Vaccine

[GoldenGate]

This right there tells you that no you don't know what you are talking about. If a vaxx has only been around for 10 months or so, we cannot possibly know if there are long term issues with it.

Right now they are looking at short term issues. And fortunately enough in the short term there doesn't appear to be much concern. However long term issues by definition take a few years or longer. Do we know the affects of giving vaccines to pregnant mothers and if it is safe for the kids? No. And countless other issues have not yet been studied long term.



If you ask a doctor or scientist if we know the long term affects of the vaccine, nobody can tell you honestly if there will or will not be issues. Why? It takes years to determine that. Which is why vaccines develop over the course of years so they can test. Today in the short term there appears to be little issue with the vax which is a great thing. We don't know what the future holds however when we look back over years of data.

You seem to miss that obvious point. You cannot know the long term affects (if any) until we have years of data.

And for Dr Horse Paste. The guy writing wasn't endorsing the doctor in Idaho. He stated that in the past when issues arose or people started seeing something, the scientific course of action would be to investigate the claims rather than dismissing them outright. He wasn't defending the doc, etc. Just pointing out that when politics wasn't involved inquiry and research would be the preferred solution. In terms of the "horse paste" that medicine is also prescribed to humans all the time. I don't advocate going out and getting the vet version of the med in the least by the way. The press hyped the story and most failed to note the medicine is also regularly given to humans.



It isn't irrational in the least. We have many examples of gov entities mandating or talking about mandating vaccines. We have university systems doing it. We have parts of the federal government doing it. Private companies either doing it or considering it. Etc etc.


It isn't a few.

"So far, there are 24 states that require vaccination for employees of various categories."

And as you look at news articles you see more and more talk about mandates. This isn't idle talk.



The people in the high risk categories have been vaccinated here and in other 1st world countries at very high rates. Which is why deaths have fallen dramatically.

---

One see's a lot of concern about getting kids vaccinated...hoping a vax is approved for them. And schools talking about mandating it once approved. Many colleges are doing this.

These age groups have no real risk of covid. And yet people want them vaxxed. We know they are not at risk. We don't know if there are any long term complications from the vax.

And no it was no manifesto. You simply failed failed to read an understand what he meant. Based on your post above you cannot distinguish between the simple terms short term (which right now looks good in terms of safety) vs long term which will take years to study. That was one of the key points made. We simply do not yet know if there will be anything concerning and so to mandate people take it is something that deserves reasoned discussion.

You seem to struggle with that concept and call that a manifesto by some kook.



Will this also apply to gays and AIDS? Do they get to determine that this group may incur higher costs? Or do we not allow biz to do that?

Does this apply to obese workers? They cost more in terms of insurance/costs? Or do we not allow that?

There are all kinds of things employers could do to "limit cost" by firing employees for as you say risky behavior. And yet we don't allow that do we. And if we looked at some of the examples above and many others, I lay money you would not advocate that. If you were consistent in your approach however you would have to. Right? I mean now you are making an argument that biz should be able to cut all kinds of employees if they cost more money....

Hey now you are making an argument against pre-existing condition and health care insurance through work as well based on what you wrote above. Under the ACA, employers cannot impose a waiting period for coverage of a pre-existing condition. So I guess you are advocating we should get rid of that provision? It would save a lot of insurance costs for business as well.

See where I am going here?

Anyway lets keep it simple. Start with learning the difference between short term and long term. Then try this one. Find an article that talks about the known LONG TERM side affects (if any) of these vaccines. That search will be in vain.

I have no issue with the vaccines personally. They have helped tremendously for the actual at risk population. I also think if a person wants to get vaxxed, by all means do it. I don't like where many are increasingly going...vax passports, mandates, etc.

That is where I have an issue.

If in a number of years we have long term data and know if there are bad side affects and which types of people are at risk, then that would be the point one could say let us make it mandatory. At that point for instance we could exclude people with certain health factors where the vaccine isn't a good idea. That however will take years to determine how it affects various groups. You missed that very obvious point while typing horse as fast as you could.

Did you identify the "author" of the "expert medical opinion" somewhere in this mess? Or can we all now safely conclude that you were duped by a fake "doctor" at one of those conspiracy theory websites that you constantly peruse but don't want people to know about?

 

[crush]

MILESTONE: More than 80% of eligible Californians have at least one dose of the #COVID19 vaccine & we continue to lead the nation with 48M shots in arms. Now, we’re in a pandemic of the unvaccinated as they fill up hospitals & ICUs. Vaccines are how we end this pandemic.

