Referees - what can we all do to improve the situation?
- Thread starter Paul Spacey
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Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
Last week for our B07's, the ref made a point of telling me before kick off that he had officiated a number of D1 games and so this game was "just a warm down" for him. I smiled. Interestingly, he turned out to be rather poor; perhaps an indication that, like @baldref says, it's maybe not always the 'best' refs doing the higher games, just the ones with the higher badge number.
As with coaching, the badge number or qualification letter can often have no bearing on the quality and performance in that field.
As with coaching, the badge number or qualification letter can often have no bearing on the quality and performance in that field.
baldref
GOLD
a game is important no matter what level or age it is. and by important, i mean to the players. hopefully, i'm never doing a "warm down" game. ever.
At least he gave you a heads up that he was going to do a half-ass job before the game started.
Surfref
PREMIER
It is disheartening to hear that a Referee told you, a coach, to “shut up.” That is extremely unprofessional and disrespectful. That is completely uncalled for even if the coach is being a complete a-hole. That is a line that refs cannot cross.
As for the throw in. I get yelled at all the time by coaches and spectators that a player’s foot was on the field. My response is always a quick, “the whole foot must be on the field to be a bad throw.” I have even let it go when a player’s entire foot is an inch on the field since that is trifling and an inch or two will not make any difference in the throw-in since we really just want to get the ball back into play. I will be stricter on the 7v7 and 9v9 games since those players are still learning.
Surfref
PREMIER
I agree the abuse is part of it. But like most divorces, that's not the entire story and there's generally more than one side to the story. I've been on both ends of the stick now and can see both sides of the story. Yes, many [not all] parents are obnoxious...my own father once got told off by a ref for yelling "offside" on a throw in
I have to agree with you on basic referee education. It is now online, but used to be a two day class over a weekend and new refs seemed to have a better base knowledge to start. IMHO the entry level online Referee course is as useless as the basic coaching course.
Surfref
PREMIER
That is because the Discovery games are centralized at Silverlakes. Not many referees are willing to travel long distances to Referee 2-3 youth games. I would gladly work those games, but am not driving almost 2 hours to work for 5 hours and $160 just to have to drive another 2 hours home. That is only $18 an hour and does not take into account the $30 for gas. Pay me $250 ($28 an hour) for those 3 games plus travel and I might consider it. The ones I really feel sorry for are the assigners. They may have a hundred games to cover in a weekend but only enough referees for 80 games, so they have to resort to methods they probably don’t want to use. Such as assigning refs to 5-6 games in a day. Assigning referees to games that they really are not ready for that level. My main assigner is usually really good but once in a while he will put a new ref with me on a game that they are not ready for. Most of these refs try to do a good job and really listen to the pre-game, halftime talk and post game. Then you have the clueless assigners. I am up in LA area this Friday and first thing on Saturday, so I reached out to the local association to pick up some Saturday afternoon games. This assigner put me on 4 low level 9v9 no heading games with only one center. I called him and asked him why the lower level games. He said I don’t know you. My response was, “I am a State referee which should tell you that I am capable of refereeing the higher levels.” He asked me if I wanted to cancel. My answer was “no, I have already taken the assignments and those 9v9 players probably don’t get a State ref very often.” I enjoy doing the 7v7 and 9v9 games but get those games along with higher level from my home assigner.
Surfref
PREMIER
Had the opposite again, different game.
This is one of those calls that you have to take into account the skill level of the players. Most higher level players are okay with that type of contact and will play through because they know their teammate will do the same thing. Higher level players usually do not want a lot of stoppages for trifling fouls. At lower levels that same play should probably be called. Remember the game is for the players, so listen to their comments. If they are complaining about too many fouls or light fouls, then loosen up and let them play. The players will let you know quickly when you need to tighten up slightly. I always start with a tight game for the first 10 minutes and start to loosen up by listening to the players comments. This is not a constant but an ever changing series of small adjustments to match how the players are playing. Someone in an earlier post said refereeing was actually easy, but if you do it correctly it is 90 minutes of intense concentration, evaluation, and adjustments. After a 90 minute center, I am just as mentally tired as I am physically tired. I had four 90 minute games on Saturday with three centers and ran 20.4 miles and was completely mentally exhausted. It is also a lot of fun and a good challenge 90 percent of the time.
