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GoldenGate said:
If you're really asking me whether 12 months of hormone therapy and requiring that she meet certain hormone levels in order to compete in women's swimming, I do think that's enough even if it means she still has a "competitive advantage". College sports isn't some sacred thing, and who wins a race in a pool is not nearly as important as the need for society to treat people with dignity and respect in my opinion, and the opinion of those making the rules. If that means one trans woman in history wins a college national championship, fine.

She is not exploiting anything. She is fully complying with the rules set by the NCAA, which has allowed trans women to compete for more than a decade. Maybe the participation requirements should change to be more in line with those required by the IOC, maybe not since it's just a college swim meet and there is much more to college sports than just winning and losing, those are legitimate discussions worth having. Most of those on the other side, however, aren't willing to even refer to her as she let alone refrain from offensive comments. And because too many continue to treat transgender women like shit, the more important it is to provide them with opportunity. The NCAA and I believe that equality has very little to do with who wins a race in a pool.

In response to your "concern" about an MMA fighter breaking someone's skull, that pales in comparison to the safety issues that transgender women face every day. It also has nothing to do with college sports. Regardless, no matter how much people want to parse out sports as some sacred thing, it isn't. It's just one of the million things in life and, accordingly, the NCAA is putting it into context. Trans participation in sports helps normalize transgender status in society overall, so great.

www.hrc.org

Fatal Violence Against the Transgender and Gender-Expansive Community…

Sadly, 2021 has already seen at least 60 transgender or gender-expansive people fatally shot or killed by other violent means. We say at least because…
www.hrc.org www.hrc.org
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Fair enough.

The only point I will make is that the US Swimming and NCAA standard is actually 3 years now.
 
watfly said:
Fair enough.

The only point I will make is that the US Swimming and NCAA standard is actually 3 years now.
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Those standards are political compromises.

Look at it from a different viewpoint -- if a girl of age 10 or so showed some athletic talent, enough so that her parents and a willing doctor administered a 10-year course of growth hormones and testosterone to boost her bone and muscle mass, would we consider that young lady to be a fair competitor?
 
espola said:
Those standards are political compromises.

Look at it from a different viewpoint -- if a girl of age 10 or so showed some athletic talent, enough so that her parents and a willing doctor administered a 10-year course of growth hormones and testosterone to boost her bone and muscle mass, would we consider that young lady to be a fair competitor?
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No, not even if they lowered the dosage in her last three years.
 
espola said:
Where does Messi compete against women for money and prizes?
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Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13. He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot. If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?
 
GoldenGate said:
The circumstances in which transgender athletes should or shouldn't be allowed to participate in women's sports is fundamentally a legitimate and reasonable debate. What is neither legitimate nor reasonable, however, is the manner in which people like you and your friends make dehumanizing comments and flat out refuse to even listen to the legitimate arguments being made by the side that you disagree with. It would be one thing if you and your friends simply weighed the pros and cons differently. Instead, you and your transphobic friends are barely capable of anything more than offensive memes, accusing transgender women of cheating although they're complying with NCAA rules, calling them "he", mocking them for having dicks, and make ridiculously stupid arguments about how Webster's dictionary should be the sports rulebook. Although the NCAA has spent tons of time researching the issue and listening to all (reasonable) people, and continues to tweak participation requirements, you and your friends just call them "corrupt" as a pathetic way to just refuse to even listen.

Ironically, the more dehumanizing comments that people like you and your friends make, the more the debate weighs in favor of allowing transgender women to participate in women's sports. People like you make it clear that you aren't open to having a real discussion, you're only open to continuing to treat transgender women like shit. People like you don't get invited to the table for this debate because you don't belong there. The extent of your participation in the decision making process is that the posts and memes that you and your like minded transphobic friends pass around on social media get to be exhibits for the side that supports transgender participation.
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Hypocrite much?
 
GoldenGate said:
Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13. He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot. If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?
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That's only half of my proposed treatment, and we were discussing competition in women's sports.

There was a cheerful, aggressive, skillful player on one of my son's club teams one year. His only problem on the field was that he was small. We lost track of him for several years and then saw him jogging the high school track during summer vacation. He had to introduce himself because we didn't recognize him. He had really grown up, enough so that he was playing linebacker for a D2 college. His parents had paid for HGH treatments until he went from well-below-average size for his age to above average.
 
GoldenGate said:
Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13. He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot. If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?
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Those aren't remotely comparable. Furthermore, Messi had a growth condition and his use of HGH was therapeutic during puberty and there is no evidence that he continued treatments as an adult. So you could say that the HGH prevented him from being size disadvantaged, but it hardly provided him with a size advantage since he is only 5'7". Nor does he show any evidence of superior muscle mass as compared to other players.

espola said:
That's only half of my proposed treatment, and we were discussing competition in women's sports.

