Two girls fighting what is everyone's responsibility?

[Eagle33]

That can be the problem with the written word sometimes. I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended. It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend. From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct. The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop. To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit." It was heard by most of the players. The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off. The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players. I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids. The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal. I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.

Sounds like we need to implement Respect line, which is required now for for all youth games in England by FA for parents.

 

[ballme]

Sounds like we need to implement Respect line, which is required now for for all youth games in England by FA for parents.
View attachment 1372

The Respect line seems to be a good idea - according to this it resulted in a decline in verbal and physical bs toward refs: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...es-get-the-parents-they-deserve-a6900441.html

Daughter is in her 1st yr of club soccer and already seen some parental behavior that's worse than what I've seen at son's basketball games

 

[baldref]

This is where we differ - and I don't think we can start cleaning up the game until it is done in the younger age groups. Referees are not there to play counselor, they are not there to dictate the pace of the game and they are not there to teach kids the rules. They are there to apply the rules during the match, plain and simple.

A caution is not a tool, it is something given to a player that clearly violates the laws of the game for reasons clearly written in the laws of the game. As a matter of fact, a player on a caution is often times substituted at higher levels when the manager thinks that player is at risk of being sent off, thus putting the team at a disadvantage. When a caution is used strictly as a tool and not as a "one step closer to getting sent off", there is no point in giving it - especially if a referee takes into account that a player is already on a yellow when the next major offense takes place.

Soccer is the only sport I can think of that applies the laws of the game are applied differently based on what age kids are. In basketball a foul is a foul and when you receive 5 or 6 of them, you foul out of a game - other than maybe kindergartners, basketball players don't get an extra allotment of fouls when they are young. In baseball, a strike is a strike (to be fair, strike zone maybe a bit bigger for the little ones), a ball is a ball and an out is an out. In football, a clumsy, slow kid doesn't get to pull the face mask of an opponent just because he is slower and clumsier.

Again, I am very appreciative of the fact that you are out there refereeing games so our kids have a chance to play. However, it is worrisome to me that any referee would take "coordination" into consideration when applying the laws of the game. A late tackle is a late tackle, that endangers an opposing player no matter how "clumsy" a player is. The laws of the game clearly state what the punishment is for endangering an opponent.

Now, I do not want to come across as advocating sending off and cautioning every player age 5-18 the same way across the board, common sense does have to come into play - I think this is where you are trying to make your point. But we need to start somewhere, and that somewhere has to be with the younger players - but more so on the yellow card type of offenses. Sending offs should be the same throughout every age group.

Take the example of a player deliberately elbowing an opposing player in the ribs. If that player begins that type of behavior at 10 (God forbid 6,7,8) and only receives a caution or a stern talking to by the referee, that is not enough to cut that type of behavior out of her game. Once she gets away with only a caution the first time, then she knows she can get away with it again. As the years go by, she has now elbowed opponents 20 times and never has been sent off. Add to that, she is now getting older and a bit wiser, so she expands her arsenal to a little kick out here and there, the elbows now rise to head level, she has begun to pull some hair every now and again and she seems to get away with two footed tackles - when she gets to be 14-15, it is too late to change her mentality. Now, all of this could have been avoided if the referee had the gumption to send her off after that very first deliberate elbow to the ribs when she was 9. I could go on and on about this, but I think you can tell where I am going.

The other thing that bothers me is the fact that someone mentioned previously, you can tell how a kid is being raised by their behavior on the field. Once any kid walks across those white lines, they are no longer in their parents or coaches domain, they are in the referees domain and the players abide by the laws of the game in which the referee is applying or they get to go sit on the bench with the coach. The beauty of this sport is that everyone is treated the same inside the lines. Race, wealth, single parent, two parents, public school, private school, home school - none of it matters, they all play by the same rules during a match.

As for speaking with captains or coaches, it is bothersome that you as a referee has deemed the captains as "more of a figure head." It isn't the job of the referee to decide if a kid is a good enough leader to be a captain, it is the job of the referee to speak to the "captains" each team has designated before the game, during the game and even after the game if needed. If this is done at the first sign of a game getting out of hand, you are correct, there should be no need to ever bring the coaches into the conversation. A very simple chat with the captains such as "listen you two, get your teammates to cut the crap out immediately, or I will not hesitate to go to my back pocket" will go a lot further than you think. Furthermore, if/when you do have to send a player off, you now have the security of already having "warned" each team.