Surfref
PREMIER
Sorry your son had to witness the U12 parents bad behavior. Hopefully the CR had the coach remove the offending parents. We referee as a team, so if a parent yells at me they are yelling at the entire referee team including that youth referee. I will not tolerate any parent or coach yelling at a youth referee. I will warn a coach once, but a parent gets no warning. All that the CR has to do is have the coach remove one parent for yelling at a youth referee and the rest of the parents will shut up.
Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
I really wish all referees would take this approach and make an effort to understand what ‘trifling’ really is. Players being called for bad throw-ins because their foot is a millimeter off the ground or the ball starts only 95% behind their head instead of completely behind; this kind of stuff is so infuriating as the idea of a throw-in is simply to get the ball back in play.
Why no foul throws in the pro game? Because fans would be up in arms if we wasted time on this pointless stuff when we want to see the game being played. It’s just as important for youth; we want to see them playing, not being
made to throw-in the ball like robots for fear of being called for a foul throw.
In the hundreds of games I’ve officiated, I can honestly say I can count the foul throws I’ve called on one hand; even those were only given because the action was so obvious that it was embarrassing and so I had to give it!
Spread your sensible approach around please!
First off, much thanks for the explanations. I know this board can be a bitch fest and rare is the time that someone takes the time to post something positive or informative.
As to the quote above; I was speaking to a coach last weekend who was covering a boys 04 flight 1 champions game for his 5th game and close to 100 degrees outside. All 3 on the crew were fairly young but I can imagine the toll it might take on someone shall we say “with more experience in life.”
I think the parents need to put themselves in the referees position, especially in a mid afternoon game. They’ve already been yelled at for 3-4 games, explained the same thing 12 times and are probably done with humans as a species.
I think everyone on the board has had at least one poor experience but it tends to stick in your mind and override the vast majority of other games that the ref has been more or less invisible and its just the kids playing.
I would like to say it will “improve” when our kids are coaching/reffing/watching as parents as they are growing up with the game but (partly in jest) I think those that grew up with soccer can be as bad if not worse than those like me who grew up on baseball.
Then why have the law? It should instead just read: "it's suggested that players have their feet on the ground and the ball behind their head, but so long as a reasonable effort to approximate the correct position is made, the throw in is valid". Heck...why call it a law?...it should be the "Recommendations of the Game". But that 's not what it says...and unlike a careless foul which leaves room for interpretation over what is trifling, when it comes to throwin the laws say "MUST". Now I agree with you that the law isn't sensibly written, but I'm not the one that gets to write them.
That said, I'd be o.k. with Surfref's proposition to judge the higher levels trifling as broader than say the rec levels, but if that's the guidance then it should be uniform and across U.S. soccer. Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get. And that's what's infuriating to the parents. Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins. I don't care what the rule is, and I know that it will vary from ref to ref in degrees...but the amount of space we have now between the most strict and the most lax is an ocean and the soccer orgs really need to get a hold of it and provide guidance. For my 2 cents, let's elevate Surfref and have him develop guidance for the orgs.
Agree with you on this. The first 5-10 minutes of each game seems to be “what is the ref going to call?”
As long as the game is called both ways, the kids usually figure out the limits pretty quick.
Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
Simple really. As referees, if we were to stick to every law like robots, the game would completely lose any flow and be worse for it.Then why have the law? It should instead just read: "it's suggested that players have their feet on the ground and the ball behind their head, but so long as a reasonable effort to approximate the correct position is made, the throw in is valid". Heck...why call it a law?...it should be the "Recommendations of the Game". But that 's not what it says...and unlike a careless foul which leaves room for interpretation over what is trifling, when it comes to throwin the laws say "MUST". Now I agree with you that the law isn't sensibly written, but I'm not the one that gets to write them.
That said, I'd be o.k. with Surfref's proposition to judge the higher levels trifling as broader than say the rec levels, but if that's the guidance then it should be uniform and across U.S. soccer. Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get. And that's what's infuriating to the parents. Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins. I don't care what the rule is, and I know that it will vary from ref to ref in degrees...but the amount of space we have now between the most strict and the most lax is an ocean and the soccer orgs really need to get a hold of it and provide guidance. For my 2 cents, let's elevate Surfref and have him develop guidance for the orgs.
