Ponderable

Andy Dukes said:
I did not say that. I say he took an unusual step that put him in an ethically challenged situation but his belief that folks should know overshadowed the professional thing of staying quiet. None of that makes her actions criminal.
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Well Andy as I said before, there are many former US prosecutors who disagree.
If you care to, here are a few responding to Comey...
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/437591/
 
Andy Dukes said:
Typical of when he gets stuck in a no win. He spins in the corner hoping you won't notice the dump he took in the middle of the floor.
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Typical of when you get "stuck in a no win" because of the following:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.



Keep Whirling you Dervishes.
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Typical of when you get "stuck in a no win" because of the following:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.



Keep Whirling you Dervishes.
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What did Comey state about criminal activity in this case?
 
Andy Dukes said:
They have as much status as you and I in this matter. They also have as much information.

Either Comey did what he thought was legally correct or he lied and was derelict in his duty. No third option available.
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Sounds like three options to me.

1. He lied
2. He was correct
3. He was derelict

I'm good with #2 because Comey's speech laid out Hillary's criminal actions: violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.

I'm good with #3 because despite the above he chose not to apply the law to Hillary "at this time".
 
Andy Dukes said:
What did Comey state about criminal activity in this case?
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You can watch the video or read the transcript if you dare. I have, and found the following to be applicable:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Sounds like three options to me.

1. He lied
2. He was correct
3. He was derelict

I'm good with #2 because Comey's speech laid out Hillary's criminal actions: violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.

I'm good with #3 because despite the above he chose not to apply the law to Hillary "at this time".
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But that also means you think he lied when under oath he testified the following:

“We went at this very hard to see if we could make a case,” Comey told the hastily summoned session of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. “The appropriate resolution of this case was not to bring a criminal prosecution.”
“We did not find evidence sufficient to establish that she knew she was sending classified information,”

Comey told the committee it’s “not true” that a separate standard was applied to Clinton or that politics tainted the inquiry. The FBI chief -- who has been a registered Republican in the past but said Thursday that’s no longer the case -- said the investigation was conducted by people who didn’t “give a hoot about politics” and performed their work in “an apolitical and professional way.”
 
Bruddah IZ said:
You can watch the video or read the transcript if you dare. I have, and found the following to be applicable:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.
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I watched his testimony in real time. Your opinion is not in question on whether you think the actions were criminal. You and I were discussing whether Comey thought they were criminal.
 
Andy Dukes said:
Comey told the committee it’s “not true” that a separate standard was applied to Clinton or that politics tainted the inquiry.
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"To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences. To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now."--Comey
 
Andy Dukes said:
I watched his testimony in real time.
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Bruddah IZ said:
"To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences. To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now."--Comey
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My quote from Comey was his comments after the prepared statement. It also, unlike his statement, was under oath.
 
Andy Dukes said:
I watched his testimony in real time. Your opinion is not in question on whether you think the actions were criminal. You and I were discussing whether Comey thought they were criminal.
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Not at the moment.....obviously.

To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences. To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now.--Comey

I'm not questioning what he thought or thinks now. The law says:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.



Is Comey above the law. No. Is Hillary? At the moment, YES.
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Not at the moment.....obviously.

To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences. To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now.--Comey

I'm not questioning what he thought or thinks now. The law says:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.



Is Comey above the law. No. Is Hillary? At the moment, YES.
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So, now you are admitting you think he lied?
 
Andy Dukes said:
My quote from Comey was his comments after the prepared statement. It also, unlike his statement, was under oath.
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That's fine. The separate standard doesn't change the fact that he laid out a case for criminal charges according to the following:


violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.
 
The law is supposedly there to make sure that Comey doesn't apply a separate standard for the following:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.
 
Are we done here?

1. Comey's not a liar, true believer at worst
2. Hillary is a liar
3. Hillary committed a crime per 18 U.S.C. 793(f)
4. Comey laid out a case for criminal charges against Hillary but chooses not to prosecute her.
5. Oh yeah, and did I say Comey is not a liar but a true believer?
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Are we done here?

1. Comey's not a liar, true believer at worst
2. Hillary is a liar
3. Hillary committed a crime per 18 U.S.C. 793(f)
4. Comey laid out a case for criminal charges against Hillary but chooses not to prosecute her.
5. Oh yeah, and did I say Comey is not a liar but a true believer?
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A true believer in what?
 
Andy Dukes said:
So he and the 30 agents were just incorrect?
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Comey laid out a case for criminal charges against Hillary but chooses not to prosecute her. I can't speak for 30 other agents. They appear to have done a job that supports prosecution of Hillary according to the law:

violating 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(emphasis added)

In criminal law, unless strict liability applies, a statute can require four distinct mental states (“mens rea”) to commit a crime: (i) purpose, (ii) knowledge, (iii) recklessness, and (iv) criminal/gross negligence.
 
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