 

[dad4]

He apparently didn’t either. The article levels criticism at the media, fauci and fda as well

it goes to my point that the sides have stopped talking to each other. Same thing with the Bangladesh mask study: “it proves masks work!” Instead of seeing a study with a lot of flaws that for what results it found were deeply nuanced and had a lot for both sides to hate.

Would this be the same Bangladesh study you completely and deliberately misrepresented a couple days ago?

You know, the one where your "summary" was explicitly disavowed by the authors.

 

[Grace T.]

Would this be the same Bangladesh study you completely and deliberately misrepresented a couple days ago?

You know, the one where your "summary" was explicitly disavowed by the authors.

You mean the one that should once and for all undermine your faith in cloth masks but you are still clinging to it like a talisman?

Hey, my approach on this one was down the middle....there's a lot for both pro and antimaskers to hate about that's study....it's problematic for both. More than anything it's illustrative that both sides have completely stopped being open minded or even speaking to each other. The fact you can't see how the study is problematic for your side speaks volumes....and did you see the new one out of Texas posted in the bad news thread....more problems. The one truism I've learned in my life whether parenting, soccer, COVID, work, or relationship is that things are messy and never ever neat.

 

[what-happened]

Here's another one for you --

so disappointing. the pervs at lp want nothing more than to have their boogey man back. kinda weird that you dig them but to each his own I suppose. I'm not going to judge you for posting a video that relies on the image of a blindfolded elderly man with a banana in his mouth to draw people in.

 

[Multi Sport]

How long did

What is your point beyond the headline? I was bated and clicked and what I found is this....

"Pfizer promoted the sale of Bextra for several uses and dosages that the FDA specifically declined to approve due to safety concerns. The company will pay a criminal fine of $1.195 billion, the largest criminal fine ever imposed in the United States for any matter. Pharmacia & Upjohn will also forfeit $105 million, for a total criminal resolution of $1.3 billion."

What this says to me is the government ensured that a drug company is not allowed to defraud the public with a drug that hasn't been appropriately approved by the FDA for use beyond what it was approved for, and the FDA would not approve a drug when safety concerns existed.

Really?

Here, maybe I can help you along..

What company is marketing a current vaccine as being safe?

Was that company sued for misleading marketing?

How long after the initial marketing/release by this company did it take for a lawsuit to brought against them?

How long has their vaccine been available?

 

[Kicker4Life]

You think a vaccine mandate will cause health care shortages.

Care to explain the mechanism? Sounds weak so far.

What happens to a Nurse or Dr that refuses vaccination?

A similar extrapolation to the delayed surgery argument.

 

[dad4]

You mean the one that should once and for all undermine your faith in cloth masks but you are still clinging to it like a talisman?

Hey, my approach on this one was down the middle....there's a lot for both pro and antimaskers to hate about that's study....it's problematic for both. More than anything it's illustrative that both sides have completely stopped being open minded or even speaking to each other. The fact you can't see how the study is problematic for your side speaks volumes....and did you see the new one out of Texas posted in the bad news thread....more problems. The one truism I've learned in my life whether parenting, soccer, COVID, work, or relationship is that things are messy and never ever neat.

It isn’t about cloth masks. It’s about honesty.

You flat out lied about what the study said. With me, that ends your credibility.

 

[dad4]

What happens to a Nurse or Dr that refuses vaccination?

A similar extrapolation to the delayed surgery argument.

Depends on how many people.

Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound. They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.

153 eventually quit or were fired. The other 24,972 got vaccinated.

I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.

 

[what-happened]

Depends on how many people.

Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound. They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.

153 eventually quit or were fired. The other 24,972 got vaccinated.

I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.

I don't think so either but it will impact locally in many places. I know of some health systems who are importing help. It's not being done in an ethical manner. Trading work visa for low wages is not a good trend and will in fact drive nurses away from their profession. We already have a nation wide shortage. Throw in covid policies and you'll see start to see rising negative impact on a healthcare worker popualtion that is most vital to us.

 

[Grace T.]

It isn’t about cloth masks. It’s about honesty.

You flat out lied about what the study said. With me, that ends your credibility.

p.s. thanks for proving my point that the two sides are pretty much done with each other. If Newsom isn't recalled or the virus doesn't somehow go away with this winter, it's two separate COVID Americas from here on out.

 

[Grace T.]

It isn’t about cloth masks. It’s about honesty.

You flat out lied about what the study said. With me, that ends your credibility.

You always impute the worst into people who challenge your beliefs. Why is that? Shocking. I posted the study for everyone to read and my main comment was there's a lot for everyone to hate there.

In any case, back at you re the cloth masks. If you are willing to die on that hills there's no help for you.

Strangely silent too about the Texas study. You always get testy when your beliefs are challenged

 

[Kicker4Life]

Depends on how many people.