As you can tell, this is a hot button topic for me - and everyone wants the solution to be so complicated or ask referee's to become psychologists. For me it is simple, apply the laws the same way across age groups, from young to professional. When, and only when we begin to do this, we will begin to not only make our on the field product more enjoyable to watch, but we will also begin to develop better players.

once again, i disagree with much of what you think you know. it's a lot of armchair quarter back talk, and wishful thinking, and puppies and rainbows. but, as you say, i'm not changing your opinion, and you're not changing what i know from many years of experience, some of which was learned from lots of things i have done wrong over the years. i know how to do the job and what is expected from me, not by parents or coaches, but from people who have instructed me on how to handle situations, and like i said, from many years of experiencing these situations.

i referee the game for the players. the players, to some degree, dictate how the game gets called. i really don't care what their parents want or their coaches want, i care what they want.

 

[Deadpoolscores!]

Twelve year old girls come in a lot of sizes, one can be turning 13 on Jan. 2 in 2018 the other can be turning 12 on Dec. 28th. 2017. One can weigh 160 pounds the other 90, if the ref is at the other end of the field someone could be seriously hurt if it is a serious physical fight. If the ref isn't close or the coach, then a responsible adult should stop it.

160? That's a tall girl

 

[Surfref]

once again, i disagree with much of what you think you know. it's a lot of armchair quarter back talk, and wishful thinking, and puppies and rainbows. but, as you say, i'm not changing your opinion, and you're not changing what i know from many years of experience, some of which was learned from lots of things i have done wrong over the years. i know how to do the job and what is expected from me, not by parents or coaches, but from people who have instructed me on how to handle situations, and like i said, from many years of experiencing these situations.

i referee the game for the players. the players, to some degree, dictate how the game gets called. i really don't care what their parents want or their coaches want, i care what they want.

A-hole!!!! I was drinking coffee and laughed so hard at the ""puppies and rainbows" the coffee came out my nose.

 

[Surfref]

160? That's a tall girl

Maybe she is short and really loves Twinkies.

 

[Deadpoolscores!]

Maybe she is short and really loves Twinkies.

Must be the Senior Chief's daughter if you want to take it there J/K

 

[texanincali]

once again, i disagree with much of what you think you know. it's a lot of armchair quarter back talk, and wishful thinking, and puppies and rainbows. but, as you say, i'm not changing your opinion, and you're not changing what i know from many years of experience, some of which was learned from lots of things i have done wrong over the years. i know how to do the job and what is expected from me, not by parents or coaches, but from people who have instructed me on how to handle situations, and like i said, from many years of experiencing these situations.

i referee the game for the players. the players, to some degree, dictate how the game gets called. i really don't care what their parents want or their coaches want, i care what they want.

No problem - you have every right to disagree.

Keep doing what you are doing - wish we had more referees with the conviction you have.

 

[coachrefparent]

That can be the problem with the written word sometimes. I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended. It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend. From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct. The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop. To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit." It was heard by most of the players. The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off. The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players. I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids. The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal. I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.

Clearly, this behavior all occurred because the referee could not control the coaches and players. Poor rferring leads to such parent conduct.

 

[Surfref]

Clearly, this behavior all occurred because the referee could not control the coaches and players. Poor rferring leads to such parent conduct.

I get the sarcasm, but most parents believe your statement. I saw these poor spectator behaviors at games refereed by very good National and State referees. One game had a National in the center and States as AR's. One crew I was on we had all State referee's and the parents evidently thought it was our first time on the field despite the CR doing a great job. The actual games had no problems on the field and the players and coaches were not complaining. The only people complaining were about 25 percent of the clueless parents.

