Referees - what can we all do to improve the situation?

[baldref]

My son is 12 and has AR'd his first games. Whether on purpose or not, he's had four very experienced centers in every game including one who the same weekend was officiating DA, a USWNT u17 scrimmage and a Pac 12 college game. To say there aren't experienced refs in these lower leagues isn't true. There are of course newbies like my son. But there is such a shortage of refs that if you can't accept refs that make mistakes then the only solution is for you to replace them.

My son has had an uneventful first few games and I've watched him make numerous mistakes with throw in calls. He's getting better though and the centers have corrected him when he was wrong. Oddly the only bad parents were Presidio u12 girls parents, everyone else has been great. In that game a parent yelled at the center ref and swore at him. It really changes your perspective when you are watching to support the ref than to support a player or team. My son wasn't being yelled at, but my view on the parent certainly was that he is a psycho and I can't believe how worked up he's getting over a kid's soccer game.

I'd ask any parent who thinks it's appropriate for them to yell at an official or view themselves as a customer instead of a spectator to think how they'd want their son or daughter treated. Having coached for a long time and met refs for 25 years, I know that most are doing their best even when they aren't up to the standards we hope for them. And now having a second child who refs I know that the assignors do pay attention and try to get good refs more games, but often it comes down to having whatever ref is available versus no game at all due to shortages or injuries.

several assignors i work with are all about having experienced (even if they are don't give a shit grade 8s.....) referees there to not only help and mentor the youth ARs, but to protect them. and of course it's not true that the ecnl and da games get the best referees. they get the higher grade number referees and they get the referees who are buddies with those particular assignors. are they good referees? sure, most are. is it because their badge number is 7 instead of 8? or even 6 instead of 8? not hardly. i love working with the youth referees and ask for those games a lot.

in presidio and sdda with the auto assigning, you can get a really high level referees who do college games, DA games, any types of games. you can also get joe schmo "doesn't give a shit grade 8s" like me.

 

[Mystery Train]

and of course it's not true that the ecnl and da games get the best referees.

I agree with this 100%. There seems to be just about the same ratio of good to bad refs in every league my kid has played in.

 

[baldref]

No, that's a bunch of baloney. Yes, there are mistakes but there's also bad referees that take sides. They can be intimidated by a coach, or they can "punish" a yelling coach by having all of his "mistakes" on that coach's team.

Two weeks ago, opposing coach was yelling at the ref all the first half in a bully way. The ref got intimidated and did nothing. By the second half, the ball is out of bounds by 2 inches and the ref didn't see it. Our coach just yelled "Hey! at least make an effort to run so you can see it!!"; well, that was enough for that ref to call an nonexistent penalty against our team. That single yell by our non-bully coach.

Refs like that should not be officiating matches, the fact that "there's a shortage" doesn't mean that we must take the bad ones and be "thankful" for them. No.

cuckoo

 

[Paul Spacey]

Last week for our B07's, the ref made a point of telling me before kick off that he had officiated a number of D1 games and so this game was "just a warm down" for him. I smiled. Interestingly, he turned out to be rather poor; perhaps an indication that, like @baldref says, it's maybe not always the 'best' refs doing the higher games, just the ones with the higher badge number.

As with coaching, the badge number or qualification letter can often have no bearing on the quality and performance in that field.

 

[baldref]

Last week for our B07's, the ref made a point of telling me before kick off that he had officiated a number of D1 games and so this game was "just a warm down" for him. I smiled. Interestingly, he turned out to be rather poor; perhaps an indication that, like @baldref says, it's maybe not always the 'best' refs doing the higher games, just the ones with the higher badge number.

As with coaching, the badge number or qualification letter can often have no bearing on the quality and performance in that field.

a game is important no matter what level or age it is. and by important, i mean to the players. hopefully, i'm never doing a "warm down" game. ever.

 

[watfly]

Last week for our B07's, the ref made a point of telling me before kick off that he had officiated a number of D1 games and so this game was "just a warm down" for him.

At least he gave you a heads up that he was going to do a half-ass job before the game started.

 

[Surfref]

One of the biggest issues I have is that referees who don't know the LOTG correctly become so ignorant and dismissive if you mention, even in a friendly way, a point of law which they are clearly getting wrong. Two examples below; the first one being the most common type of response I get when talking about points of law with officials.