Seriously, imagine Premier League or World Cup games where foul throws are called every few minutes (watch closely, throw-ins at the top level are often outside of the ‘law’).
A huge part of officiating is being able to adapt to the level of players in front of you and adjust/adapt to the demands of the particular game and the environment. That doesn’t mean you ignore the LOTG; it just means you use common sense and discretion. Wisely.
Tea and Busquets
SILVER
Same with hand ball, please! Out of every 10 hand ball calls I see, perhaps 1 was actually deliberate.
In comparison to old coast league days, i am pretty satisfied with the DA refs and their level of knowledge. I am just curious, this is question for Surfref and Baldref, i noticed last season at u12 DA and now with U13 we are getting mostly younger refs, literally in their mid 20's and a few times we had older gentlemen, are those refs more ambitious or better rated, whats the process for someone to become DA ref? Thanks
Let me add a few observations:
Referees make judgement calls on two items that the average parent/spectator just doesn't understand, which in turn creates serious misunderstandings as to the competency of a referee. I see it all the time in my capacity as a "parent" on the sideline who just happens to also be a referee. What are those two items?
The concept of "trifling" ... yes it was a foul, but it was not enough to blow the whistle, stop play and then restart. With trifling fouls we have to quickly ascertain whether the infraction is enough to disrupt the flow of the game. The thing about trifling fouls are that 94.475% of all parents fundamentally don't understand that referees are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL many fouls, but see the lack of a call on their sweet, darling player as evidence the "fix is in" the Referee is on the take or just incompetent. In fact, its not the referee that is incompetent its ... well 94.475% of the parents. Note, the roughly 5% that are not incompetent are referees with kids that play.
The second item is "advantage," which is a little easier but usually involves fouls that get the sidelines much more riled up. With advantage there are always those two or three parents that went freaking ballistic because the "hard foul" wasn't called and just don't understand that their team still has the ball and is on the move. Nope, the referee is "blind" ... "call it both ways" ... or whatever insult they think is appropriate.
So, how can you become a more educated spectator, just read the IFAB: http://theifab.com/document/laws-of-the-game, yes I know its 212 pages which exceeds the typical tweeter feed post limit by factor of 234,523,212,002X but you are smart, right?
Note, the Laws of the Game change get revised each year, so put this on your New Years Resolution list.
Referees make judgement calls on two items that the average parent/spectator just doesn't understand, which in turn creates serious misunderstandings as to the competency of a referee. I see it all the time in my capacity as a "parent" on the sideline who just happens to also be a referee. What are those two items?
The concept of "trifling" ... yes it was a foul, but it was not enough to blow the whistle, stop play and then restart. With trifling fouls we have to quickly ascertain whether the infraction is enough to disrupt the flow of the game. The thing about trifling fouls are that 94.475% of all parents fundamentally don't understand that referees are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL many fouls, but see the lack of a call on their sweet, darling player as evidence the "fix is in" the Referee is on the take or just incompetent. In fact, its not the referee that is incompetent its ... well 94.475% of the parents. Note, the roughly 5% that are not incompetent are referees with kids that play.
The second item is "advantage," which is a little easier but usually involves fouls that get the sidelines much more riled up. With advantage there are always those two or three parents that went freaking ballistic because the "hard foul" wasn't called and just don't understand that their team still has the ball and is on the move. Nope, the referee is "blind" ... "call it both ways" ... or whatever insult they think is appropriate.
So, how can you become a more educated spectator, just read the IFAB: http://theifab.com/document/laws-of-the-game, yes I know its 212 pages which exceeds the typical tweeter feed post limit by factor of 234,523,212,002X but you are smart, right?
Note, the Laws of the Game change get revised each year, so put this on your New Years Resolution list.
Tea and Busquets
SILVER
If I could 'Winner' more than once, I would! If parents, players, and even coaches could grasp this concept, games would be more enjoyable for everyone.
