Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands. I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here. Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".
Women's CONCACAF World Cup Qualifying
- Thread starter kickingandscreaming
- Start date
Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands. I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here. Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
we are beating a dead horse. Plenty of coaches that agree with you.. Unfortunately there are more parents that just want to win. US Soccer on the girls side will continue to cook up their recipe. If an ingredient needs to be substituted/adjusted..then so be it.
You will need more than a new ingredient -- perhaps a new kitchen.
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SILVER ELITE
I don't know how much soccer you've personally played in your life or what soccer outside of Norcal you've witnessed. Plenty of ingredients to soccer, you could debate the details forever, tactics and strategies abound, esepcially when players get older. Should we teach skills? sure...is possession and building out of the back a skill...no, it's a strategy and it's game/opponent dependent. I get what you are saying and generally agree.
The resources available at FCB to develop skills at an early age and carry it through are somewhat higher than lets say MVLA, Surf, PDA, etc. At the end of the pipeline though, countries like spain will likely never be a perrenial finalist at the world cup or the olympics. Even with dips in performance and transitioning from the old guard to the youngsters, the US will be hard to beat...we have too many athletes in the pipeline.
Big, strong, fast, and skilled teams usually win out against the smaller fast, skilled teams. Size does matter, even in soccer. Messi is an outlier. Defensive shape matters - have the time of your life possessing and building and switching the field. Don't finish in the final third and that big, strong, fast, skilled team will counter you to death. Liverpool comes to mind in the EPL - check out their shape just prior to the counter. They are really good at it, as was Arsenal back in the Wenger days.
Code
GOLD
Did Irvine pay full price to the federal government for the land Great Park sits on? No, they annexed it from El Toro when the base was closed? Did Irvine pay for the development of parks space and structures, to include the fields, ice rink, stadiums, etc.? No a public private partnership was established where private companies invested in building the park so they could also build and sell homes there. The local special tax was created to provide the infrastructure for the park, roads and utilities. There are no clear records of where those tax dollars are really being spent, but it is most likely not on the park, as the land and built enviornment are not a part of the cost. Irvine was practically given Great Park for free.
Code
GOLD
These Leagues exsit because parents are giving them money. I agree that there is no need for more than one elite league in SoCal, and local play could provide the challenge 95% of the players need. Blaming the leagues is not the solution, it is the parents who participate in the farce. If parents stop placing players in those teams, the leagues go away. There are plenty of play options in SOCAL NPL and Flight 1 teams for everyone. No need for governement oversight of youth soccer.
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
The kitchen is just fine - new ingredients to keep things fresh. England is a build and possesion team. To play like the US plays, we need athletes with skill. Teams that rely on possession are often vulnerable. If you can't play out or you turn the ball over as you try to adjust, the USWNT is way too athletic and skilled and will make you pay. At a minimum they just grind you down. We've gotten older and had been unable to string an entire tournament's worth of effective effort. Beat the high press and you isolate the back line - pretty much happened when they won bronze. Fresh ingredients will help, keep the kitchen.
Wrong. It was Irvine before it became a military base, and then it was rightfully returned. Clubs are getting a massive subsidy to sell their wares, compliments Irvine taxpayers. Would be funny if they started charging $12 to park—We need more of that innovative club stuff.
I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead. Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable. Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal. But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level. Plus family members have played abroad. Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league). Am I an authority? Nope. No more than most folks on these forums.
I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill. I think it's both a strategy and a skill. Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession. A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game". It's just not that easy. The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now". Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way. It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.
I think there is a time and a place to play directly, low block, high block, etc. Heck even Man City will step out of their possession comfort zone depending on the opponent. In that scenario it's a conscious decision to do so. Unfortunately, very few youth clubs teach these skills so that players have an arsenal of options in their quiver.
Also, Messi isn't the only "outlier". Pretty sure Kante, Maradona, Xavi, Insigne, etc would like to have a word with you
Also it's well documented that EPL players are bigger/taller than La Liga players. Interestingly enough, La Liga teams have fared far better in the Champions League than EPL teams over the last 20ish years. It's really not close.kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
It's probably a lot more due to this - This was 2015, but will filter to the National team in subsequent years. Or, we can go with your explanation - these other countries have "alpha" males and "beta" females but the US has "beta" males and "alpha" females.
According to FIFA, only about 12 percent of youth soccer players are girls. And the U.S. makes up more than half of that total, says Morris.
@kickingandscreaming and @NorCalDad- The last game I saw that had two girls teams buy into possession was Deza'a Quakes v my dd old Surf team in 2017. It was beautiful to watch and I thought it would help change the way ALL the girls played this sport. Both GK's NEVER punted the ball and always worked from the back and try and work it up the field. The girls on my dd team bought into this style 18 months prior. The rules were simple: Pass the ball within three touches and then run. Triangle offense so to speak and wear your opponent down or find the bench next to coach to learn how to share the rock and not be a ball hog. CM's 100% had to buy in or it won't work and thank God they did. My dd got nice assists from them and we won the Natty. The girls before this were taught "Smash Ball" and "get out of way" kind of the play. Big, fast, athletic and tough as nails players and super strong willed. Kickball and Rugby all in one. Dangerous and not how the game should be played for females, moo. I ran into a top coach and he said it won't work in college unless you get recruited to Stanford and I teach the girls to be prepared for the Truth, which is college smash ball. If you have to win, then you do whatever it takes to win. MVLA was also a very good posssion team. I told that coach no way my dd would have made it in your system of direct kickball. Hopefully some day the game can change for the safety of all the girls. I just got word of another ACL injury.