1. Player with small part of the front of his foot on the field and most of it on the touchline. AR flags for foul throw.
"Assistant, he is allowed to be on the field providing part of his feet are on the touchline."
"No sir, you're wrong."
"Sorry ref, I'm not trying to be a dick but that's how the throw-in law works. The foot on the field thing is a myth among referees. Don't take this the wrong way but check it out later, no big deal." (those are exactly the words I used).
"No, you are wrong coach now shut up."
I gave up.

2. Opposition pass a firm ball through to a player clearly 10 yards offside and it takes the slightest deflection off one of our players' jerseys who wasn't even looking at the ball. AR signals offside but referee waves play on and does the two hands 'friction' motion that all refs seem to do now, signaling a deflection. The player didn't score but when play stopped, I told the referee a very minor deflection like that does not invalidate the offside call. He told me that any deflection means it is no longer offside. Again, it was pointless trying to argue the issue and help him. He was a young guy and seemed very confident (he told me he was mentoring his younger brother who was AR) but again this is an example of a referee being too arrogant to consider that they might be incorrect and that will not serve him well moving forward.

Yes, referees may find it uncomfortable or patronizing that someone is trying to teach them (I see it as 'helping' not teaching) about the LOTG they don't fully understand so I do appreciate why they usually just say, "no sir, you don't know the laws, that's not correct."

If you go to see a paid lawyer and they don't know the law, you are going to shake your head and ask what's up. Sure, lawyers get paid more than referees but if you get paid for something, you should know the rules/laws or procedures relating to what you are being paid for IMO.

It is disheartening to hear that a Referee told you, a coach, to “shut up.” That is extremely unprofessional and disrespectful. That is completely uncalled for even if the coach is being a complete a-hole. That is a line that refs cannot cross.

As for the throw in. I get yelled at all the time by coaches and spectators that a player’s foot was on the field. My response is always a quick, “the whole foot must be on the field to be a bad throw.” I have even let it go when a player’s entire foot is an inch on the field since that is trifling and an inch or two will not make any difference in the throw-in since we really just want to get the ball back into play. I will be stricter on the 7v7 and 9v9 games since those players are still learning.

 

[Surfref]

I agree the abuse is part of it. But like most divorces, that's not the entire story and there's generally more than one side to the story. I've been on both ends of the stick now and can see both sides of the story. Yes, many [not all] parents are obnoxious...my own father once got told off by a ref for yelling "offside" on a throw in . But parents also have, in many cases, good cause to complain against the [again, not all] clueless refs, refs that just don't care, and the let 'em play refs that create dangerous situations. New referees aren't provided sufficient [what should be free] support, and that was the thing that discouraged me the most from USSF reffing last year, not to mention a few latent examples of sexism. The soccer orgs [from FIFA to USSF to CalSouth] don't provide sufficient guidance for how things should be called. The soccer orgs don't provide sufficient transparency for refs ratings or to protect the refs.

I have to agree with you on basic referee education. It is now online, but used to be a two day class over a weekend and new refs seemed to have a better base knowledge to start. IMHO the entry level online Referee course is as useless as the basic coaching course.

 

[Surfref]

For which leagues are you referring to?

For the discovery division of DSL I heard the association they contracted with don't have enough of the higher grade types to cover the games. For the older boys there were CR's this past weekend that couldn't keep up physically according to mutiple sources I heard from about all the commotion.

That is because the Discovery games are centralized at Silverlakes. Not many referees are willing to travel long distances to Referee 2-3 youth games. I would gladly work those games, but am not driving almost 2 hours to work for 5 hours and $160 just to have to drive another 2 hours home. That is only $18 an hour and does not take into account the $30 for gas. Pay me $250 ($28 an hour) for those 3 games plus travel and I might consider it. The ones I really feel sorry for are the assigners. They may have a hundred games to cover in a weekend but only enough referees for 80 games, so they have to resort to methods they probably don’t want to use. Such as assigning refs to 5-6 games in a day. Assigning referees to games that they really are not ready for that level. My main assigner is usually really good but once in a while he will put a new ref with me on a game that they are not ready for. Most of these refs try to do a good job and really listen to the pre-game, halftime talk and post game. Then you have the clueless assigners. I am up in LA area this Friday and first thing on Saturday, so I reached out to the local association to pick up some Saturday afternoon games. This assigner put me on 4 low level 9v9 no heading games with only one center. I called him and asked him why the lower level games. He said I don’t know you. My response was, “I am a State referee which should tell you that I am capable of refereeing the higher levels.” He asked me if I wanted to cancel. My answer was “no, I have already taken the assignments and those 9v9 players probably don’t get a State ref very often.” I enjoy doing the 7v7 and 9v9 games but get those games along with higher level from my home assigner.

