Vaccine

dad4 said:
NYT beat you to it.

The graph you showed is for the south. Other regions show a similar shape, except the right hand bulge is much smaller. They have about 1/3 to 1/2 as many cases, hospitalization, and deaths.

That’s because other places have a much better vaccination rate and have not blocked mask policies.

Add the west coast and northeast to your graph. It will look different.
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No. They don't. Nationally they peaked and dipped during the same time period regardless off how religiously the AISM preached max mask, max vax, min. healthy habits. But if you're trying to make the point that this is not a one size fits all event and that government has been as grossly negligent as they 've ever been during this endemic event and other interventions I might agree.
 
dad4 said:
I …… cannot……..stand………listening………to……….people……….who……….drag……..out………their………sentences……..to……..make……..it………seem…….as………though……….they………are………saying……….something………..more……..profound……..than……..they……….really……….are.

You realize that was nothing more than a 6 minute snipped of an introductory bio class, right?
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Well shoot, that made me click on it. I mean I'd cut slack on the presentation style. Most everybody suffers a hit when they have to adapt to the green screen/see through board technology for lectures/presentations. Several things for me. First, none of the four CVs she's talking about are SARS Cov-1 or MERS. The common cold CVs that are globally endemic are different but related to CoV-2, like both hamsters and guinea pigs are mammals. That's why the whole SARS appellation is appended to the other ones. Why do some of the recent outbreak CVs produce respiratory and then systemic hyperinflammation in susceptible people? We know some of the circuitry involved but not what triggers it. Second, when discussing virulence it's important to stress that the effective virulence of a pathogen once its endemic in a population can be different than its intrinsic virulence in an unexposed population. That's where I'd argue with her. We will undoubtably see that with Cov-2, and as I linked the other day, we probably already are. Third, reasonable to say herd immunity = endemic. But the thing is kinetics and path chosen. Through most history the answer has been fast as possible and can that involve some culling of the herd? Damn straight. Like I remember walking around when H5N1 came through and there were all these dead crows. Kind of ghastly. Now the crows are back and, well, they seem on average bigger. Like almost raven size. So when a new virus like CoV-2 emerges in as spectacular a fashion as it did the question is not whether it's going to become endemic or whether we're going to get to herd immunity viewed in that kind of steady state way. There's no avoiding it. The issue is to what extent can we manage or direct that process in a modern technocentric world. Part of its science but, certainly in US, also a clash of social values with those values being reflected through the (increasingly cracked and distorting) lens of politics. And the scientists divvy up along the value spectrum just like everybody else. Like the mask debate in the 1918 flu pandemic. Same issues, but in that case it was the socialists saying "masks bad" and the WW1 mobilized "patriots" organizing sewing circles to make them.
 
dad4 said:
You need Gupta’s painfully slow video.

Herd immunity does not imply a disease is no longer “still around”. That isn’t even close to true.
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Ahhhh Basic. Gupta got to you. Nothing wrong with her delivery speed if it helped you rediscover herd immunity.
 
