Vaccine

[whatithink]

Admittedly weird, I was being hyperbolic.

The measles vaccine is incredibly more effective than the Covid vaccine and the measles vaccine wasn't mandated for school children until years after it was developed. Same for the Polio vaccine.

Where the measles vaccine was implemented in the 60"s it was effective in very short order. It was proposed to be eliminated by 1982, but was not declared eliminated by US health authorities until 2000.

I'm not comparing effectiveness of the vaccines, as obviously they are for completely different things and not comparable. It's always struck me that the COVID "vaccines" should not have been called "vaccines", but rather COVID "shots", aka the flu shot. They are directly comparable and nobody expects the flu shot to be a cure all. Labelling them as "vaccines" has made people think they should be 100% effective, which they never were (& never claimed to be).

Someone should have engaged some (modern) marketing people who could have explained to them that people nowadays expect instant everything, including an instant fix to a pandemic, and if that doesn't happen then they get very upset.

 

[dad4]

So because the Covid vaccine is far less effective we have to mandate? That makes zero sense. But yes because it is less effective our government is forcing, coercing and bribing people to get it because the vaccine isn't good enough to speak for itself. That's the point that Team Virus is trying to make with regards to the propriety of the mandates.

A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not. A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status. No reason for a mandate in that case.

A less effective vaccine means that individual immunity is not enough. The real protection comes from herd immunity: each person partly relying on his neighbors’ immunity. The mandate becomes more appealing.

Don’t confuse “less effective” with “not good enough”. Smallpox was eradicated by using a less effective vaccine, with mandates.

 

[dad4]

I don't, I was being facetious. We've heard the two week timetable for lagging indicators since this whole thing started. It's become a cry wolf scenario. SA is well into it's Omicron wave. It's likely Omicron has been circulating for sometime. Fingers crossed that it remains on its current trend.
Unfortunately governments can't let a manufactured emergency go to waste. We should certainly keep an eye on this but reaction has been interesting to say the least.

“cry wolf?”

You have 800,000 people dead in the US and an estimated 15 million dead worldwide.

How many people have to die before you can admit that there is really a wolf?

Are you waiting for an even million in the US? Or are you waiting for the international estimate to hit 20 million?

 

[watfly]

I'm not comparing effectiveness of the vaccines, as obviously they are for completely different things and not comparable. It's always struck me that the COVID "vaccines" should not have been called "vaccines", but rather COVID "shots", aka the flu shot. They are directly comparable and nobody expects the flu shot to be a cure all. Labelling them as "vaccines" has made people think they should be 100% effective, which they never were (& never claimed to be).

Someone should have engaged some (modern) marketing people who could have explained to them that people nowadays expect instant everything, including an instant fix to a pandemic, and if that doesn't happen then they get very upset.

Agreed. While maybe not advertised as 100% effective, they were unquestionably oversold as prevention of infection. The initial message from leadership was clearly you could ditch the mask if you get vaccinated. I appreciate that things change, but it wasn't the general public's fault that the "vaccination" wasn't understood. What are we going to be oversold next by our government? Are masks already there? A lots comes down to credibility and our government continues to lose it during the pandemic. Which leads more people to demand personal choice.

Fully vaccinated? You can ditch the mask, CDC says

"We have all longed for this moment," said the CDC's director, Dr. Rochelle Walensky.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[baldref]

La Mesans don't intermingle with El Cajonians, actually no one intermingles with El Cajonians.

So based on your position you would be in favor of a mandate for the HPV vaccine? It's over 99% effective and would eliminate 70% of cervical cancer. The Covid vaccine doesn't come anywhere close to that effectiveness.

east county FTW!

 

[watfly]

A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not. A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status. No reason for a mandate in that case.

A less effective vaccine means that individual immunity is not enough. The real protection comes from herd immunity: each person partly relying on his neighbors’ immunity. The mandate becomes more appealing.

Don’t confuse “less effective” with “not good enough”. Smallpox was eradicated by using a less effective vaccine, with mandates.

That's a reasonable argument; however, the vaccine is just not working that way even if mandated.

 

[watfly]

east county FTW!

Truth be told my mailing address is El Cajon, but I live in unincorporated San Diego County. The sign on my street says "Welcome to the Community of Mt. Helix". So I go with Mt Helix, ha ha.

 

[baldref]

Truth be told my mailing address is El Cajon, but I live in unincorporated San Diego County. The sign on my street says "Welcome to the Community of Mt. Helix". So I go with Mt Helix, ha ha.

I am also unincorporated. in the late 70s, I dated spring valley sally

 

[dad4]

Wow some colleagues of mine (triple vaxxed) have just come down with a suspected COVID case at a wedding they attended with mass breakthroughs (they are over 30 people now....almost everyone there vaccinated and boosted and except for a meal masked....suspecting omicron). The colleague I talked to thought it was allergies at first but has taken a turn for the worse. I have a bad feeling about January in California....schools will be effectively shut down with mass quarantines due to exposure, lots of business will have to temporarily shutter due to mass people getting sick.