 

[Surfref]

Had the opposite again, different game. 2 players battling shoulder to shoulder, defender raises his arm up towards the chest to push the striker...classic "swimming". Nothing that endangers either opponent. Striker did not fall. But it was enough for the defender to get advantage and win the ball away, which he promptly kicked out. Otherwise, the striker might have passed it to a winger running down my side. I shook flag for DFK, CR hadn't seen since he had the players backs, I signaled swimming to the CR. Does it rise to the level of careless "a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge"? I'd argue it does and the definition of careless is a very broad one. The "let it play" refs would never have called that, saying it was trifling. But if you go by the letter I don't see how it isn't. Exactly why more guidance is needed.

This is one of those calls that you have to take into account the skill level of the players. Most higher level players are okay with that type of contact and will play through because they know their teammate will do the same thing. Higher level players usually do not want a lot of stoppages for trifling fouls. At lower levels that same play should probably be called. Remember the game is for the players, so listen to their comments. If they are complaining about too many fouls or light fouls, then loosen up and let them play. The players will let you know quickly when you need to tighten up slightly. I always start with a tight game for the first 10 minutes and start to loosen up by listening to the players comments. This is not a constant but an ever changing series of small adjustments to match how the players are playing. Someone in an earlier post said refereeing was actually easy, but if you do it correctly it is 90 minutes of intense concentration, evaluation, and adjustments. After a 90 minute center, I am just as mentally tired as I am physically tired. I had four 90 minute games on Saturday with three centers and ran 20.4 miles and was completely mentally exhausted. It is also a lot of fun and a good challenge 90 percent of the time.

 

[Surfref]

......My son has had an uneventful first few games and I've watched him make numerous mistakes with throw in calls. He's getting better though and the centers have corrected him when he was wrong. Oddly the only bad parents were Presidio u12 girls parents, everyone else has been great. In that game a parent yelled at the center ref and swore at him. It really changes your perspective when you are watching to support the ref than to support a player or team. My son wasn't being yelled at, but my view on the parent certainly was that he is a psycho and I can't believe how worked up he's getting over a kid's soccer game.

I'd ask any parent who thinks it's appropriate for them to yell at an official or view themselves as a customer instead of a spectator to think how they'd want their son or daughter treated. Having coached for a long time and met refs for 25 years, I know that most are doing their best even when they aren't up to the standards we hope for them. And now having a second child who refs I know that the assignors do pay attention and try to get good refs more games, but often it comes down to having whatever ref is available versus no game at all due to shortages or injuries.

Sorry your son had to witness the U12 parents bad behavior. Hopefully the CR had the coach remove the offending parents. We referee as a team, so if a parent yells at me they are yelling at the entire referee team including that youth referee. I will not tolerate any parent or coach yelling at a youth referee. I will warn a coach once, but a parent gets no warning. All that the CR has to do is have the coach remove one parent for yelling at a youth referee and the rest of the parents will shut up.

 

[Paul Spacey]

I have even let it go when a player’s entire foot is an inch on the field since that is trifling and an inch or two will not make any difference in the throw-in since we really just want to get the ball back into play.

I really wish all referees would take this approach and make an effort to understand what ‘trifling’ really is. Players being called for bad throw-ins because their foot is a millimeter off the ground or the ball starts only 95% behind their head instead of completely behind; this kind of stuff is so infuriating as the idea of a throw-in is simply to get the ball back in play.

Why no foul throws in the pro game? Because fans would be up in arms if we wasted time on this pointless stuff when we want to see the game being played. It’s just as important for youth; we want to see them playing, not being
made to throw-in the ball like robots for fear of being called for a foul throw.

In the hundreds of games I’ve officiated, I can honestly say I can count the foul throws I’ve called on one hand; even those were only given because the action was so obvious that it was embarrassing and so I had to give it!

Spread your sensible approach around please!