Houston Methodist is a reasonable upper bound. They are the ones who cared enough to protest and file a lawsuit, after all.

153 eventually quit or were fired. The other 24,972 got vaccinated.

I don’t think vaccine refusal will cause a mass exodus from nursing.

No but it can lead to a staffing shortage. Never said anything about a mass exodus. Just as there is no longer a massive or overwhelming delay in surgeries due to Covid UCI occupancy. They are both more the exception than the rule.

 

[Desert Hound]

Did you identify the "author" of the "expert medical opinion" somewhere in this mess? Or can we all now safely conclude that you were duped by a fake "doctor" at one of those conspiracy theory websites that you constantly peruse but don't want people to know about?

Note how you avoid the point.

We don't know the long term side affects (if any). And he rightly points out that maybe you shouldn't mandate something when we don't know that important fact.

What part of that bothers you? What part of that is a conspiracy theory?

Do you understand the difference between short term (the period we are in now) vs long term (years out).

Or does that concept so confuse you that you simply call that a conspiracy theory?

 

[whatithink]

Note how you avoid the point.

We don't know the long term side affects (if any). And he rightly points out that maybe you shouldn't mandate something when we don't know that important fact.

What part of that bothers you? What part of that is a conspiracy theory?

Do you understand the difference between short term (the period we are in now) vs long term (years out).

Or does that concept so confuse you that you simply call that a conspiracy theory?

Adverse reactions to vaccines tend to occur in the first 2 months. Use of mRNA in vaccines has been studied for 2 decades. The first mRNA vaccine trial (human) was in 2009. Its not hard to research this, here's a useful article from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)

I attended a webinar hosted by a local HS a few weeks ago, where 3 Doctors reiterated the same thing (LT effects), and refuted a wealth of nonsense parents had complained about due to the COVID protocols the HS had put in place, using empirical evidence from reputable sources versus, you know, anonymous statements/positions/opinions from the internet.

BTW, when asked to comment on the low death rate for HS age, they were adamant that HS students should vaccinate. Basically, its about biology & science and preventing community spread. WRT risk of death, the pediatrician from Phoenix Childrens hospital put it this way (not a direct quote, but close enough), "After being on the front lines of this for the past 18 months, healthy kids get sick from COVID, healthy kids end up in hospital from COVID, healthy kids end up in ICU from COVID and healthy kids end up permanently disabled from COVID."

A friend of mine who is also a Doctor at Phoenix Childrens Hospital said they entered "code red" in late August (not sure if they still are). This was caused by the surge in COVID cases (back to school). It means that they were at capacity, i.e. they could admit no more patients. Her kids are vaccinated, she had zero hesitation.

As for the whole conspiracy theory piece, here's another interesting read for you, from a virologist in the UK whose work was hijacked and (selectively) used by anti-vaxers. He put his name to it, so, you know, not anonymous

As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers | David LV Bauer | The Guardian

 

[Grace T.]

1. More science!
2. If the Trump White House did this people would be screaming murder.

CDC tightened masking guidelines after threats from teachers' union, emails show

The CDC tightened its masking guidance after a prominent teachers' union threatened to release harsh criticism of the Biden administration's policy.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Desert Hound]

Adverse reactions to vaccines tend to occur in the first 2 months. Use of mRNA in vaccines has been studied for 2 decades. The first mRNA vaccine trial (human) was in 2009. Its not hard to research this, here's a useful article from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)

I attended a webinar hosted by a local HS a few weeks ago, where 3 Doctors reiterated the same thing (LT effects), and refuted a wealth of nonsense parents had complained about due to the COVID protocols the HS had put in place, using empirical evidence from reputable sources versus, you know, anonymous statements/positions/opinions from the internet.

BTW, when asked to comment on the low death rate for HS age, they were adamant that HS students should vaccinate. Basically, its about biology & science and preventing community spread. WRT risk of death, the pediatrician from Phoenix Childrens hospital put it this way (not a direct quote, but close enough), "After being on the front lines of this for the past 18 months, healthy kids get sick from COVID, healthy kids end up in hospital from COVID, healthy kids end up in ICU from COVID and healthy kids end up permanently disabled from COVID."

A friend of mine who is also a Doctor at Phoenix Childrens Hospital said they entered "code red" in late August (not sure if they still are). This was caused by the surge in COVID cases (back to school). It means that they were at capacity, i.e. they could admit no more patients. Her kids are vaccinated, she had zero hesitation.

As for the whole conspiracy theory piece, here's another interesting read for you, from a virologist in the UK whose work was hijacked and (selectively) used by anti-vaxers. He put his name to it, so, you know, not anonymous

As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers | David LV Bauer | The Guardian

It isn't hard to research.