EvilGoalie 21 said:
Well shoot, that made me click on it. I mean I'd cut slack on the presentation style. Most everybody suffers a hit when they have to adapt to the green screen/see through board technology for lectures/presentations. Several things for me. First, none of the four CVs she's talking about are SARS Cov-1 or MERS. The common cold CVs that are globally endemic are different but related to CoV-2, like both hamsters and guinea pigs are mammals. That's why the whole SARS appellation is appended to the other ones. Why do some of the recent outbreak CVs produce respiratory and then systemic hyperinflammation in susceptible people? We know some of the circuitry involved but not what triggers it. Second, when discussing virulence it's important to stress that the effective virulence of a pathogen once its endemic in a population can be different than its intrinsic virulence in an unexposed population. That's where I'd argue with her. We will undoubtably see that with Cov-2, and as I linked the other day, we probably already are. Third, reasonable to say herd immunity = endemic. But the thing is kinetics and path chosen. Through most history the answer has been fast as possible and can that involve some culling of the herd? Damn straight. Like I remember walking around when H5N1 came through and there were all these dead crows. Kind of ghastly. Now the crows are back and, well, they seem on average bigger. Like almost raven size. So when a new virus like CoV-2 emerges in as spectacular a fashion as it did the question is not whether it's going to become endemic or whether we're going to get to herd immunity viewed in that kind of steady state way. There's no avoiding it. The issue is to what extent can we manage or direct that process in a modern technocentric world. Part of its science but, certainly in US, also a clash of social values with those values being reflected through the (increasingly cracked and distorting) lens of politics. And the scientists divvy up along the value spectrum just like everybody else. Like the mask debate in the 1918 flu pandemic. Same issues, but in that case it was the socialists saying "masks bad" and the WW1 mobilized "patriots" organizing sewing circles to make them.
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Thank God for clean drinking water and sanitation systems.
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Thank God for clean drinking water and sanitation systems.
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Which circles us back to Calvin (theologian naughty kid struggling with fate, decision making and attendant anger issues) and Hobbes (bemused sort of "go ahead but I don't want to hear you complaining about it after you do it" philosopher with the stripy tail). Thank WHO? Sorry-that's bad but couldn't help it.
 
EvilGoalie 21 said:
Which circles us back to Calvin (theologian naughty kid struggling with fate, decision making and attendant anger issues) and Hobbes (bemused sort of "go ahead but I don't want to hear you complaining about it after you do it" philosopher with the stripy tail). Thank WHO? Sorry-that's bad but couldn't help it.
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Calvin and Hobbes are purposeful contradictions. Calvin is supposed to be a reflection of the theologian John Calvin but often falls into anger, anarchy, and recklessness. Hobbes is philosopher Hobbes who stood for order, but the tiger (quite contrary to his repeated desire to return to nature) often just turns into a nag and rather than reign in his charge often let's him run wild or even partakes in the wildness. Both the characters also create a world where the rules are made to be broken (e.g. Calvinball) and can turn deeply existential. The strip as a result of deeply ironical, and sometimes poorly misunderstood.
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Ahhhh Basic. Gupta got to you. Nothing wrong with her delivery speed if it helped you rediscover herd immunity.
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Herd immunity is not a new concept. I was aware of it.

Gupta completely ignores the question of how we get to herd immunity. It matters.

One path is to pretend nothing is wrong, and just make sure we have enough body bags. That would work.

We could also vaccinate the adults, then open up. That would work, too. Maybe with a little less collateral damage.
 
dad4 said:
Herd immunity is not a new concept. I was aware of it.

Gupta completely ignores the question of how we get to herd immunity. It matters.

One path is to pretend nothing is wrong, and just make sure we have enough body bags. That would work.

We could also vaccinate the adults, then open up. That would work, too. Maybe with a little less collateral damage.
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We have vaccinated the adults. The question now is whether we force the refusers to for their own good.

There's also a portion of the adults who (depending on the definition of "need") may not need vaccination because either: a) they've had it already, or b) they are young enough that their risk is negligible.

Then finally there's the separate question of whether we (the responsible ones that have been vaccinated, are very young, or have had it) need to wait for the irresponsible ones to "open up". Hint: the answer is no. The only conceivable rational is because some portion of the population (the vaccinated very old in which immunity does not take hold, the immunocompromised) is still vulnerable and then we'd need to know how many and what the off ramp is (an offramp which BTW you haven't been able to articulate).
 
