My position is that masks and 16+ vaccination were enough to achieve R<1, for Delta.
Zero? No. Just low level endemic. But low level endemic is far better than 200K additional deaths.
Vaccine
- Thread starter Multi Sport
- Start date
Zero? No. Just low level endemic. But low level endemic is far better than 200K additional deaths.
In what time interval would 200k less additional deaths be achieved? ‘Cause it sounds like an arbitrary number given your data inputs…
Ontario schools pushed back
globalnews.ca
Ontario pushes back start of school to Jan. 5, introduces more capacity limits amid COVID-19 surge | Globalnews.ca
The Ontario government says students and staff will return to school for in-person learning on Jan. 5, 2022, and is introducing further capacity limits to large indoor venues.
globalnews.ca
It is roughly the number of fatal covid cases during the Delta wave.
Almost all were preventable.
Give me an annual Flu death rate for 2016 they 2018…
Flu is 10 to 50k per 12 months, depending on the year.
Covid has been a bit more than ten times that. About 400k per year. Enough to worry about, in my book.
I think it will fall after Omicron, but what do I know? Maybe Crush is right and it's just the Kool Aid talking.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
All highway deaths are preventable - don't drive. Almost all drownings are preventable - don't swim. All COVID deaths are LESS "preventable" than the flu and we have many flu deaths each year. Your mind is in Fantasy Land.
Let’s agree to keep the comparison to Omicron as we need to live in the present as the past is beyond our control.
Have you looked into the advertising dollars Pfizer spends with USNEWS?
You don't get to ignore the past just because it is inconvenient to think about.
The lockdown proponents earned a reputation by closing schools and parks. They don't get to say "all over now. Forget about it.".
The anti-vax agitators earned their reputation, too. By preventing herd immunity last summer, the anti-vax folks are responsible for about 200,000 deaths from Delta.
In both cases, it's fair to bring up the past. It matters, and we need to learn from it.
Desert Hound
DA
The lockdown proponents of which you were one and still are somewhat were completely off base. Disrupted the lives of millions of kids just for starters.
You and what you advocated decimated business, harmed the fortunes of families who couldnt work, have caused inflation that hurts the poor and middle class, etc.
If someone choses not to get vaxxed and dies, that choice is theirs.
Rather big difference.
I object here. You have no evidence that vaccination+ masks would have avoided a delta spike. Your Asian countries that you cite, except for China but including South Korea, all had a delta spike but lower deaths for a reason we still don’t understand (despite some countries not having a high vaxx rate). European countries with high vaxx plus mask same thing (you just turn it around and say the vaxx rate is not high enough)! Martha’s Vineyard which you were so sure had high herd immunity spiked. Vermont no masks but massive spike. You are basically down to the blue check cities of Seattle and the Bay Area which didn’t spike until now (but then Los Angeles didn’t spike until now either when the weather began to turn cold)
the objections are:
A. You have no proof masks plus vaccines would create herd immunity
B. Even if you did it’s based on a mistaken fallacy you could get to some absurdly high percentage like 98% which requires almost complete vaccination of cHildren
C. That it would have prevented every single death instead of just blunted the deaths a little more but we still would have gotten a spike (see Asia)
D. With the west directing it’s shots towards boosters and reserving a portion in case we need 4th round, that an omicron mutation would have been stopped in South Africa where the virus was freely circulated (which I specifically said would happen and even called out it would happen in Africa or India).
Desert Hound
DA
As do most of us.
He tosses around that 200k number as if it is fact.
He conveniently ignores that delta was everywhere around the world.
Desert Hound
DA
By the way...I may have to apologize to dad.
There may be a way to effectively get people to socially distance.
There may be a way to effectively get people to socially distance.
Desert Hound
DA
Note that they are still wondering about the vaxxes.
Which is why they shouldn't mandate them.
The US, the UK and other major economies could be on the brink of over-vaccinating people in the fight against Covid, experts say.
--
But scientists argue that rolling out vaccines every three-to-four months simply isn't 'doable' and may not even be necessary because of Omicron, which some believe will speed up the process of endemicity and consign days of sky-high hospitalization and death figures to history.
And they called for more data on dosing gaps between boosters before pressing ahead with plans to administer fourth jabs. Some experts claim the benefits of extra jabs are minimal because their primary purpose - preventing deaths and hospitalizations - has barely waned after a year and several Covid variants, effectively meaning boosters are adding to an already high base level immunity.
Professor Ian Jones, a virologist at the University of Reading, said descriptions of Omicron being a 'natural vaccine' were right.
The logic behind the argument is that as Omicron is highly transmissible but milder than other variants, it can give an immunity boost without causing as much serious illness, with some data suggesting a combination of infection than vaccination providing the best type of immunity in the long-run.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Which is why they shouldn't mandate them.
The US, the UK and other major economies could be on the brink of over-vaccinating people in the fight against Covid, experts say.
--
But scientists argue that rolling out vaccines every three-to-four months simply isn't 'doable' and may not even be necessary because of Omicron, which some believe will speed up the process of endemicity and consign days of sky-high hospitalization and death figures to history.
And they called for more data on dosing gaps between boosters before pressing ahead with plans to administer fourth jabs. Some experts claim the benefits of extra jabs are minimal because their primary purpose - preventing deaths and hospitalizations - has barely waned after a year and several Covid variants, effectively meaning boosters are adding to an already high base level immunity.
Professor Ian Jones, a virologist at the University of Reading, said descriptions of Omicron being a 'natural vaccine' were right.
The logic behind the argument is that as Omicron is highly transmissible but milder than other variants, it can give an immunity boost without causing as much serious illness, with some data suggesting a combination of infection than vaccination providing the best type of immunity in the long-run.
Experts warn dishing out fourth jabs in spring may be pointless
EXCLUSIVE: Experts have warned against offer a second Covid booster arguing it is not practical to do so every three months. Claims of Omicron as a 'natural vaccine' are debatable experts say.
Of course you object.
You want to believe that everything bad from covid was a foregone conclusion. No need for each person to do their part if it's all predetermined.
I am tearing a giant hole in that fiction.
I didn't expect you to like it. But it is still true. The transmission reduction from masks and vaccination is well documented, and is large enough that we could have achieved herd immunity against Delta.
So what your saying is the dispensaries in your neighborhood deliver.