 

[Zdrone]

Such as assigning refs to 5-6 games in a day. Assigning referees to games that they really are not ready for that level.

First off, much thanks for the explanations. I know this board can be a bitch fest and rare is the time that someone takes the time to post something positive or informative.

As to the quote above; I was speaking to a coach last weekend who was covering a boys 04 flight 1 champions game for his 5th game and close to 100 degrees outside. All 3 on the crew were fairly young but I can imagine the toll it might take on someone shall we say “with more experience in life.”

I think the parents need to put themselves in the referees position, especially in a mid afternoon game. They’ve already been yelled at for 3-4 games, explained the same thing 12 times and are probably done with humans as a species.

I think everyone on the board has had at least one poor experience but it tends to stick in your mind and override the vast majority of other games that the ref has been more or less invisible and its just the kids playing.

I would like to say it will “improve” when our kids are coaching/reffing/watching as parents as they are growing up with the game but (partly in jest) I think those that grew up with soccer can be as bad if not worse than those like me who grew up on baseball.

 

[Grace T.]

I really wish all referees would take this approach and make an effort to understand what ‘trifling’ really is. Players being called for bad throw-ins because their foot is a millimeter off the ground or the ball starts only 95% behind their head instead of completely behind; this kind of stuff is so infuriating as the idea of a throw-in is simply to get the ball back in play.

Why no foul throws in the pro game? Because fans would be up in arms if we wasted time on this pointless stuff when we want to see the game being played. It’s just as important for youth; we want to see them playing, not being
made to throw-in the ball like robots for fear of being called for a foul throw.

In the hundreds of games I’ve officiated, I can honestly say I can count the foul throws I’ve called on one hand; even those were only given because the action was so obvious that it was embarrassing and so I had to give it!

Spread your sensible approach around please!

Then why have the law? It should instead just read: "it's suggested that players have their feet on the ground and the ball behind their head, but so long as a reasonable effort to approximate the correct position is made, the throw in is valid". Heck...why call it a law?...it should be the "Recommendations of the Game". But that 's not what it says...and unlike a careless foul which leaves room for interpretation over what is trifling, when it comes to throwin the laws say "MUST". Now I agree with you that the law isn't sensibly written, but I'm not the one that gets to write them.

That said, I'd be o.k. with Surfref's proposition to judge the higher levels trifling as broader than say the rec levels, but if that's the guidance then it should be uniform and across U.S. soccer. Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get. And that's what's infuriating to the parents. Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins. I don't care what the rule is, and I know that it will vary from ref to ref in degrees...but the amount of space we have now between the most strict and the most lax is an ocean and the soccer orgs really need to get a hold of it and provide guidance. For my 2 cents, let's elevate Surfref and have him develop guidance for the orgs.

 

[Zdrone]

Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get. And that's what's infuriating to the parents. Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins.

Agree with you on this. The first 5-10 minutes of each game seems to be “what is the ref going to call?”

As long as the game is called both ways, the kids usually figure out the limits pretty quick.

 

[Paul Spacey]

Then why have the law? It should instead just read: "it's suggested that players have their feet on the ground and the ball behind their head, but so long as a reasonable effort to approximate the correct position is made, the throw in is valid". Heck...why call it a law?...it should be the "Recommendations of the Game". But that 's not what it says...and unlike a careless foul which leaves room for interpretation over what is trifling, when it comes to throwin the laws say "MUST". Now I agree with you that the law isn't sensibly written, but I'm not the one that gets to write them.

That said, I'd be o.k. with Surfref's proposition to judge the higher levels trifling as broader than say the rec levels, but if that's the guidance then it should be uniform and across U.S. soccer. Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get. And that's what's infuriating to the parents. Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins. I don't care what the rule is, and I know that it will vary from ref to ref in degrees...but the amount of space we have now between the most strict and the most lax is an ocean and the soccer orgs really need to get a hold of it and provide guidance. For my 2 cents, let's elevate Surfref and have him develop guidance for the orgs.

Simple really. As referees, if we were to stick to every law like robots, the game would completely lose any flow and be worse for it.

Seriously, imagine Premier League or World Cup games where foul throws are called every few minutes (watch closely, throw-ins at the top level are often outside of the ‘law’).

A huge part of officiating is being able to adapt to the level of players in front of you and adjust/adapt to the demands of the particular game and the environment. That doesn’t mean you ignore the LOTG; it just means you use common sense and discretion. Wisely.

