Vaccine

[watfly]

I don't know if vaccines were necessarily oversold, it seems Delta may have put the wrench into things like W-H states. Were the scientific experts not forthright about the possibility of breakthrough infections to this extent? or did it come as a surprise to them as well? The vaccine works pretty well, not well enough to be mandated and in light of other options, but an incredible accomplishment given the speed at which it was developed. Based on the current evidence it doesn't work as well as immunity from previous infection, but it's clearly not sound medical advice to take the Amish approach and intentionally get infected.

What has been oversold is the fact that we can or that we should try to eliminate the virus entirely, instead of finding ways to live with it. It didn't start that way, remember it was just about flattening the curve, but it evolved into elimination of the virus. Repeatedly we were told if you just do this, then the virus will be gone, or you will be protected and can we can return to normal. The stick with the carrot kept getting longer and longer. In the meantime, businesses failed and employees were rewarded for not working. (I attended a webinar and the economist speaking said for every dollar of income lost the stimulus paid $3). Now we have serious inflation for everyday items and supply chain disruptions that are expected to last through next summer. Our children, particularly the underprivileged, have fallen months or possibly a couple years behind in their education because our leadership has chased a false premise that the virus can be eliminated. A virus that is threat to a very small and easily identifiable population.

I have no doubts that history will look at back at our response to the pandemic as "the cure was worse than the disease", particularly as to the impact to our children. Which the totality of those impacts are still years away from being determined.

 

[met61]

You sound as if you have little hope of a good outcome in the US. What's stopping you from going to a country with a lower ratio of idiots and money/power dispersed more equitably among corrupt individuals?

...look at the division in this one thread alone, now project that across the country. The politicians and power elites are keeping us at each other's throats...so we don't come after theirs...and just look how easy we make it for them, most are all too willing to oblige.

When was the last time anyone in government/power was held accountable for any of the massive failures and deaths?

 

[MacDre]

...how about one for the people and by the people, oh wait!

If you are not a descendant of the first settlers that received land grants, the whole “by the people and for the people” thing probably doesn’t apply to you.

 

[met61]

If you are not a descendant of the first settlers that received land grants, the whole “by the people and for the people” thing probably doesn’t apply to you.

Ah, the victim, I mean cop out thing again...you were given American citizenship and an opportunity, your choice what to do with it.

 

[whatithink]

...look at the division in this one thread alone, now project that across the country. The politicians and power elites are keeping us at each other's throats...so we don't come after theirs...and just look how easy we make it for them, most are all too willing to oblige.

When was the last time anyone in government/power was held accountable for any of the massive failures and deaths?

Why would the people in power create or support a system that would hold the people in power accountable when they abuse the power they have been given or the power they have decided to give themselves?

Politicians love culture wars because it causes people to vote based on emotive issues and not facts. It results in turkeys voting for Thanksgiving/Christmas.

 

[Grace T.]

Maybe it’s because most people are idiots.

The problem with this line of thinking is either: a) if people are idiots, why do we let them vote? Shouldn't only the educated elite then get to dictate policy and have a say, for the greater good and the good of the idiots, or perhaps you prefer the noble philosopher-king? Shouldn't there be a minimum an IQ test then to vote? or b) you accept that people are idiots and let them make their own choices: acknowledging that there are probably more than a few idiots that got to the top elites by knowing how to test well (even though they may lack practical and street smarts), through charisma, or by being super aggressive/dominant (none of those characteristics nor their money are enough to ensure they are not also idiots).

 

[Hüsker Dü]

The vaccine was certainly not sold as Hey get the shot ,but we aren't sure how effective it actually is at preventing you from catching or transmitting covid.

Anyone arguing otherwise, is Monday Morning Qb"ing

How do we know this, because when breakthrough cases actually started, there was general shock in the public and it was front page news.

Of course, our experts knew this. So, why are we continuing to not get the full truth from our health "experts"? Why do they treat us like children, that we somehow can't handle the truth ? And people wonder why the public continues to lose confidence in the people who are supposed to be the "experts".

So your issue is with the sales pitch?

 

[watfly]

...look at the division in this one thread alone, now project that across the country. The politicians and power elites are keeping us at each other's throats...so we don't come after theirs...and just look how easy we make it for them, most are all too willing to oblige.

When was the last time anyone in government/power was held accountable for any of the massive failures and deaths?

I don't really blame the government for the deaths so much (other than Coumo and Murphy's nursing home policy). They need to be held accountable for damage they've done to our small business economy, delay in other medical care and interruption to a children's education and well-being.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

I don't know if vaccines were necessarily oversold, it seems Delta may have put the wrench into things like W-H states. Were the scientific experts not forthright about the possibility of breakthrough infections to this extent? or did it come as a surprise to them as well? The vaccine works pretty well, not well enough to be mandated and in light of other options, but an incredible accomplishment given the speed at which it was developed. Based on the current evidence it doesn't work as well as immunity from previous infection, but it's clearly not sound medical advice to take the Amish approach and intentionally get infected.

What has been oversold is the fact that we can or that we should try to eliminate the virus entirely, instead of finding ways to live with it. It didn't start that way, remember it was just about flattening the curve, but it evolved into elimination of the virus. Repeatedly we were told if you just do this, then the virus will be gone, or you will be protected and can we can return to normal. The stick with the carrot kept getting longer and longer. In the meantime, businesses failed and employees were rewarded for not working. (I attended a webinar and the economist speaking said for every dollar of income lost the stimulus paid $3). Now we have serious inflation for everyday items and supply chain disruptions that are expected to last through next summer. Our children, particularly the underprivileged, have fallen months or possibly a couple years behind in their education because our leadership has chased a false premise that the virus can be eliminated. A virus that is threat to a very small and easily identifiable population.

