NEW Referee Abuse Policy

[sigmabody]

You sound like a perfect candidate to start Refereeing games.

I have refereed literally hundreds of games, back when I was a FIFA certified referee in my youth. I have volunteer reffed scrimmages and friendlies for my son's club, and filled in for AYSO games when they needed a ref more than they needed all the hoops they make official volunteers jump through. Collectively I've had few complaints, and modestly I'm reasonably good at it. I've considered doing it again officially, but the required hours, contracts, and red tape are a significant impediment for me.

I think US Soccer could do two things to improve the overall quality of officiating:
- Reduce the red tape involved in getting more people in the pipeline (eg: remove the ancillary training and contractual requirements, allow a "test in" for certification without the mandatory annual training hours, etc.)
- Add public ratings to weed out the truly bad referees, and reward the good referees

Aside: There's a perception that a pay increase would improve the quality, but I'm not sure that would do much good. I suspect that some people who referee are motivated by the money (as side income), and some are motivated by making the overall youth game better. For the former, you wouldn't improve the quality much by increasing the payments, and for the latter that's largely immaterial. Moreover, we really want to attract more of the latter (imho), so I think US Soccer should focus on attracting and retaining that group more.

 

[Slobodan]

Really?

View attachment 24868

I think that was supposed to be our ref... he never showed.

 

[Slobodan]

I have refereed literally hundreds of games, back when I was a FIFA certified referee in my youth. I have volunteer reffed scrimmages and friendlies for my son's club, and filled in for AYSO games when they needed a ref more than they needed all the hoops they make official volunteers jump through. Collectively I've had few complaints, and modestly I'm reasonably good at it. I've considered doing it again officially, but the required hours, contracts, and red tape are a significant impediment for me.

I think US Soccer could do two things to improve the overall quality of officiating:
- Reduce the red tape involved in getting more people in the pipeline (eg: remove the ancillary training and contractual requirements, allow a "test in" for certification without the mandatory annual training hours, etc.)
- Add public ratings to weed out the truly bad referees, and reward the good referees

Aside: There's a perception that a pay increase would improve the quality, but I'm not sure that would do much good. I suspect that some people who referee are motivated by the money (as side income), and some are motivated by making the overall youth game better. For the former, you wouldn't improve the quality much by increasing the payments, and for the latter that's largely immaterial. Moreover, we really want to attract more of the latter (imho), so I think US Soccer should focus on attracting and retaining that group more.

Public ratings? For rec and club soccer?

I've been in and around the game as long or longer than the hundreds of games you've refereed. If I had a nickel for every asshole yelling the wrong rule from the stadium or lawn chair, I'd be retired. For every dumbass that doesn't know the offside rule, handball rule or even throw in rule, there's 20 more that don't understand 'shoulder to shoulder', studs up or 'professional' fouls. You're feeding people to the lions. The LAST thing you should do is give these morons more information about the centers and ARs. With your experience, do you REALLY want John and Mary Lawn Chair involved in your shit?

I'm all for giving coaches a required card to fill out after the match, or a DOC or an officiating supervisor roaming the fields.

 

[watfly]

Public ratings? For rec and club soccer?

I've been in and around the game as long or longer than the hundreds of games you've refereed. If I had a nickel for every asshole yelling the wrong rule from the stadium or lawn chair, I'd be retired. For every dumbass that doesn't know the offside rule, handball rule or even throw in rule, there's 20 more that don't understand 'shoulder to shoulder', studs up or 'professional' fouls. You're feeding people to the lions. The LAST thing you should do is give these morons more information about the centers and ARs. With your experience, do you REALLY want John and Mary Lawn Chair involved in your shit?

I'm all for giving coaches a required card to fill out after the match, or a DOC or an officiating supervisor roaming the fields.

In defense, no one understands the handball rule, not even IFAB who wrote it.

 

[outside!]

Agree but a lot of those requirements don't come the league ... or do gooder government (like the fingerprint requirement).

Why would anyone care an adult had a history of sexual abuse? It worked out well for the Catholic church and the Boy Scouts.

 

[sigmabody]

Why would anyone care an adult had a history of sexual abuse? It worked out well for the Catholic church and the Boy Scouts.