This is my beef with the segment of parents (even on here) that dismiss "let-them-play referees" as a danger to kids. The real problem is the expectation that any contact should be whistled as a foul, a la basketball. Adding to the problem are the referees who think similarly, and call their games accordingly. That helps perpetuate the idea that everything should be called.
There are bad referees who call every little thing and bad referees who don't keep up with play and bad referees who do not know the game well enough. But having seen the issue from all sides as a player, coach, and referee, everyone needs to accept that they won't always agree with the referees and that the referees will make some mistakes. Part of the game is dealing with and overcoming that adversity.
Eagle33
PREMIER
Sorry to jump in and I'm sure Surfref and Baldref will give you a better answer.
US Soccer is trying really hard and very successfully to bring young and promising referees through the ranks. Just like they are doing with making DA players age younger and younger.
Those refs being put on the fast track and developed what they called in a "meaningful" games. They get constant training and assessment. Physical abilities play the major factor why you see younger referees and of course the fact that what better to get experience for them then doing 12-13 yo games?
To become DA referee you need to apply through US Soccer (that's who assign and pay for DA games). Any certified referee can apply and then go through the paperwork and clearance process, and passing the DA Rules test, which is a little different than USSF test.
For example I was surprised when I got excepted to referee DA Showcase last Summer since I'm Emeritus, which technically considers to be inactive or retired referee. I was even more surprised when I found out that I was The only Emeritus in the tournament.
younothat
PREMIER
/Philosophy side bar
Expectations......when those don't jive with reality some people have a hard time accepting and become unhappy
The expectations are that everybody will get highly qualified experienced officials for every game, they will be 100% fit, running up & down all game and be close by for every call, all judgement calls, 50/50, tackle, foul, etc should go their way, all the rules should be called perfectly, everything should be equal and fair, no mistakes are allowed, and the untrained spectator knows better than the trained personnel. Doesn't matter if its the first game of the day or the last one where the officials could have been working all day, we still demand all these things are done to our satisfaction or we will become vocal or angry if we don't get them.
The "golden" league or tournament Expectation; Hey we play in XYZ league so the coaches, fields, and refs are better than ABC league where we used to play never mind the coaches, fields, and refs are mostly the same but they have that "golden" patch that servers as a reminder that the expectations are greater.
You hear spectators, coaches, tell each other or the players that the officials will be this way or that way, don't expect any calls in your favor or whatever before hand but still some people are quick to forget that and become unhappy at the first judgement call or thing that doesn't go there way.
Normally a good way of sustaining high happiness levels is to maintain low expectations but we can't seem to do that with youth sports. Happiness is normally inversely proportional to one’s expectations.
Setting low expectations seems like a easy concept, but in reality nearly impossible to practice. Subconscious doesn't allow it, thus we revert to being unhappy or vocal. Our past experiences generate expectations, we can't start from scratch or have a clean slate or open mind so the slightest things can bother some people and they act out.
So what can you do? Rather than trying to manage expectations before something occurs, you have to mange your self better after the "expectations" don't meet your standard.
/ Philosophy end
So what can Referees and associations do to improve relations: First thing I can think of is better communications, feedback, and open visibility to what's going on, 2nd thing is more accountability
Feedback not enough of this is done is this area IMO, maybe due to language barriers, people not speaking up, or feeling like they can. Feedback should be given to a team and they should be able to give some of that back. Let the players and coach give some feedback after each game, written & documented so there are no miss understandings. Same with the officials how about publishing some of feedback that was given to a team?
There are game reports, notes, ratings, etc all of which are not normally available so most have have no way of knowing whats going on for example.
Accountability is like a black box, what, how, or when are referees and associations being held accountable? Coaches, spectators, players can be disciplines but how about the officials? we don't see their yellow cards, ratings, or whatever so people tend to think the can do whatever job they want and they won't be held accountable, Not that "so and so Ref again, he or she is this or that." and noting seems to change.
