Vaccine

[Grace T.]

“Security theater“ is a rhetorical device for claiming something doesn’t help, without actually having to bother providing any evidence for your claim.

The evidence, from the studies you have referenced, is that cloth masks prevent an infected person from breathing covid directly into the face of an uninfected person. That is hygiene, not theater.

Do you have a logical objection to running a school with good ventilation and cloth masks? The classroom HEPA filter prevents aerosol buildup, and the mask prevents direct person to person infection. Much better than putting N95 masks on kids, and less community spread than going totally mask free.

So you are down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person". that's your standard now? Wow, look at how far we've come. From masks are better than vaccines to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".

You know, as well, that Spain, France, Italy and (on public transportation) Germany don't allow cloth masks? You know as well that none of these countries require masking of young children?

As usual, it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis. The benefit of cloth masks is very small. Again, we're down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person". The costs, particularly when it comes to kids, are high, and on top of that we have an alternative from the study (which is better ventilation). In places were better ventilation isn't a possibility, we need to have a serious discussion of what we need to do as a society. But we can't have that discussion until you realize that cloth masks are the equivalent of a bandaid on the problem, and a clear explanation for why the real world results (again see Hawaii, Israel, Iceland), don't match your preferred theories.

 

[Yours in futbol]

Checking in to see the mask debate is still ongoing.

Has anyone provided any studies showing how many children have died so far from having to wear masks at school since the onset of COVID, or became critically ill as a result of wearing masks and needed to be hospitalized?

Don't feel like reading all the threads, but would like to weigh that against the numbers we've seen for Delta deaths/hospitalizations.

 

[watfly]

Checking in to see the mask debate is still ongoing.

Has anyone provided any studies showing how many children have died so far from having to wear masks at school since the onset of COVID, or became critically ill as a result of wearing masks and needed to be hospitalized?

Don't feel like reading all the threads, but would like to weigh that against the numbers we've seen for Delta deaths/hospitalizations.

Exhibit A for Strawman argument.

 

[what-happened]

Checking in to see the mask debate is still ongoing.

Has anyone provided any studies showing how many children have died so far from having to wear masks at school since the onset of COVID, or became critically ill as a result of wearing masks and needed to be hospitalized?

Don't feel like reading all the threads, but would like to weigh that against the numbers we've seen for Delta deaths/hospitalizations.

So I guess your position is to mask kids. Let's hear why.....

 

[Yours in futbol]

So I guess your position is to mask kids. Let's hear why.....

Exhibit A for Strawman argument.

It's a question. Not an argument.

Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?

If so, how many.

Just say no if that's the case.

 

[dad4]

So you are down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person". that's your standard now? Wow, look at how far we've come. From masks are better than vaccines to "directly into the face of an uninfected person".

You know, as well, that Spain, France, Italy and (on public transportation) Germany don't allow cloth masks? You know as well that none of these countries require masking of young children?

As usual, it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis. The benefit of cloth masks is very small. Again, we're down to "directly into the face of an uninfected person". The costs, particularly when it comes to kids, are high, and on top of that we have an alternative from the study (which is better ventilation). In places were better ventilation isn't a possibility, we need to have a serious discussion of what we need to do as a society. But we can't have that discussion until you realize that cloth masks are the equivalent of a bandaid on the problem, and a clear explanation for why the real world results (again see Hawaii, Israel, Iceland), don't match your preferred theories.

“How far we’ve come“? Well, yes. I read the studies from places like MIT and Waterloo, and change my opinion based on current research.

You read over the exact same studies. I assume you see the part where they note that masks cause a 70-80% reduction in transmission. Yet you persist in making the exact same claim as you made before you read the study.

It’s as though you see the study as nothing more than an opportunity to prove that your previous opinion was correct.

 

[what-happened]

I always trust those on the front line over those in the lab.

Plenty of data coming from front line health care professionals from all over the world. Most Americans get their news/info via a carefully curated filter. Most receive their medical information from people who are not medical professionals, haven't practiced in forever (great writers though), or who are tied to Pharma companies in some form or fashion. There is a reason why Big pharma likes to make it's home in the US. It's easier to make money here.

 

[watfly]

It's a question. Not an argument.

Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?

If so, how many.

Just say no if that's the case.

In San Diego, it appears it is at least no lower than than those that have died from Covid...zero.

 

[what-happened]

It's a question. Not an argument.

Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?

If so, how many.

Just say no if that's the case.

No. But plenty of evidence on evidence on what masking does to kids. Do you have small kids with learning disabilities by chance?

 

[Grace T.]

“How far we’ve come“? Well, yes. I read the studies from places like MIT and Waterloo, and change my opinion based on current research.

You read over the exact same studies. I assume you see the part where they note that masks cause a 70-80% reduction in transmission. Yet you persist in making the exact same claim as you made before you read the study.

It’s as though you see the study as nothing more than an opportunity to prove that your previous opinion was correct.