 

[baldref]

I get the sarcasm, but most parents believe your statement. I saw these poor spectator behaviors at games refereed by very good National and State referees. One game had a National in the center and States as AR's. One crew I was on we had all State referee's and the parents evidently thought it was our first time on the field despite the CR doing a great job. The actual games had no problems on the field and the players and coaches were not complaining. The only people complaining were about 25 percent of the clueless parents.

It amazes me often, that these players are playing at an extremely high level, and some parents really have no clue what it is they're watching. I've seen it at surf cup, blues cup, ecnl championships, DA...... it really is incredibly surprising. You would think, that patents might actually try to understand what their kids are doing.

 

[socalkdg]

@baldref and @Surfref

While I understand you didn't see the exact situation that occurred, do you think you would have kept the altercation from occurring? How much physical play do you allow away from the ball? It would seem that pushing, shoving, kicking and elbows shouldn't happen when the ball is on the other side of the field from where these players are? Should an AR alert you to what is going on since your back may be to these players?

Lastly, if the fight did start between two players, what would you have done? Let them fight, tell them to stop? get in between them? Would either have received yellow or red cards?

 

[baldref]

@baldref and @Surfref

While I understand you didn't see the exact situation that occurred, do you think you would have kept the altercation from occurring? How much physical play do you allow away from the ball? It would seem that pushing, shoving, kicking and elbows shouldn't happen when the ball is on the other side of the field from where these players are? Should an AR alert you to what is going on since your back may be to these players?

Lastly, if the fight did start between two players, what would you have done? Let them fight, tell them to stop? get in between them? Would either have received yellow or red cards?

not much if any physical contact is allowed off the ball. especially if it's aggressive as you describe. but the center referee would be watching play and the ball for the most part, so yes, an Ar should alert him to any shenanigans he doesn't see.
as i've said a bunch of times in this thread, the referee can't stop players, or prevent players from fighting if that's what they're planning on doing. can we tighten up calls if it seems the temperature is rising? sure. does that work if a player is hell bent to smack someone? no.

players that strike another player and are caught by center or AR will be sent off.

if and when there is a full on fight, i'm not touching the players. i've learned from previous instances that even if i can stop it, bad things can happen. i'll be on the whistle, i'll be yelling at them, i might be trying to put my body in between any players approaching. it is a difficult thing to say exactly what i would do because these situations, although rare, are all different.

unfortunately, i was on the field for a mass confrontation recently. it wasn't little girls. it is difficult to stick to all the training and the things you're taught to do, because it happens so very seldom and when it does, especially out of the blue like this one, you can be caught off guard.

 

[Carpediem]

Somebody above referenced "Self defense". What is the protocol there? Federally everybody has the right to defend themselves so if there is a case , and we have all seen it, where a player does throw a cheap shot, elbow or strike, and the ref is clearly not in that area to protect the opposing player (technically then a victim)...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves ? Without getting penalized by the league.
Curious if this has ever occured or been an issue. I'm a big fan of the underdog and love to see bullies get their own when they pick on the wrong person.

 

[baldref]

Somebody above referenced "Self defense". What is the protocol there? Federally everybody has the right to defend themselves so if there is a case , and we have all seen it, where a player does throw a cheap shot, elbow or strike, and the ref is clearly not in that area to protect the opposing player (technically then a victim)...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves ? Without getting penalized by the league.
Curious if this has ever occured or been an issue. I'm a big fan of the underdog and love to see bullies get their own when they pick on the wrong person.

No. Retaliation will be penalized also

 

[coachrefparent]

Somebody above referenced "Self defense". What is the protocol there? Federally everybody has the right to defend themselves so if there is a case , and we have all seen it, where a player does throw a cheap shot, elbow or strike, and the ref is clearly not in that area to protect the opposing player (technically then a victim)...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves ? Without getting penalized by the league.
Curious if this has ever occured or been an issue. I'm a big fan of the underdog and love to see bullies get their own when they pick on the wrong person.

Not sure where you are going here. You ask if a player can defend themselves, then you suggest that the player "gets their own" from the other player with no penalty . Referees do not apply Federal law, and it's wholly inapplicable here (as is State law, etc.)

There is no provision for self defense in the LOTG, nor any stand your ground rule. If I felt a player was defending themselves after retreating, there would be no foul. If your definition of self defense is the reciving player getting a cheap shot back, or any other such retaliation, its a foul and likely send off. Pretty simple.