Expectations......when those don't jive with reality some people have a hard time accepting and become unhappy
The expectations are that everybody will get highly qualified experienced officials for every game, they will be 100% fit, running up & down all game and be close by for every call, all judgement calls, 50/50, tackle, foul, etc should go their way, all the rules should be called perfectly, everything should be equal and fair, no mistakes are allowed, and the untrained spectator knows better than the trained personnel. Doesn't matter if its the first game of the day or the last one where the officials could have been working all day, we still demand all these things are done to our satisfaction or we will become vocal or angry if we don't get them.
The "golden" league or tournament Expectation; Hey we play in XYZ league so the coaches, fields, and refs are better than ABC league where we used to play never mind the coaches, fields, and refs are mostly the same but they have that "golden" patch that servers as a reminder that the expectations are greater.
You hear spectators, coaches, tell each other or the players that the officials will be this way or that way, don't expect any calls in your favor or whatever before hand but still some people are quick to forget that and become unhappy at the first judgement call or thing that doesn't go there way.
Normally a good way of sustaining high happiness levels is to maintain low expectations but we can't seem to do that with youth sports. Happiness is normally inversely proportional to one’s expectations.
Setting low expectations seems like a easy concept, but in reality nearly impossible to practice. Subconscious doesn't allow it, thus we revert to being unhappy or vocal. Our past experiences generate expectations, we can't start from scratch or have a clean slate or open mind so the slightest things can bother some people and they act out.
So what can you do? Rather than trying to manage expectations before something occurs, you have to mange your self better after the "expectations" don't meet your standard.
/ Philosophy end
So what can Referees and associations do to improve relations: First thing I can think of is better communications, feedback, and open visibility to what's going on, 2nd thing is more accountability
Feedback not enough of this is done is this area IMO, maybe due to language barriers, people not speaking up, or feeling like they can. Feedback should be given to a team and they should be able to give some of that back. Let the players and coach give some feedback after each game, written & documented so there are no miss understandings. Same with the officials how about publishing some of feedback that was given to a team?
There are game reports, notes, ratings, etc all of which are not normally available so most have have no way of knowing whats going on for example.
Accountability is like a black box, what, how, or when are referees and associations being held accountable? Coaches, spectators, players can be disciplines but how about the officials? we don't see their yellow cards, ratings, or whatever so people tend to think the can do whatever job they want and they won't be held accountable, Not that "so and so Ref again, he or she is this or that." and noting seems to change.
Agree with you on advantage but disagree with you on "trifling". As I've said before, the problem isn't with the refs or spectators here, but with the Laws and the guidance for how the game is to be interpreted. IIRC, the word "trifling" doesn't appear in the Laws. To be a foul it has to be careless, reckless or use excess force. Law 12.1. A careless foul is either "when a player shows lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge" or "acts without precaution". Law 12.1 That's a VERY expansive definition. Trifling used to be included as a clarifying decision to Law 5 as advice to FIFA to referees. The clarification provided that referees should stop the game as with "as little interference of possible" and to penalize "deliberate breaches of the law". FIFA Board Decision Law 5, Decision 8, 2009. It was removed by FIFA. It may still or not appear in the USSF Advice to Referees but I haven't been able to find a copy easily downloadable. In any case, the two pieces seem to be in conflict because "deliberate" (in advice) may override the word "careless" (which is in the Law which is a superior governing document). There's also a wide range of dispute out there over what the word "trifling" means from having any impact on the match to anything which is not deliberate.
So I don't really blame parents here and reading the Laws is not going to be particularly helpful with this concept. The Laws are vague and ambiguous and sometimes are in direct conflict with the way the game is being refereed (such as the usage of the word "MUST" for throwins which unlike trifling does not allow a broad scope for interpretation). Now we can argue that the Laws are "living document" filled with "penumbras" and "evolving concepts" and shouldn't be "strictly interpreted" but that's part of the problem....parents shouldn't have to hire constitutional lawyers to interpret the Laws, and referees shouldn't have such a broad discretion where one ref is calling everything and another ref is basically letting the players have at and willfully take each other down "letting them play". This isn't just a parent problem....this isn't just a referee problem....this is a Laws problem and the soccer orgs are partially responsible.
I'll go further and venture this is even a [minor] reason why soccer doesn't catch on in the US, particularly in red states....Americans have a strong sense of "fairness" in sport and don't like it when their sports are subject to the whims of officials.