I am personally significantly less worried about a referee stopping the game to feel up a kid in front of the coaches, other kids, and 20+ parents watching the game, than I am about people left alone and unsupervised with kids, but I supposed it is a conceptual concern. But also, disqualifying people who appear on a public and trivially searchable electronic DB of know sexual offenders shouldn't cost $50+ either, and if it was actually just that check (and not an indirect way for the state to collect everyone's fingerprints for later searches for other reasons), it would honestly be fine (and basically free).

Common sense is much more rare these days in the US, though.

 

[Grace T.]

I have refereed literally hundreds of games, back when I was a FIFA certified referee in my youth. I have volunteer reffed scrimmages and friendlies for my son's club, and filled in for AYSO games when they needed a ref more than they needed all the hoops they make official volunteers jump through. Collectively I've had few complaints, and modestly I'm reasonably good at it. I've considered doing it again officially, but the required hours, contracts, and red tape are a significant impediment for me.

I think US Soccer could do two things to improve the overall quality of officiating:
- Reduce the red tape involved in getting more people in the pipeline (eg: remove the ancillary training and contractual requirements, allow a "test in" for certification without the mandatory annual training hours, etc.)
- Add public ratings to weed out the truly bad referees, and reward the good referees

Aside: There's a perception that a pay increase would improve the quality, but I'm not sure that would do much good. I suspect that some people who referee are motivated by the money (as side income), and some are motivated by making the overall youth game better. For the former, you wouldn't improve the quality much by increasing the payments, and for the latter that's largely immaterial. Moreover, we really want to attract more of the latter (imho), so I think US Soccer should focus on attracting and retaining that group more.

I’ve met quite a few refs who need the income. My first club cr was a nurse who worked sundays to make community college tuition for her kid. There’s an opportunity cost there to…at a certain point it’s more profitable to do something else.

Why would anyone care an adult had a history of sexual abuse? It worked out well for the Catholic church and the Boy Scouts.

It’s a question of how far do you take it. For refs there’s not much unsupervised contact and very little ongoing contact with the kids so the risk is minimal. Does that justify showing id and running it against the so data base? Probably though note the so data base is broader than just pedos and includes teens convicted of statutory rape or nonviolent rape plea deals. Then where else do you draw the line…finger printing? Private investigators? 5 different notarized letters of recommendation? What about all the training?

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

- Reduce the red tape involved in getting more people in the pipeline (eg: remove the ancillary training and contractual requirements, allow a "test in" for certification without the mandatory annual training hours, etc.)

There's very little, if any, incentive for US Soccer, a league, or a club, to make the red tape / bureaucracy any more cumbersome than they need to. All they'd ever want is to have the most available number of refs, that are competent enough (mostly) to do the task. However - nobody (individual or organization) with any assets to lose (and/or protect), is ever going to touch this at scale without access to insurance. I have to believe that many of these requirements are driven pretty closely by terms forced on them to retain insurance at an acceptable (or any) cost. The bad guy in this scenario isn't only US Soccer, or those charged with administering the league or club, but has to include the insurance companies both they and the locations are dealing with.

 

[Slobodan]

In defense, no one understands the handball rule, not even IFAB who wrote it.

100%.

 

[Grace T.]

There's very little, if any, incentive for US Soccer, a league, or a club, to make the red tape / bureaucracy any more cumbersome than they need to. All they'd ever want is to have the most available number of refs, that are competent enough (mostly) to do the task. However - nobody (individual or organization) with any assets to lose (and/or protect), is ever going to touch this at scale without access to insurance. I have to believe that many of these requirements are driven pretty closely by terms forced on them to retain insurance at an acceptable (or any) cost. The bad guy in this scenario isn't only US Soccer, or those charged with administering the league or club, but has to include the insurance companies both they and the locations are dealing with.

Agree but the insurance companies are just acting rationally in light of the decision by the courts/lawyers and the government. It's the same when the insurance companies cancelled the palisade fire contracts. Don't blame the insurance companies...they are a business....it's the government policy which sets a cap on the rates they can charge which is the problem. The returns by insurance companies are notoriously small....they aren't price gouging. Want a bad guy? It's the courts, lawyers and government. Want another bad guy? It's the public that votes for the policies because we can't take ANY risk (see the boy scout and catholic church argument that always gets trotted out).

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Don't blame the insurance companies...