I have no doubts that history will look at back at our response to the pandemic as "the cure was worse than the disease", particularly as to the impact to our children. Which the totality of those impacts are still years away from being determined.

I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents. Buck up and be a proper member of society like people have done for centuries. Why all of the sudden is their a select group of people who feel entitled to their own way of doing things that in many cases threatens the wellbeing of others?

 

[espola]

Great example of misinformation. They claimed 90% "efficacy" and the trials weren't even done. Wonder why they did that? Big difference between efficacy and effectiveness - you can look it up. It's likely that the FDA was going to approve safe vaccines above 50% efficacy.

Again, Big Pharma influencing and driving messaging. We really don't know how effective these vaccines are. We will eventually. For now studies will continue, decisions will be made, and more money will be made. In reality, vaccines aren't a big money driver, therapeutics are. But why miss an opportunity to get big federal dollars to develop, test, manufacture product that is considered life saving and essential. It's a no brainer.

Now you're just making things up. I thought you wanted an objective discussion. It appears that you just wanted an outlet for rants

 

[MacDre]

Ah, the victim, I mean cop out thing again...you were given American citizenship and an opportunity, your choice what to do with it.

You’re missing my point. My wife’s family for example were part of the French that received land grants in Northern Florida in and around Tallahassee. In the early 1900’s my wife’s great grandpa from Quincy, FL was able to invest $500 into Coca-Cola because he had so much land. Today, I believe Quincy has more millionaires per capita than any other place in the USA.

I see you’re still drinking the kool aide from your HS civics classes.

 

[N00B]

Now you're just making things up. I thought you wanted an objective discussion. It appears that you just wanted an outlet for rants

Still not answering those direct questions. I thought you wanted to contribute to the conversation.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

The problem with this line of thinking is either: a) if people are idiots, why do we let them vote? Shouldn't only the educated elite then get to dictate policy and have a say, for the greater good and the good of the idiots, or perhaps you prefer the noble philosopher-king? Shouldn't there be a minimum an IQ test then to vote? or b) you accept that people are idiots and let them make their own choices: acknowledging that there are probably more than a few idiots that got to the top elites by knowing how to test well (even though they may lack practical and street smarts), through charisma, or by being super aggressive/dominant (none of those characteristics nor their money are enough to ensure they are not also idiots).

Sounds like you are describing trump and his followers to a “T” (pun intended).

 

[N00B]

I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents.

That’s the job description for parents…. To make decisions and advocate for their children.

 

[met61]

1.Yep - happens in capitalism and democracy all the time. Maybe people will vote on principle as opposed to emotion next time.

2. Because rules for thee and not for me is an official US Government Policy Directive.

Voting is a thing.

Yeah that's the issue...because the massive dollars flowing between politicians, big tech, and media have no influence on human emotion and decision making.

Maybe check out documentaries like "Social Dilemma" or the many studies and experts sounding alarms regarding toxic digital effects...it might be a little more than just an individual's independent vote.

 

[watfly]

I have yet to hear a child complain, just their Karen and ken parents. Buck up and be a proper member of society like people have done for centuries. Why all of the sudden is their a select group of people who feel entitled to their own way of doing things that in many cases threatens the wellbeing of others?

Yeah my son loved the lockdown, he went fishing and skating everyday. Not sure how that will serve him educationally in the long run. Although have you seen how much money in sponsorships and tournament purses guys make on the pro bass fishing tour? Get lemons, make lemonade.

 

[MacDre]

The problem with this line of thinking is either: a) if people are idiots, why do we let them vote? Shouldn't only the educated elite then get to dictate policy and have a say, for the greater good and the good of the idiots, or perhaps you prefer the noble philosopher-king? Shouldn't there be a minimum an IQ test then to vote? or b) you accept that people are idiots and let them make their own choices: acknowledging that there are probably more than a few idiots that got to the top elites by knowing how to test well (even though they may lack practical and street smarts), through charisma, or by being super aggressive/dominant (none of those characteristics nor their money are enough to ensure they are not also idiots).

I think your analysis assumes that all are free to vote and that we have choice in who we vote for. The system is rigged.

What chance does the average person have at running for and winning an election?

 

[what-happened]

Now you're just making things up. I thought you wanted an objective discussion. It appears that you just wanted an outlet for rants

Listen Sugar Ray Leonard, you don't have a clue. It's public information. Your choice to ignore.

 

[what-happened]

Yeah that's the issue...because the massive dollars flowing between politicians, big tech, and media have no influence on human emotion and decision making.

Maybe check out documentaries like "Social Dilemma" or the many studies and experts sounding alarms regarding toxic digital effects...it might be a little more than just an individual's independent vote.

I don't disgree with anything you've stated, they are obvious factors in modern culture, especially in a country as free as ours. We may complain about the suppression of our individual freedoms but juxtapose with the rest of the world, and we are still the wild wild west.

There are places in Montana ,Wyoming and the Yukon where people can go to avoid politicians, big tech, and media. Or you can choose to live a sensible life, navigate the good and bad this country has to offer, and stick to your principles. This too shall pass. Brandon will eventually be replaced by someone else.

 

[MacDre]

Yeah my son loved the lockdown, he went fishing and skating everyday. Not sure how that will serve him educationally in the long run. Although have you seen how much money in sponsorships and tournament purses guys make on the pro bass fishing tour? Get lemons, make lemonade.

I think for your son, 1 year of constructivist learning by fishing and skating will be more beneficial because he’s had less of the government mandated brainwashing that occurs in most schools. All kids needs to learn from school is how to read, write, and count (3 R’s).