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Happened again
SILVER ELITE
I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead. Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable. Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal. But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level. Plus family members have played abroad. Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league). Am I an authority? Nope. No more than most folks on these forums.
I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill. I think it's both a strategy and a skill. Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession. A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game". It's just not that easy. The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now". Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way. It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.
I think there is a time and a place to play directly, low block, high block, etc. Heck even Man City will step out of their possession comfort zone depending on the opponent. In that scenario it's a conscious decision to do so. Unfortunately, very few youth clubs teach these skills so that players have an arsenal of options in their quiver.
Also, Messi isn't the only "outlier". Pretty sure Kante, Maradona, Xavi, Insigne, etc would like to have a word with you
I certainly appreciate your response and thanks for providing a bit of personal info, provides context to your position. I too shall share a bit... - I played through college, as did hubby (he's on here from time to time), then moved on to professional life and kids.
We'll agree to disagree, possession is a strategy that requires skills (first touch comes to mind, amongst others). As far as the CL is concerned, Real Madrid has certainly been a dominant force...but take a peek at their roster size along their back line. I'm sure Kante and others would have objected to my statement and meant no disrespect. Messi remains an outlier in modern times.
club soccer in the US is a money making venture, that won't ever change. Find a club that teaches skills and prioritizes development. Figure out which direction (if any) your kid wants to go, then go from there. US soccer will do their own thing - I focus on the women's side, the men's side will never move beyond knock out rounds but should be more fun to watch in the coming years.
GoldenGate
GOLD
I was not talking about men's soccer. The fact that you think they're the same sport and should therefore be played the same way is misogynistic and naive.
You are seriously relying on a club game played by two girls teams as proof that the USWNT, winner of two straight WCs and half the WCs ever played, should start playing like a country that has never won a knockout stage game in its life? What a joke. You watched one soccer game played between a regional US club team and what is presumably the finest players that Spain has to offer all consolidated on one team and constantly training together, and you conclude that Spain knows what is going on? Seriously?
Can you tell me how many of those PDA girls will leverage their ability to play soccer into college opportunity and scholarships? What do you think those Barca girls will all be doing when they're 19? How many of the PDA kids will be better off as adults because of their soccer compared to the Barca players? You have not clue what the point of elite club soccer even is.
GoldenGate
GOLD
You were saying this 10 years ago with Japan. You were saying this 6 years ago even with Spain, and they still have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament in their history. If anyone is on spin cycle, it's you. The one thing that makes one country consistently better than another at a sport is that more kids play it at a high level over a longer span of years. That's it. If you had your way, you would take that advantage away from the US. You are an idiot.
Yes, @GoldenGate it was just one video that convinced me that we need to change everything. You nailed it. I have watched MANY games in person and online at pretty much every level. I do agree with you the woman's side is almost a completely different sport than the men's side. In fact this likely explains why there is a higher rate of concussions on the woman's side.
I think every single one of those girls on the FCB team could land on a D1 roster if that's the path they wanted to take. This is already what happens on the mens side. As I said earlier, I think the collegiate approach to athletics in the US is much better for the masses than the academy approach in Europe -- purely from the perspective that not everyone will go pro and will actually need an education.
Like I said earlier -- let's circle back in 10 years and see where things land.
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
you must be very small - so angry, so entertaining.
I never said any of those things -- I've only been on this site for a couple of years.
That said, a good exercise might be to go watch the Spanish woman's side play 10 years ago versus today. Is there a difference? I may dig into this later when I have some time.
I've always said @GoldenGate is a master of words. Even when it's targeted at me I can appreciate the word smithing.
GoldenGate
GOLD
I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead. Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable. Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal. But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level. Plus family members have played abroad. Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league). Am I an authority? Nope. No more than most folks on these forums.
I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill. I think it's both a strategy and a skill. Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession. A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game". It's just not that easy. The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now". Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way. It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.
I think there is a time and a place to play directly, low block, high block, etc. Heck even Man City will step out of their possession comfort zone depending on the opponent. In that scenario it's a conscious decision to do so. Unfortunately, very few youth clubs teach these skills so that players have an arsenal of options in their quiver.
Also, Messi isn't the only "outlier". Pretty sure Kante, Maradona, Xavi, Insigne, etc would like to have a word with you
It makes perfect sense if you were an "elite" American soccer player back in the day. Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports. They have lived their entire lives with chips on their shoulders, deluding themselves that they were athletes too, but the reality is they couldn't hold a candle to the real athletes who excelled at basketball, football and even baseball. They try to make themselves feel better by rationalizing that soccer is "special" because it requires tremendous skill but other sports don't, and now they carry that delusion forward because they're desperate for their middling level athlete princess to be "elite" too. The reality, however, is that other sports require every bit as much skill as soccer, and the vast majority of boys who played it back in the 1980s would have been in the chess club if soccer had been where the real athletes gravitated. The reality is that the genetic limitations that people like you gifted to your daughters will prevent them from becoming truly elite soccer players no matter how much "technical skill" and "classroom knowledge" they pick up.
You're also never going to realize that men's and women's soccer are two completely different sports, are you? Although the fields are the same size, they are actually significantly larger for women because men are faster and stronger overall. This puts more of a premium on differences in pure athleticism, which is more important on the women's side than the men's and it always will.
GoldenGate
GOLD
I never said you said those things here. You've been saying them to yourself and your friends for over a decade. You know you have.
10 years ago when Spain was terrible they had just as many knockout stage wins as they do now that they're so great.
Nope I haven't. I probably started to think about it a bit about 3 years ago as I got deeper into this.