olds, but I've seen the exact same thing at the collegiate level. Unsurprisingly, the girls that appeared to play reasonably well were the smaller and more technical players.

I think my main point here is I think we're doing a disservice to the girl's side and it will eventually show at the USWNT level as the bigger/faster/stronger mindset will not work against European teams where decision making (e.g., playing with your brain) is emphasized. This happens on the boys side too, obviously. The difference is we already see how that plays out internationally. The only reason the USMNT team is getting better is because a significant portion of those players play overseas.

I just wish we could deemphasize "win-now" and focus on development. That would, of course, require coaches, players and parents to adjust their lenses significantly.

I 100% agree with most of what you are saying. Fortunately the USWNT (to include the juniors) is a collection of players from across the country and from different clubs. US Soccer has pick of the litter...the ECNL/GA best teams aren't competing on the world stage. The ECNL/GA game doesn't translate to what US soccer teaches on the field during ID events, regional camps, and team training camps. Our daugthers are 100% trainable and can make the adjustment from club play to national team play. They do it every year, transitioning from club to HS and then back again.

Our YNTs did great work recently traveling abroad - dominating at every age group. Our pipeline looks rather good for the next 10-15 years. Granted, they have to stick around, stay interested, healthy, etc. Our talent pool is much bigger than anywhere else in the world.

The downside of our system is some of what you describe above. Development isn't the best but patience doesn't make money for clubs. US Soccer sits back and cherry picks the best...

 

[LASTMAN14]

I mean watch this:

This randomly came up in my youtube feed. Aren't these supposed to be two of the stronger girls clubs? I didn't watch the whole game, but some of what I watched resembled rugby more than soccer. The decision making wasn't great and the ball was bouncing all over the place. It just feels like everyone is panicking out there. There really is no method to the madness here. These are 14 year olds, but I've seen the exact same thing at the collegiate level. Unsurprisingly, the girls that appeared to play reasonably well were the smaller and more technical players.

I think my main point here is I think we're doing a disservice to the girl's side and it will eventually show at the USWNT level as the bigger/faster/stronger mindset will not work against European teams where decision making (e.g., playing with your brain) is emphasized. This happens on the boys side too, obviously. The difference is we already see how that plays out internationally. The only reason the USMNT team is getting better is because a significant portion of those players play overseas.

I just wish we could deemphasize "win-now" and focus on development. That would, of course, require coaches, players and parents to adjust their lenses significantly.

This is from the year prior and one age group older.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I 100% agree with most of what you are saying. Fortunately the USWNT (to include the juniors) is a collection of players from across the country and from different clubs. US Soccer has pick of the litter...the ECNL/GA best teams aren't competing on the world stage. The ECNL/GA game doesn't translate to what US soccer teaches on the field during ID events, regional camps, and team training camps. Our daugthers are 100% trainable and can make the adjustment from club play to national team play. They do it every year, transitioning from club to HS and then back again.

Our YNTs did great work recently traveling abroad - dominating at every age group. Our pipeline looks rather good for the next 10-15 years. Granted, they have to stick around, stay interested, healthy, etc. Our talent pool is much bigger than anywhere else in the world.

The downside of our system is some of what you describe above. Development isn't the best but patience doesn't make money for clubs. US Soccer sits back and cherry picks the best...

I think it's just a learning process for American parents / families that didn't grow up playing or watching soccer that much.

Wanting to win isn't a bad thing + you shouldn't expect losses just because teams are learning to play possession soccer.

What clubs could do to make things easier / more clear for parents is explain the skillsets that they're looking for in players during + before tryouts. As a parent it sucks when you see coaches skipping over skilled players in favor of the biggest ones or the ones that are big + aggressive to goal but have literally no foot skills or ability to pass. Every coach thinks they can teach players foot skills which may or not be true but by skipping over skilled players for size sets a precedent of what the club values.

Parents are just reacting to what the clubs are defining as value.

 

[paytoplay]

I 100% agree with most of what you are saying. Fortunately the USWNT (to include the juniors) is a collection of players from across the country and from different clubs. US Soccer has pick of the litter...the ECNL/GA best teams aren't competing on the world stage. The ECNL/GA game doesn't translate to what US soccer teaches on the field during ID events, regional camps, and team training camps. Our daugthers are 100% trainable and can make the adjustment from club play to national team play. They do it every year, transitioning from club to HS and then back again.