Not just CA. Nationwide for mid January. We are estimated at about 3500 daily omicron cases, doubling twice per week. That trend hits 4 million daily around Jan 20. Something will change before then, but it gives you a sense of timing.

Previous waves slowed down as the recovered population got larger. With the faster growth rate, there are not many recovered people to slow it down. The current trend hits 4 million daily before it hits 20 million total infected. That’s not enough to be much of a speed bump.

The more I think about it, the less I like the odds on that Jan 15 end date for masks.

 

[Brav520]

Not just CA. Nationwide for mid January. We are estimated at about 3500 daily omicron cases, doubling twice per week. That trend hits 4 million daily around Jan 20. Something will change before then, but it gives you a sense of timing.

Previous waves slowed down as the recovered population got larger. With the faster growth rate, there are not many recovered people to slow it down. The current trend hits 4 million daily before it hits 20 million total infected. That’s not enough to be much of a speed bump.

The more I think about it, the less I like the odds on that Jan 15 end date for masks.

do mask mandates work?

 

[crush]

100% vaccination of who for what? Smarty pants.

Of all people on this forum, you are the one that is in need of some sort of powerful being in the sky. How you get there is on you. There are powerful plants that can help you on your journey that don't need prescriptions. If you want to go the prescribed route, there are options. I promise you will feel better about yourself and how you relate to others. The first step is acceptance, gets easier from there.

This is gr8t bro. I heard of this amazing medicine man that uses the earth and it's plants and herbs to help one go deep. I think it's time for GG to go down the Rabbit Hole. PM me GG and I can have you two meet up for deep shamanic time

 

[dad4]

do mask mandates work?

Masks work if you wear them.

If people in your area follow the rules, the mask mandate works. People see the mandate, and change their behavior. The changes happen even in places where the mandate does not apply. The dinner party becomes a backyard barbecue, because the hosts want their guests to feel comfortable.

If you live near people who look for every possible loophole, don’t expect much from the mandate. People will work around it. Dinner at a restaurant becomes an indoor dinner party at someone’s house. No benefit.

 

[whatithink]

Agreed. While maybe not advertised as 100% effective, they were unquestionably oversold as prevention of infection. The initial message from leadership was clearly you could ditch the mask if you get vaccinated. I appreciate that things change, but it wasn't the general public's fault that the "vaccination" wasn't understood. What are we going to be oversold next by our government? Are masks already there? A lots comes down to credibility and our government continues to lose it during the pandemic. Which leads more people to demand personal choice.

Fully vaccinated? You can ditch the mask, CDC says

"We have all longed for this moment," said the CDC's director, Dr. Rochelle Walensky.

www.nbcnews.com

The problem, as I see it, is that people expect the "government" to have the answer, or health experts I suppose in this instance, and for that answer to be absolute. The issue is that health experts don't have an absolute answer, just a well informed opinion, based on their expertise and the information to hand, at that point in time. If the information changes, then the answer / opinion may change, or not. A new variant, such as omicron means new information, but even that takes time to collate - but nobody wants to give them that time, rather they want an answer now ... and they really want that answer to be the one they agree with.

I'm pretty sure governments all over the world are well and truly done with this, and would like nothing better than for it to be gone or normalized. Governments (democratic ones at least) are not generally in favor of continually implementing unpopular policies again and again.

WRT the vaccines, none were sold as 100% effective. I understood that, it was literally talked about and printed non-stop. With delta, the first Q was would the existing vaccines be effective and the answer was yes, but not as much. We then learned that they were probably less effective than that BUT that they were 6+ more effective than none to prevent hospitalization, reduced infection time by half or more and 11+ times more effective (if hospitalized) in preventing death - so better to have than not. The jury is out on omicron, but we'll know more each day as more information gets collected. The news so far is positive in that more contagious but less serious, from what I can tell.

Omicron is also the 13th major mutation, afaik, given the major mutations are given a Greek number (and they skipped nu & xi), so good thing that its not every major mutation that's causing major angst.

 

[Grace T.]

Masks work if you wear them.

If people in your area follow the rules, the mask mandate works. People see the mandate, and change their behavior. The changes happen even in places where the mandate does not apply. The dinner party becomes a backyard barbecue, because the hosts want their guests to feel comfortable.

If you live near people who look for every possible loophole, don’t expect much from the mandate. People will work around it. Dinner at a restaurant becomes an indoor dinner party at someone’s house. No benefit.

Again, "change their behavior" is not a policy prescription. It's preaching for people to do better (preaching BTW rarely in history has won over everyone....mass conversions have typically occurred through force and coercion).

We have kind of a back way admission from you here that mask mandates at least don't work. I'll take it.

 

[Grace T.]

Not just CA. Nationwide for mid January. We are estimated at about 3500 daily omicron cases, doubling twice per week. That trend hits 4 million daily around Jan 20. Something will change before then, but it gives you a sense of timing.

