T 2.0

watfly said:
You're confusing arbitration with mediation. A mediator never expresses support for either side.
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Ahem --

"I don't see it as Putin appeasement. I see it as Trump trying to end the war and playing mediator to get a settlement."
 
watfly said:
I don't see it as Putin appeasement. I see it as Trump trying to end the war and playing mediator to get a settlement. Have you ever been in a mediation? I've been in several. The mediator will beat up both sides, even if they believe one is right, in order to resolve the dispute. A mediator couldn't care less about the specifics of the settlement, or who appears to be the prevailing party, as long as the parties resolve the dispute. I believe that Trump doesn't give a rats ass about which country gets a better deal as long the war is ended. The citizens of both countries lose if the war continues and the US loses if it keeps having to fund it. Would I be as deferential to Putin as Trump? No, but who am I to say if he can negotiate an end to the war. Doing nothing, except feeding the war machine like Biden did, has only prolonged the war if not allowing it to happen in the first place.

There are legitimate things to criticize Trump for, but this is not one of then...at least not yet.
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I'm on the fence with you looking down at the lunacy on both sides, from shrieking “handouts to everyone” Maxine Waters on on side to crazy, and even more dangerous, far right Christian nationalist Steve Bannon on the other. You are spot on most of your takes, very reasoned and reasonable. However, on this one, a mediator needs to be neutral, and definitely cannot benefit from one side losing. Here, we are demanding 50% of the rare earth minerals from Ukraine for continued support. That is definitely not a mediation. And, you are correct that a mediator will beat up on both sides. In this case, the US is beating up only on one side. I have not heard one negative thing said about the actual aggressor, Putin. This is straight out of the Neville Chamberlain book on negotiation. Nuclear armed Russia is a different cat than Germany, but you don't start giving everything away even before the negotiations start.
 
espola said:
Ahem --

"I don't see it as Putin appeasement. I see it as Trump trying to end the war and playing mediator to get a settlement."
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When has Trump expressed support for Russia attacking Ukraine? Criticizing Ukraine is not support for Russia. Appeasement was Husker's word, not mine, as I made abundantly clear.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
This statement is not supported. Fact check finds it to be false.
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Check your video, he said they had received 75 of the 175 appropriated, ergo it hadn't been sent. 75 hasn't been sent anywhere and the rest wasn't all intended to be sent to Ukraine, its all in the politifact piece, if you care to read and comprehend. You always have the choice, but rarely seem to use it, weird really. Multiple audits have taken place and one potential fraud of $40M has been uncovered, again in the piece.

I mean, who cares about Ukraine, they're just a useful political foil - let's extort them for $500B while ignoring that other countries have also contributed and collectively contributed more than the US. Let's spread Russian lies by stating that they started the war and that Zelensky is a dictator or that he only has 4% support. I mean, what the absolute fuck are you actually defending.
 
whatithink said:
Check your video, he said they had received 75 of the 175 appropriated, ergo it hadn't been sent. 75 hasn't been sent anywhere and the rest wasn't all intended to be sent to Ukraine, its all in the politifact piece, if you care to read and comprehend. You always have the choice, but rarely seem to use it, weird really. Multiple audits have taken place and one potential fraud of $40M has been uncovered, again in the piece.

I mean, who cares about Ukraine, they're just a useful political foil - let's extort them for $500B while ignoring that other countries have also contributed and collectively contributed more than the US. Let's spread Russian lies by stating that they started the war and that Zelensky is a dictator or that he only has 4% support. I mean, what the absolute fuck are you actually defending.
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Is English your first language?
 
Squishy said:
I'm on the fence with you looking down at the lunacy on both sides, from shrieking “handouts to everyone” Maxine Waters on on side to crazy, and even more dangerous, far right Christian nationalist Steve Bannon on the other. You are spot on most of your takes, very reasoned and reasonable. However, on this one, a mediator needs to be neutral, and definitely cannot benefit from one side losing. Here, we are demanding 50% of the rare earth minerals from Ukraine for continued support. That is definitely not a mediation. And, you are correct that a mediator will beat up on both sides. In this case, the US is beating up only on one side. I have not heard one negative thing said about the actual aggressor, Putin. This is straight out of the Neville Chamberlain book on negotiation. Nuclear armed Russia is a different cat than Germany, but you don't start giving everything away even before the negotiations start.
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Fair points. I see the continued support of Ukraine in trade for the rare minerals as a separate issue from a settlement between Ukraine and Russia. However, Ukraine probably doesn't see it that way and it will likely influence its negotiations.