There was a cheerful, aggressive, skillful player on one of my son's club teams one year. His only problem on the field was that he was small. We lost track of him for several years and then saw him jogging the high school track during summer vacation. He had to introduce himself because we didn't recognize him. He had really grown up, enough so that he was playing linebacker for a D2 college. His parents had paid for HGH treatments until he went from well-below-average size for his age to above average.
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Having almost gone through treatments with one of our kids, HGH treatments for undersized youth are done pre-puberty and/or puberty. And as I understand it, it can only add a couple inches to short kids but doesn't do much for tall kids. In fact, it mostly just accelerates puberty, and is most often used in the cases of delayed puberty. That's my lay understanding of it, correct me if I'm wrong.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Growth hormone injections add height, but kids stay short

Growth hormone injections appear to boost height in extremely short, healthy children, according to a recent systematic review, but height gain appears to peak at about three inches and those...
www.medicalnewstoday.com www.medicalnewstoday.com
 
GoldenGate said:
Messi showed enough athletic talent that he took HGH for almost 8 years beginning at age 11, paid for by Barcelona FC beginning age at 13. He would literally inject it every night. It certainly boosted his bone and muscle mass, including his height by a foot. If that's unfair for a woman, why is it fair for a man?
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is he bigger, taller, faster than your average footballer?
 
what-happened said:
is he bigger, taller, faster than your average footballer?
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He would have topped out at under 5 feet tall without the HGH. And, yes, he was much faster than your average soccer player. In fact, he was probably the quickest soccer player in history. Never would he have had the combination of speed, strength and leverage that he needed to become the player he was without the HGH.
 
watfly said:
I'll bite again. I happen to agree with this statement. Do you think that 1.5 years after competing as a male and having hormone treatment is sufficient time to justify competing as a male? As I mentioned before I lean towards allowing those that transitioned pre-puberty to compete in women's competitions.

I don't believe Lia Thomas transitioned to beat women in swimming. But I believe she was given a gift to be able to transition (a gift that isn't available to many for various reasons) and now she is exploiting that gift.

Not for all, but for many this isn't an issue of transphobia but an issue of equity.
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...is a pre-puberty transitioned male still a male?
 
met61 said:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you compromise the Truth."

~My spin on Voltaire
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You're confusing manners with belief.

Referring to someone using their preferred form of address is just polite. It is not normally a statement of belief or disbelief in the accuracy of the title or pronoun.

Is it TRUE that Caitlyn Jenner is female? Nope. XY, no eggs, no ovaries. Not female. Do I care? Also no. Best of luck to her.
 
Desert Hound said:
Not transphobic in the least.

What people want to do individually I could care less about.

But when a man wants to compete against women it isnt right. That isnt transphobic. That is a matter of fairness to actual women.

A guy saying he is a woman doesn't make him so. It does not entitle him to compete in womens sports.

It is as ridiculous as me a white guy one day saying I am black and demanding you treat me as such and then get affirmative action, loans for minorities, live in minority dorms on campus, etc.
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It's unfair that black people "get affirmative action"? We all know you want to say it.
 
met61 said:
...is a pre-puberty transitioned male still a male?
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Not in terms of chromosomes, no. But pretty freaking close in terms of biology and appearance. In fact, if you saw my son's friend (who is FTM) in a women's restroom you'd probably complain about guys using women's restrooms.
 
dad4 said:
You're confusing manners with belief.

Referring to someone using their preferred form of address is just polite. It is not normally a statement of belief or disbelief in the accuracy of the title or pronoun.

Is it TRUE that Caitlyn Jenner is female? Nope. XY, no eggs, no ovaries. Not female. Do I care? Also no. Best of luck to her.
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I would just note that when Caitlyn was Bruce he was arguably one of the best male athletes of all-time.
 
GoldenGate said:
He would have topped out at under 5
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dad4 said:
You're confusing manners with belief.

Referring to someone using their preferred form of address is just polite. It is not normally a statement of belief or disbelief in the accuracy of the title or pronoun.

Is it TRUE that Caitlyn Jenner is female? Nope. XY, no eggs, no ovaries. Not female. Do I care? Also no. Best of luck to her.
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... confusing is an ArithmeLogic Numbers Guy using, of all things, manners as justification for compromising the Truth. But sure, making up words and playing loose with their meanings can be fun and mostly harmless...but, claiming politeness has a role in Truth versus lie is absurd...and you know it.

I support manners and politeness in letting someone know your unwillingness to compromise the Truth and participate in a lie.
 
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