There has never been an rMNA vaccine used anywhere in the world prior to covid. There has been some studies on them. All phase 1 studies.

There has not been any long term studies on them.

So for instance one might ask if kids under 17 have no risk of covid, why mandate them to get vaccines until long term studies have been completed...right?

Here is an overview of the rMNA. Talking about how it is new and talking about a few trails that got to stage 1.

Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?

A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics

www.medpagetoday.com

Here is the CDC letting us know it is new.

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.

www.cdc.gov

By they way when you talk anonymous, anti vaxx...I ask again...

What part of not knowing the long term affects of the vaccines do you disagree with? That is a reasonable question. That is not arguing DONT take it. But none the less. By definition on the covid vaccines there are no long term studies done on them. There cannot be since we are still in the short term.

We don't know for example....
Should pregnant women take it?
Should young children?
What about someone with X condition?
How does it react with medications people are taking for other health issues?

There are a whole host of unknowns.

Nobody knows.

That isn't an argument for NOT taking it by the way.

In the short term they have shown to have few issues. And have certainly helped the at risk groups.

However it is an entirely reasonable position to say...wait until we have studied it longer before we mandate people to take it.

Or is that somehow an anti vax or conspiratorial position to take?

 

[Grace T.]

It isn't hard to research.

There has never been an rMNA vaccine used anywhere in the world prior to covid. There has been some studies on them. All phase 1 studies.

There has not been any long term studies on them.

So for instance one might ask if kids under 17 have no risk of covid, why mandate them to get vaccines until long term studies have been completed...right?

Here is an overview of the rMNA. Talking about how it is new and talking about a few trails that got to stage 1.

Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?

A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics

www.medpagetoday.com

Here is the CDC letting us know it is new.

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.

www.cdc.gov

By they way when you talk anonymous, anti vaxx...I ask again...

What part of not knowing the long term affects of the vaccines do you disagree with? That is a reasonable question. That is not arguing DONT take it. But none the less. By definition on the covid vaccines there are no long term studies done on them. There cannot be since we are still in the short term.

We don't know for example....
Should pregnant women take it?
Should young children?
What about someone with X condition?
How does it react with medications people are taking for other health issues?

There are a whole host of unknowns.

Nobody knows.

That isn't an argument for NOT taking it by the way.

In the short term they have shown to have few issues. And have certainly helped the at risk groups.

However it is an entirely reasonable position to say...wait until we have studied it longer before we mandate people to take it.

Or is that somehow an anti vax or conspiratorial position to take?

The other hole is we don't know what impact on people who have had COVID before and whether they need the full dosage, just a booster, or are good to go for at least x amount of time.

 

[watfly]

It isn't hard to research.

There has never been an rMNA vaccine used anywhere in the world prior to covid. There has been some studies on them. All phase 1 studies.

There has not been any long term studies on them.

So for instance one might ask if kids under 17 have no risk of covid, why mandate them to get vaccines until long term studies have been completed...right?

Here is an overview of the rMNA. Talking about how it is new and talking about a few trails that got to stage 1.

Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?

A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics

www.medpagetoday.com

Here is the CDC letting us know it is new.

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.

www.cdc.gov

By they way when you talk anonymous, anti vaxx...I ask again...

What part of not knowing the long term affects of the vaccines do you disagree with? That is a reasonable question. That is not arguing DONT take it. But none the less. By definition on the covid vaccines there are no long term studies done on them. There cannot be since we are still in the short term.

We don't know for example....
Should pregnant women take it?
Should young children?
What about someone with X condition?
How does it react with medications people are taking for other health issues?

There are a whole host of unknowns.

Nobody knows.

That isn't an argument for NOT taking it by the way.

In the short term they have shown to have few issues. And have certainly helped the at risk groups.

However it is an entirely reasonable position to say...wait until we have studied it longer before we mandate people to take it.

Or is that somehow an anti vax or conspiratorial position to take?

You're either 100% pro-vaccine, including mandates, or you're an anti-vaxxer. Asking questions makes you an anti-vaxxer. Those apparently are the only two boxes available.

Honest question. With previous vaccinations that have been mandated (I believe just for educational settings), how long after the vaccine was developed was it mandated? Was it only a matter of months?

 

[dad4]

No but it can lead to a staffing shortage. Never said anything about a mass exodus. Just as there is no longer a massive or overwhelming delay in surgeries due to Covid UCI occupancy. They are both more the exception than the rule.

Can’t lead to a staffing shortage larger than 0.6%. That was the upper bound.

How are you estimating the impact of ICU occupancy? Any numbers behind it?