To your initial comment, the problem is we go from one extreme to the other. We've gone from a do nothing President (either out of competency and/or choice) to a scorched earth President. The citizens end up losing in the battle between Democrats and Republicans trying to beat each other. IMO, (which is supported by polling) its the Democrats that have become more "extreme". Republican's have become less right and Democrats more left.

news.gallup.com

Democrats' Identification as Liberal Now 54%, a New High

Americans' ideological views didn't change in 2022, but liberal identification among Democrats hit a new high, at 54%.
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com
 
watfly said:
Fair points. I see the continued support of Ukraine in trade for the rare minerals as a separate issue from a settlement between Ukraine and Russia. However, Ukraine probably doesn't see it that way and it will likely influence its negotiations.

To your initial comment, the problem is we go from one extreme to the other. We've gone from a do nothing President (either out of competency and/or choice) to a scorched earth President. The citizens end up losing in the battle between Democrats and Republicans trying to beat each other. IMO, (which is supported by polling) its the Democrats that have become more "extreme". Republican's have become less right and Democrats more left.

news.gallup.com

Democrats' Identification as Liberal Now 54%, a New High

Americans' ideological views didn't change in 2022, but liberal identification among Democrats hit a new high, at 54%.
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com
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It takes two fences to know one
 
Squishy said:
I'm on the fence with you looking down at the lunacy on both sides, from shrieking “handouts to everyone” Maxine Waters on on side to crazy, and even more dangerous, far right Christian nationalist Steve Bannon on the other. You are spot on most of your takes, very reasoned and reasonable. However, on this one, a mediator needs to be neutral, and definitely cannot benefit from one side losing. Here, we are demanding 50% of the rare earth minerals from Ukraine for continued support. That is definitely not a mediation. And, you are correct that a mediator will beat up on both sides. In this case, the US is beating up only on one side. I have not heard one negative thing said about the actual aggressor, Putin. This is straight out of the Neville Chamberlain book on negotiation. Nuclear armed Russia is a different cat than Germany, but you don't start giving everything away even before the negotiations start.
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Here's the other thing. Trump talks a lot of shit when he's behind the bully pulpit. He was critical of Putin only 30 days ago.


However, when he speaks directly to that person he is more diplomatic (or more of a pussy). He's spoken directly to Putin, I suspect when he speaks directly to Zelensky he will have nicer things to say and report.
 
watfly said:
Fair points. I see the continued support of Ukraine in trade for the rare minerals as a separate issue from a settlement between Ukraine and Russia. However, Ukraine probably doesn't see it that way and it will likely influence its negotiations.

To your initial comment, the problem is we go from one extreme to the other. We've gone from a do nothing President (either out of competency and/or choice) to a scorched earth President. The citizens end up losing in the battle between Democrats and Republicans trying to beat each other. IMO, (which is supported by polling) its the Democrats that have become more "extreme". Republican's have become less right and Democrats more left.

news.gallup.com

Democrats' Identification as Liberal Now 54%, a New High

Americans' ideological views didn't change in 2022, but liberal identification among Democrats hit a new high, at 54%.
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com
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True. Also, it wasn’t long ago at all that RFK Jr, Gabbard and Musk were democrats. That’s a big pull to the left for Republicans. But, the “linear” left and right scale is a simplification that doesn’t really capture the idea that interventionism used to be a pillar of the right. Not so anymore. The Neocons and left are the primary supporters of this now. The only thing that makes sense to me is the left is able to use the money pits to skim off funds for their efforts to bring in future voters.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
True. Also, it wasn’t long ago at all that RFK Jr, Gabbard and Musk were democrats. That’s a big pull to the left for Republicans. But, the “linear” left and right scale is a simplification that doesn’t really capture the idea that interventionism used to be a pillar of the right. Not so anymore. The Neocons and left are the primary supporters of this now. The only thing that makes sense to me is the left is able to use the money pits to skim off funds for their efforts to bring in future voters.
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I shouldn’t neglect increasing personal wealth as a motivation. There appears to be a lot of that among members of congress.
 
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