Previous waves slowed down as the recovered population got larger. With the faster growth rate, there are not many recovered people to slow it down. The current trend hits 4 million daily before it hits 20 million total infected. That’s not enough to be much of a speed bump.

The more I think about it, the less I like the odds on that Jan 15 end date for masks.

The red states don't care. They'll have some labor problems caused by kids having to be out of school and businesses too sick to shut down. The damage in the south might be limited by seasonality (south africa, which is out of season, may already be in decline based on early results from hard hit provinces). They are treating it like a bad cold.

The blue states are in for a world of hurt though, and that's the protocols doing that (school/work), not just the virus.

 

[Grace T.]

A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not. A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status. No reason for a mandate in that case.

A less effective vaccine means that individual immunity is not enough. The real protection comes from herd immunity: each person partly relying on his neighbors’ immunity. The mandate becomes more appealing.

Don’t confuse “less effective” with “not good enough”. Smallpox was eradicated by using a less effective vaccine, with mandates.

Hey here's a question for you on this. So would you support a flu shot vaccine mandate? Yeah, I know, the flu shot can be notoriously bad (but the COVID vaccine seems to be as well for omicron, and like the COVID shot, the main benefit of the flu shot seems to be priming your system to get a less serious case). But given kids can get seriously sick and die from the flu, isn't it logical to extend the issue to the flu shot, particularly in a bad flu season. After all, think of the children?

 

[Grace T.]

Some colleges (including 100% vaxxed Cornell) are moving to all remote. Since it's exam season, it's mostly exams being moved. There is no offramp.

Princeton, Cornell, Others Urge Students to Head Home Because of Covid-19 Outbreaks

Several colleges and universities have shifted to remote exams as the Omicron variant spreads in the U.S.

www.wsj.com

 

[watfly]

The problem, as I see it, is that people expect the "government" to have the answer, or health experts I suppose in this instance, and for that answer to be absolute. The issue is that health experts don't have an absolute answer, just a well informed opinion, based on their expertise and the information to hand, at that point in time. If the information changes, then the answer / opinion may change, or not. A new variant, such as omicron means new information, but even that takes time to collate - but nobody wants to give them that time, rather they want an answer now ... and they really want that answer to be the one they agree with.

I'm pretty sure governments all over the world are well and truly done with this, and would like nothing better than for it to be gone or normalized. Governments (democratic ones at least) are not generally in favor of continually implementing unpopular policies again and again.

WRT the vaccines, none were sold as 100% effective. I understood that, it was literally talked about and printed non-stop. With delta, the first Q was would the existing vaccines be effective and the answer was yes, but not as much. We then learned that they were probably less effective than that BUT that they were 6+ more effective than none to prevent hospitalization, reduced infection time by half or more and 11+ times more effective (if hospitalized) in preventing death - so better to have than not. The jury is out on omicron, but we'll know more each day as more information gets collected. The news so far is positive in that more contagious but less serious, from what I can tell.

Omicron is also the 13th major mutation, afaik, given the major mutations are given a Greek number (and they skipped nu & xi), so good thing that its not every major mutation that's causing major angst.

I understand your points, but your explanation is Exhibit A as to why they shouldn't be mandated. Hoping they will work is not a compelling reason to mandate them. We were explicitly told that they would eliminate the need to wear masks and along with being told that breakthrough infections would be rare. If you are saying I should have known better, then the government should as well and they knowingly misrepresented the truth to coerce people to get the vaccine.

I didn't get the vaccine for the sole reason that I wouldn't have to wear a mask, I did it as one measure of personal protection. However, many others felt duped and are legitimately questioning whether they need a booster if they still have to wear a mask, particularly if their healthy and have no other health conditions. Like a mentioned before it comes down to credibility. Your saying to some extent that we should know better than to trust our government. I certainly think we should be skeptical of our government.

 

[Grace T.]

Good news, bad news here. The Pfizer pill works remarkably well even against the omicron. The problem is that there's not going to be enough of it to go around. There's also not a lot that we can do to triage this thing....you can't give it just to the extremely ill because by then it's too late....they'll probably wind up having to ration it to the elderly. Which means unless someone can figure out a way to increase 10m doses, (I'm not holding my breath....if anything the pandemic has illustrated the incompetence of everything), it's not the silver bullet we hoped.

Pfizer’s Covid Pill Works Well, Company Confirms in Final Analysis (Published 2021)

The treatment, called Paxlovid, is likely to work against Omicron and could be available in the United States before the end of the year.

www.nytimes.com

 

[dad4]

Again, "change their behavior" is not a policy prescription. It's preaching for people to do better (preaching BTW rarely in history has won over everyone....mass conversions have typically occurred through force and coercion).

We have kind of a back way admission from you here that mask mandates at least don't work. I'll take it.

Intelligence is reasonably defined as the ability to change behavior in the face of new evidence.

Changing your own behavior is just part of being a thinking creature. You should be able to manage it without someone passing a law and threatening you with jail time.