My previous opinion was correct. Not only correct but bullseye. Cloth mask cause a 10% reduction in transmitted particles and they recommend higher quality masks. IF we are going to do masking, we should do effective masking. Since high quality masking isn't feasible in all situations, we should look to the cost/benefit analysis for each situations.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

I always trust those on the front line over those in the lab.

Those are different silos. The front line is not immune to issues with trust.

 

[watfly]

Those are different silos. The front line is not immune to issues with trust.

Understood, but between the two I'm going to lean towards the real world experience. Regardless, I'm a trust but verify type of person, until you lose my trust.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Understood, but between the two I'm going to lean towards the real world experience. Regardless, I'm a trust but verify type of person, until you lose my trust.

I figured that is what you meant but the front lines is where Cuomo was able to manipulate LTC facilities in to accepting less sick COVID folks that infected high risk elderly folks.

 

[dad4]

My previous opinion was correct. Not only correct but bullseye. Cloth mask cause a 10% reduction in transmitted particles and they recommend higher quality masks. IF we are going to do masking, we should do effective masking. Since high quality masking isn't feasible in all situations, we should look to the cost/benefit analysis for each situations.

You are still completely ignoring the respiratory plume. For well ventilated areas, the plume is by far the largest risk. For poorly ventilated areas, the plume is still a very large fraction of the risk.

Put another way, you were correct, except for the part where you were wrong. You believe a 70% reduction is really a 10% reduction, and this is possible because you are ignoring the pathway for over half of transmission events.

 

[what-happened]

I figured that is what you meant but the front lines is where Cuomo was able to manipulate LTC facilities in to accepting less sick COVID folks that infected high risk elderly folks.

I get what you are saying and big corporate health care systems are more easily manipulated by people like Cuomo.

I'm looking a bit further offshore, where front line workers are treating populations in Africa, India, and other places where there is less corporate medicine influence. Interesting stuff coming out of there. There are sophisticated people doing great work treating these populations. That's not being dismissed by many in Europe and across the Pond. "first, do no harm" is a real thing and there are different approaches in how this is executed.

 

[Desert Hound]

It's a question. Not an argument.

Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?

If so, how many.

Just say no if that's the case.

A better question is...

If in a population of 72 million there have only been 350 or so deaths, why are we even considering masks?

Based on that stat, there is no risk to them. So one wonders why the concern? Why the rush to mask them up when the data shows they have no risk.

That is the real question.

 

[espola]

No. But plenty of evidence on evidence on what masking does to kids. Do you have small kids with learning disabilities by chance?

What evidence on evidence is that?

 

[what-happened]

What evidence on evidence is that?

Go find a parent with a child with a speech impediment. Let me know how that works out for you..

 

[what-happened]

A better question is...

If in a population of 72 million there have only been 350 or so deaths, why are we even considering masks?

Based on that stat, there is no risk to them. So one wonders why the concern? Why the rush to mask them up when the data shows they have no risk.

That is the real question.

setting the stage. Masks look scary which leads to mandatory vaccination of an extremely low risk population with a vaccine with zero long term studies. Sounds ethical right?

Once a vaccine is approved, we'll get the constant barrage of uncomfortably weird ads on TV guilting parents into vaccinating their kids under 12.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

I always trust those on the front line over those in the lab.

Those are different silos. The front line is not immune to issues with trust.

It's a question. Not an argument.

Is there any evidence that a single child has either died or been hospitalized as a result from wearing a mask since the onset of COVID?

If so, how many.

Just say no if that's the case.

No. They do remind me of assasins creed. Makes me wonder why they wear them at all.

 

[Grace T.]

You are still completely ignoring the respiratory plume. For well ventilated areas, the plume is by far the largest risk. For poorly ventilated areas, the plume is still a very large fraction of the risk.

Put another way, you were correct, except for the part where you were wrong. You believe a 70% reduction is really a 10% reduction, and this is possible because you are ignoring the pathway for over half of transmission events.

I would have said for the prime you were correct about that. It is why I was o.k. with a cloth mask indoor mandate at first. For the Delta, we are seeing that's just not the case. The viral loads are high enough that a 10% reduction in particles, 50% reduction through cloth masks directly, redirection of the plum in a not well ventilated area just isn't going to do it. You are going to get enough to get sick. If you really want masks as a solution, you've got to get in line with Europe which has said these things aren't very much help.

As for half of transmission events, errr people aren't wearing them close talking with their friends outdoors, people aren't wearing them at home with ill relatives, people aren't wearing them when they go over to their friends houses, and they aren't doing a whole lot of good taking them off when you sit down at a table to eat.

The discussion should be centered on either high quality mask mandates in certain situations (such as for example airplanes and buses) or we don't do them because they aren't working as well anymore and the benefit we are getting for cost is miniscule. Like I said in my anecdote, that little girl walking into the outdoor restaurant tent, wearing a mask with gapping holes on the side larger than 3cm, isn't helping her or anyone else in the restaurant and certainly isn't helping anyone around her in the classroom. Theater.