Vaccine

[espola]

Not saying it's you, but some of the people on the pro-mask/pro-mandate/pro-lockdown side of things don't seem to realize that you guys are essentially scape goating the unvaccinated. Yes, there's a problem with some unvaccinated (particularly those from 30-65 that are clogging up the hospitals). But no, given what's going on with breakthroughs, it's not all the unvaccinated's fault. I know as humans we need someone to blame. We all had our hopes up that this would be over by July 4. Even dad4 proudly proclaimed it would be over in a couple weeks. Now that it's not, we need someone to blame and the unvaxxed are a convenient target.

It's not "scapegoating" if they really are the core of the problem.

 

[espola]

You actually claiming the vaccine is working perfectly? You always make me laugh, unlike good old EOTL.

Another strawman.

No surprise, either -- it seems that you think that that is an effective tactic. It doesn't work with intelligent people or those who are onto your game.

 

[Grace T.]

I am not saying that people won’t cheat on the rules. Clearly, they do.

I am saying what the hell is wrong with you people. We have 650,000 people dead from this, and people are still trying to find ways and excuses to avoid doing their part to help.

In the airline case, it's not the adult's fault. They are just bending a rule already put in place (and which BTW is the same situation they see right now with indoor dining). You think it's important not to do theater and to actually mask people, ban food and drinks on airplanes. You think it's important to wear masks indoor in high risk situations, ban indoor dining and bars. You don't wanna though because you know people wouldn't support that, so we're left with theater.

 

[Grace T.]

It's not "scapegoating" if they really are the core of the problem.

First, what's the problem you are trying to solve.

Second, no they aren't. The issue is the vaccines despite the initial hope are not 100% effective against symptoms/transmissions....maybe not enough in the high %s....even folks like dad4 wanted it over by July 4 and now they are looking for people to blame.

 

[espola]

In the airline case, it's not the adult's fault. They are just bending a rule already put in place (and which BTW is the same situation they see right now with indoor dining). You think it's important not to do theater and to actually mask people, ban food and drinks on airplanes. You think it's important to wear masks indoor in high risk situations, ban indoor dining and bars. You don't wanna though because you know people wouldn't support that, so we're left with theater.

You make an unsupported claim and then use that as evidence in later arguments.

Just trying to be helpful here -- maybe you don't know you are doing it.

 

[crush]

Golden Gate, please come out to debate me. Espola and Dad are back up to their old tricks again. Blame it on the rain or me is find and dandy. God knows the truth and so does the NSA and Space Force. They have it all, nowhere to run and nowhere to hide losers.

 

[espola]

First, what's the problem you are trying to solve.

Second, no they aren't. The issue is the vaccines despite the initial hope are not 100% effective against symptoms/transmissions....maybe not enough in the high %s....even folks like dad4 wanted it over by July 4 and now they are looking for people to blame.

The people to blame are those who are convincing others not to wear masks in risky situations and not to get vaccinated.

Do you know anyone like that?

 

[Bruddah IZ]

I am not saying that people won’t cheat on the rules. Clearly, they do.

I am saying what the hell is wrong with you people. We have 650,000 people dead from this, and people are still trying to find ways and excuses to avoid doing their part to help.

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

The people to blame are those who are convincing others not to wear masks in risky situations and not to get vaccinated.

Do you know anyone like that?

Strawman

 

[Grace T.]

Another strawman.

No surprise, either -- it seems that you think that that is an effective tactic. It doesn't work with intelligent people or those who are onto your game.

a. the fact that you put yourself in the "intelligent people" category made me snort. Like how I used the quotes?
b. you still don't know what a strawman is. It's what you questioned directly.
c. you yourself just ducked the issue.
d. again, you pulled another Magoo.

 

[dad4]

Not saying it's you, but some of the people on the pro-mask/pro-mandate/pro-lockdown side of things don't seem to realize that you guys are essentially scape goating the unvaccinated. Yes, there's a problem with some unvaccinated (particularly those from 30-65 that are clogging up the hospitals). But no, given what's going on with breakthroughs, it's not all the unvaccinated's fault. I know as humans we need someone to blame. We all had our hopes up that this would be over by July 4. Even dad4 proudly proclaimed it would be over in a couple weeks. Now that it's not, we need someone to blame and the unvaxxed are a convenient target.

Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1. If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.

People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem. If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free. Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.

 

[Grace T.]

You make an unsupported claim and then use that as evidence in later arguments.

Just trying to be helpful here -- maybe you don't know you are doing it.

What's the unsupported claim?

 

[Bruddah IZ]

It's not "scapegoating" if they really are the core of the problem.

Straw woman

 

[Grace T.]

Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1. If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.

People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem. If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free. Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.

Same question to you as espola: what's the current problem?

The Delta Wave?

Cases are not a problem. They are merely a number. If we had a Delta wave purely in the under 12 set would it still be a problem?

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Even for delta R for a masked, vaccinated population is below 1. If the unmasked ad unvaccinated people had been willing to do their part, we would not even have a delta surge.

People are blaming the unmasked and unvaccinated because the unmasked and unvaccinated are causing the current problem. If you don’t like being blamed, the pharmacy will sell you a mask and give you a shot for free. Then you can be part of the solution instead of just making things worse.

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.

 

[dad4]

In the airline case, it's not the adult's fault. They are just bending a rule already put in place (and which BTW is the same situation they see right now with indoor dining). You think it's important not to do theater and to actually mask people, ban food and drinks on airplanes. You think it's important to wear masks indoor in high risk situations, ban indoor dining and bars. You don't wanna though because you know people wouldn't support that, so we're left with theater.

If you choose to bend the rule, then it is your fault.

What happend to the whole notion of personal responsibility? “Yes, I am choosing to ignore the rules, but it’s not my fault. It’s the airlines fault for not kicking my sorry ass off the plane.”

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.

I was so optimistic about the vaccine rollout and poof, it was gone. Also, if Fauci would have pushed for a longer wait between the first and second shots, there would have been more availability for first shots earlier - before the mistake of the J&J Pause.

 

[Grace T.]

The people to blame are those who are convincing others not to wear masks in risky situations and not to get vaccinated.

Scapegoating.

Again, you haven't defined even what exactly the problem is you are trying to solve.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

If you choose to bend the rule, then it is your fault.

What happend to the whole notion of personal responsibility? “Yes, I am choosing to ignore the rules, but it’s not my fault. It’s the airlines fault for not kicking my sorry ass off the plane.”

What about ignoring personal liberty and rights to due process that you are advocating. Australia is great this time of year.

 

[Grace T.]

If you choose to bend the rule, then it is your fault.

What happend to the whole notion of personal responsibility? “Yes, I am choosing to ignore the rules, but it’s not my fault. It’s the airlines fault for not kicking my sorry ass off the plane.”

So is it my responsibility to gobble up my food as quick as possible?
Do I need to be putting my mask up and down between sips?
What if I'm drunk and I get on the plane and fall asleep?
What if I accidentally fall asleep?
What I just take my time eating my meal?
What if everyone on that flight takes their time eating the meal....that have more effect than the handful of 5 year olds without their masks with the big gaping holes on the side?

Again, we've had this argument before. Personal responsibility is all fine and good, but you can't set policy assuming everyone is going to be angels. You have to assume there will be aholes in there.

I told you the story before about the LARP my son and I played at Disneyland and how people reacted to every rule revision by finding creative solutions. People are clever and given a chance to bend (not break) the rule they will take it. But as we've discussed before, while I'm doing policy, you are doing religion