Our YNTs did great work recently traveling abroad - dominating at every age group. Our pipeline looks rather good for the next 10-15 years. Granted, they have to stick around, stay interested, healthy, etc. Our talent pool is much bigger than anywhere else in the world.

The downside of our system is some of what you describe above. Development isn't the best but patience doesn't make money for clubs. US Soccer sits back and cherry picks the best...

To a casual observer or disinterested soccer fan, this is probably not a problem. I know a lot of parents on the sideline that aren’t interested and don’t understand soccer. That’s fine. I rarely watch the same sports I grew up with. But, most of us have players somewhere in the pipeline, with dreams and goals, and we’re all invested personally and monetarily. Maybe a minority of us are frustrated and voice it: the corruption, literal pay to play, terrible and toxic coaching, fraud, favoritism, and the belief that while our players give 100%, the system is half-ass and underperforming. Some of us are also fans of the beautiful game. USWNT is not playing to my personal satisfaction. So what, if a country 10x the size of Canada and pouring billions more into youth soccer than the entire gdp of Haiti, can barrel it’s way to a 1-0 win! I guess these are first world problems anyway.

 

[Happened again]

To a casual observer or disinterested soccer fan, this is probably not a problem. I know a lot of parents on the sideline that aren’t interested and don’t understand soccer. That’s fine. I rarely watch the same sports I grew up with. But, most of us have players somewhere in the pipeline, with dreams and goals, and we’re all invested personally and monetarily. Maybe a minority of us are frustrated and voice it: the corruption, literal pay to play, terrible and toxic coaching, fraud, favoritism, and the belief that while our players give 100%, the system is half-ass and underperforming. Some of us are also fans of the beautiful game. USWNT is not playing to my personal satisfaction. So what, if a country 10x the size of Canada and pouring billions more into youth soccer than the entire gdp of Haiti, can barrel it’s way to a 1-0 win! I guess these are first world problems anyway.

I suppose it depends on which pipeline you are in. Youth sports can be categorized as many things...you can simultaneously say it's a scam and it's a great way to develop your fledgling citizen. Both can be true.

The will to win will drive corruption, pay to play, toxicity, fraud, favoritism. Happens on the dirt pitches and the turf pitches at all ages, organized or not organized --human nature.

Back to the idea that we are either falling behind or other countries are catching up..maybe...but again our youth teams continue to be the best in the world. We like to win and will continue to pour money into the funnel, whether that's your own money to get youd DD to play at the "next level" or someone else's money.

 

[NorCalDad]

This is from the year prior and one age group older.

Night and day. That FCB team played lights out -- to criticize them for anything would be nitpicking. Everyone should watch this video. I would love to see the metrics from this game (possession, fouls, shots, etc). Even around the 25 minute of the video the announcers are talking exactly about what we are here.

Thanks for posting this @LASTMAN14. I'm going to use this going forward to show people exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Happened again]

I think it's just a learning process for American parents / families that didn't grow up playing or watching soccer that much.

Wanting to win isn't a bad thing + you shouldn't expect losses just because teams are learning to play possession soccer.

What clubs could do to make things easier / more clear for parents is explain the skillsets that they're looking for in players during + before tryouts. As a parent it sucks when you see coaches skipping over skilled players in favor of the biggest ones or the ones that are big + aggressive to goal but have literally no foot skills or ability to pass. Every coach thinks they can teach players foot skills which may or not be true but by skipping over skilled players for size sets a precedent of what the club values.

Parents are just reacting to what the clubs are defining as value.

I don't disgree at all. It's two separate things....USWNT and club soccer. More thought is put into assessing and selecting talent for the national teams. Big+agressive isn't the #1 criteria for US soccer. Sophia Smith is 5'6", Caterina Macario is 5"5, Rose Lavelle is 5'4". Sure, there are some bigger players - Alana Cook, Lindsay Horan, etc...but there isn't a pattern so to speak. Other countries have big and small players. At this age it's more about skill than size. I don't think Rose Lavelle is intimidated by Alana Cook to NOT go one on one with her.

Club soccer provides the pipeline, certain universities further refine the pipeline...US soccer provides the guidance, tools, and routine tuning up.

It's a model that other countries would love to replicate but most can't.