 

[Tea and Busquets]

I really wish all referees would take this approach and make an effort to understand what ‘trifling’ really is. Players being called for bad throw-ins because their foot is a millimeter off the ground or the ball starts only 95% behind their head instead of completely behind; this kind of stuff is so infuriating as the idea of a throw-in is simply to get the ball back in play.

Why no foul throws in the pro game? Because fans would be up in arms if we wasted time on this pointless stuff when we want to see the game being played. It’s just as important for youth; we want to see them playing, not being
made to throw-in the ball like robots for fear of being called for a foul throw.

In the hundreds of games I’ve officiated, I can honestly say I can count the foul throws I’ve called on one hand; even those were only given because the action was so obvious that it was embarrassing and so I had to give it!

Spread your sensible approach around please!

Same with hand ball, please! Out of every 10 hand ball calls I see, perhaps 1 was actually deliberate.

 

[Zvezdas]

In comparison to old coast league days, i am pretty satisfied with the DA refs and their level of knowledge. I am just curious, this is question for Surfref and Baldref, i noticed last season at u12 DA and now with U13 we are getting mostly younger refs, literally in their mid 20's and a few times we had older gentlemen, are those refs more ambitious or better rated, whats the process for someone to become DA ref? Thanks

 

[MWN]

Let me add a few observations:

Referees make judgement calls on two items that the average parent/spectator just doesn't understand, which in turn creates serious misunderstandings as to the competency of a referee. I see it all the time in my capacity as a "parent" on the sideline who just happens to also be a referee. What are those two items?

The concept of "trifling" ... yes it was a foul, but it was not enough to blow the whistle, stop play and then restart. With trifling fouls we have to quickly ascertain whether the infraction is enough to disrupt the flow of the game. The thing about trifling fouls are that 94.475% of all parents fundamentally don't understand that referees are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL many fouls, but see the lack of a call on their sweet, darling player as evidence the "fix is in" the Referee is on the take or just incompetent. In fact, its not the referee that is incompetent its ... well 94.475% of the parents. Note, the roughly 5% that are not incompetent are referees with kids that play.

The second item is "advantage," which is a little easier but usually involves fouls that get the sidelines much more riled up. With advantage there are always those two or three parents that went freaking ballistic because the "hard foul" wasn't called and just don't understand that their team still has the ball and is on the move. Nope, the referee is "blind" ... "call it both ways" ... or whatever insult they think is appropriate.

So, how can you become a more educated spectator, just read the IFAB: http://theifab.com/document/laws-of-the-game, yes I know its 212 pages which exceeds the typical tweeter feed post limit by factor of 234,523,212,002X but you are smart, right?

Note, the Laws of the Game change get revised each year, so put this on your New Years Resolution list.

 

[Tea and Busquets]

Let me add a few observations:

Referees make judgement calls on two items that the average parent/spectator just doesn't understand, which in turn creates serious misunderstandings as to the competency of a referee. I see it all the time in my capacity as a "parent" on the sideline who just happens to also be a referee. What are those two items?

The concept of "trifling" ... yes it was a foul, but it was not enough to blow the whistle, stop play and then restart. With trifling fouls we have to quickly ascertain whether the infraction is enough to disrupt the flow of the game. The thing about trifling fouls are that 94.475% of all parents fundamentally don't understand that referees are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL many fouls, but see the lack of a call on their sweet, darling player as evidence the "fix is in" the Referee is on the take or just incompetent. In fact, its not the referee that is incompetent its ... well 94.475% of the parents. Note, the roughly 5% that are not incompetent are referees with kids that play.

If I could 'Winner' more than once, I would! If parents, players, and even coaches could grasp this concept, games would be more enjoyable for everyone.

This is my beef with the segment of parents (even on here) that dismiss "let-them-play referees" as a danger to kids. The real problem is the expectation that any contact should be whistled as a foul, a la basketball. Adding to the problem are the referees who think similarly, and call their games accordingly. That helps perpetuate the idea that everything should be called.

There are bad referees who call every little thing and bad referees who don't keep up with play and bad referees who do not know the game well enough. But having seen the issue from all sides as a player, coach, and referee, everyone needs to accept that they won't always agree with the referees and that the referees will make some mistakes. Part of the game is dealing with and overcoming that adversity.