 

[Surfref]

@baldref and @Surfref

While I understand you didn't see the exact situation that occurred, do you think you would have kept the altercation from occurring? How much physical play do you allow away from the ball? It would seem that pushing, shoving, kicking and elbows shouldn't happen when the ball is on the other side of the field from where these players are? Should an AR alert you to what is going on since your back may be to these players?

Lastly, if the fight did start between two players, what would you have done? Let them fight, tell them to stop? get in between them? Would either have received yellow or red cards?

Unless there is a set play (free kick, corner kick, goal kick, throw-in) there is really no reason for physical play off the ball. Any shenanigans off the ball and far away from active play will usually be caught by the AR. A good AR will use their voice to defuse those types of situations. Anything more serious off the ball such as Kicking, shoving (actually a pushing foul or possibly striking foul), elbowing with force (striking foul) should all be dealt with either right away or at the next stoppage. A good AR will assess the severity of the situation, signal the CR, discuss the incident and allow the CR to address it. The referee crew also must trust each other. Baldref (CR) and I (AR) were working an older girls game several years ago. After the ball was played up field a larger defender grabbed the other teams forward with both hands a forcefully threw her to the ground. I signaled Baldy, he stopped the game, I told him what happened, and he ejected the defender.

If two girls got into a fight, I would sprint to the area. I would blow the whistle as loud as possible within a couple yards of the players and in a stern authoritative voice tell them to stop. The loud shrill whistle does a great job of getting everyone's attention and getting them refocused. If their teammates are pulling them off each other, than I will step between them once they are several yards alert. I would never try to step between them if they are close together. That is a good way for me to get punched. After they are separated and a good distance apart I will issue the initial two red cards if it was obvious both players were fighting (throwing punches, slapping, grabbing, kicking, etc.). I will always consult with my AR's to see if they saw something I did not. I have had fights between two players where I only give one red card and the other player a Yellow or nothing. I had a girls fight a few years ago where it was actually videotaped that one player was clearly the aggressor and the other player was just trying to defend herself. My AR verified what I thought I had seen.

I have also had fight just happen in very calm games. I had an older girl sucker punch a girl from the other team 10 minutes into the game right in front of me and right next to the benches. The coaches quickly grabbed their player and pulled them apart. It turned out the one that threw the sucker punch had an suffered ankle injury that sidelined her for six months the last time the two teams played 18 months prior. The girl on the receiving end was the one that slid into the player and caused the ankle injury. One red card for the girl that threw the punch and the other continued to play. Girls never forget!

 

[Eagle33]

Girls never forget!

150% true statement

 

[Surfref]

150% true statement

I used to be skeptical when girls coaches told me about problems from past games or players that "didn't like each other." Some coaches will say things to try and influence the referee, so I don't always believe what they tell me unless I know them. Now I take those things serious and keep a closer eye on any specific player mentioned. I will also verify with the other coach. Most coaches will be honest and give me their side of the story. In the past I have even been told by both coaches that the two teams do not like each other. I address this with the players when I check them in and make sure they know I will not put up with any shenanigans. That usually works to defuse any thought of retribution. I recently had two coaches tell me their teams hated each other (coaches got along fine) so I addressed it with the players at check-in. It was one of the cleanest games I have worked in a couple years. I think boys games are much easier to referee because they usually don't hold grudges for years or decades like girls.

 

[Lambchop]

160? That's a tall girl

In the game I saw one defender was at least 5'10 and the other almost as tall, maybe 5'9, very big girls for the age group. And yes, the taller of the two was a solid, muscular 150-160! The strikers that went up against these two were maybe 5' and 5'3 and much smaller frames.

 

[socalkdg]

@baldref and @Surfref

Thanks to both of you for the lengthy answers. Really sounds like you both have great control of your games.

Based on everything you both said I believe the problem in our game was the AR on our side, who never let the CR know what was going on, let it continue, let the fight start on their side of the field, and didn't do anything once it started. Hopefully it will be a learning moment for them and games in the future will see an improvement on their part with regards to this.