Grace T. said:
Calvin and Hobbes are purposeful contradictions. Calvin is supposed to be a reflection of the theologian John Calvin but often falls into anger, anarchy, and recklessness. Hobbes is philosopher Hobbes who stood for order, but the tiger (quite contrary to his repeated desire to return to nature) often just turns into a nag and rather than reign in his charge often let's him run wild or even partakes in the wildness. Both the characters also create a world where the rules are made to be broken (e.g. Calvinball) and can turn deeply existential. The strip as a result of deeply ironical, and sometimes poorly misunderstood.
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Yep. Them's the dudes I'm talking about. Hobbes like Shrek 2 "You have free will, what you lack is the capacity to use it". Calvin like "Well same difference as God's will/fate then. Except all the screw ups get to be my fault. Damn it that makes me mad". Since you were a debater, here might be an interesting debate. Position 1. Organized sport is the antithesis of Calvinball. Position 2. Organized sport is the same as Calvinball. My son tried debate when he was in 7th grade. Did it exactly once. It was something of an epic fail. Not that he froze up. He just sort of derailed the thing. On the drive home I'm like little dude this is just like soccer. It's a competition, there are rules. But no, he went total Calvinball. And I could tell deep down inside that he was pleased with himself. Haven't thought about that in awhile.
 
EvilGoalie 21 said:
Yep. Them's the dudes I'm talking about. Hobbes like Shrek 2 "You have free will, what you lack is the capacity to use it". Calvin like "Well same difference as God's will/fate then. Except all the screw ups get to be my fault. Damn it that makes me mad". Since you were a debater, here might be an interesting debate. Position 1. Organized sport is the antithesis of Calvinball. Position 2. Organized sport is the same as Calvinball. My son tried debate when he was in 7th grade. Did it exactly once. It was something of an epic fail. Not that he froze up. He just sort of derailed the thing. On the drive home I'm like little dude this is just like soccer. It's a competition, there are rules. But no, he went total Calvinball. And I could tell deep down inside that he was pleased with himself. Haven't thought about that in awhile.
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That's funny. I agree with your dude about debate the rules, particular Oxford debate.

For example, neither position as to organized sports is correct. The correct position is there really isn't such a thing as an "organized" sport, which is the antithesis of Calvinball which is (by virtue of its two unbreakable rules) actually organized. The simpler the mechanism, the more organized it is....otherwise you are in a never ending quest to snap out glitches which are created by virtue of the fact humans are both flawed and clever.
 
Grace T. said:
That's funny. I agree with your dude about debate the rules, particular Oxford debate.

For example, neither position as to organized sports is correct. The correct position is there really isn't such a thing as an "organized" sport, which is the antithesis of Calvinball which is (by virtue of its two unbreakable rules) actually organized. The simpler the mechanism, the more organized it is....otherwise you are in a never ending quest to snap out glitches which are created by virtue of the fact humans are both flawed and clever.
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Well in that case I want my club dues back. Unless that's part of the game.
 
EvilGoalie 21 said:
Yep. Them's the dudes I'm talking about. Hobbes like Shrek 2 "You have free will, what you lack is the capacity to use it". Calvin like "Well same difference as God's will/fate then. Except all the screw ups get to be my fault. Damn it that makes me mad". Since you were a debater, here might be an interesting debate. Position 1. Organized sport is the antithesis of Calvinball. Position 2. Organized sport is the same as Calvinball. My son tried debate when he was in 7th grade. Did it exactly once. It was something of an epic fail. Not that he froze up. He just sort of derailed the thing. On the drive home I'm like little dude this is just like soccer. It's a competition, there are rules. But no, he went total Calvinball. And I could tell deep down inside that he was pleased with himself. Haven't thought about that in awhile.
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Competitive debate, unlike Calvinball, has rules. Back in my old-timey days, each club would prepare an argument for and an argument against a particular proposition (my first season it was "Should Congress pass the Medicare Bill?") and they wouldn't know which side they were arguing until the beginning of debate, when that would be decided by coin flip.
 
espola said:
Competitive debate, unlike Calvinball, has rules. Back in my old-timey days, each club would prepare an argument for and an argument against a particular proposition (my first season it was "Should Congress pass the Medicare Bill?") and they wouldn't know which side they were arguing until the beginning of debate, when that would be decided by coin flip.
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You sir are the biggest quitter on these boards. In fact, I have never ignored anyone and never will. Bring it on loser.......Big baby and cheater Espola is and ignore only those who kick his ass on SM debate skills. "I will super ignore you now." You suck at debate big cheater :(
 
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