Agree, pretty much 99.8%. Blame is a strong word, and to many means they are doing something wrong that they need to change. Objectively, they are acting rationally based on all of the choices that they have - same as most (all?) of the other parties involved. If anyone is trying to find the one primary bad guy to blame - it's us (we humans), who are always wanting something for nothing and hoping that someone else is going to pick up the tab. (Which drives many of the activities that eventually result in legal rulings which result in business decisions which result in us wondering who to blame, rinse and repeat).

 

[whatithink]

Indeed. For lower levels and rec leagues, I have a very high tolerance for lack of competence, and generally I am the most forgiving of ref mistakes among the parents of kids on my son's team (having been a ref for around a decade in my youth).

I have had probably an average of 2-3 games per year where I though the ref was incompetent to the point where I would file a complaint, if there was an easy way to do so. These would be things like missing easy calls repeatedly, and/or letting the game get out of control to the point where the kids were in danger of getting injured. The team plays probably 50 games a year, so that's a pretty low percentage.

I have had one game in the last 3 years where I though the ref was clearly biased and paid off to cheat for the other team (the aforementioned State Cup game, at the Legends owned facility, against the Legends team). He called a penalty against our player for a slide tackle, which he admitted to the player on the field was 100% clean after the fact, but he called the penalty for a perceived dangerous play (which, even if that was a correct call, which it was not, would have been indirect). He called another foul later when our player got pushed over from behind, blatantly... on our player. He was 100% corrupt, laughably, and not even trying to be particularly subtle about it... to the point where we all stopped getting angry, and just told the players that sometimes the refs are just dirty, and they were clearly cheated out of that game. Apparently Legends cheating is fairly well-known, though, to be fair (I learned this afterwards).

Also, to be clear, I'm not even asking for penalties against bad refs, I just want a path for parents to identify and report perceived bad refs, to mitigate some of the entirely one-sided handling by the leagues and tournaments. If there's no way to weed out bad refs over time, then parents just get more and more frustrated, which will lead to escalations. More one-sided responses will not help this ongoing and increasing problem.

Maybe if 94-96% of the games are OK and only 1 out of 150 was clearly biased, its not such a big deal. The 4-6% could be new refs lacking experience, and so understandable. Given its youth soccer, pretty low on the totem pole for refs generally, a 94-96% ok rating is probably pretty great!

As for a feedback loop, wouldn't that lead to an increase in game fees to pay for the system and reviewers, and then the feedback loop, i.e. there would now be some expectation of a reply or conclusion or what's the point.

I was at a HS game recently and the ref was pretty bad, and parents were moaning. At a break in play, the AR turned around and said the ref was new so chill (I'm paraphrasing). It made sense then. He didn't get better but , he was bad for everyone; so consistent and I can live with consistent .

 

[Grace T.]

Maybe if 94-96% of the games are OK and only 1 out of 150 was clearly biased, its not such a big deal. The 4-6% could be new refs lacking experience, and so understandable. Given its youth soccer, pretty low on the totem pole for refs generally, a 94-96% ok rating is probably pretty great!

As for a feedback loop, wouldn't that lead to an increase in game fees to pay for the system and reviewers, and then the feedback loop, i.e. there would now be some expectation of a reply or conclusion or what's the point.

I was at a HS game recently and the ref was pretty bad, and parents were moaning. At a break in play, the AR turned around and said the ref was new so chill (I'm paraphrasing). It made sense then. He didn't get better but , he was bad for everyone; so consistent and I can live with consistent .

The issue in soccer (again going back to Slobi's over the plate baseball analogy) is that not all playing styles are the same. So if a referee calls something very loose, and it happens to be a physical team versus a technical possession team, the physical team is going to be at a distinct advantage. Moreover, there is enhanced danger for the technical possession team but not the physical team unless retaliations start happening (and then the ref runs the risk of losing control of the game). It also goes vice versa.

 

[whatithink]

The issue in soccer (again going back to Slobi's over the plate baseball analogy) is that not all playing styles are the same. So if a referee calls something very loose, and it happens to be a physical team versus a technical possession team, the physical team is going to be at a distinct advantage. Moreover, there is enhanced danger for the technical possession team but not the physical team unless retaliations start happening (and then the ref runs the risk of losing control of the game). It also goes vice versa.

But that's not an issue, more a "whatever". You know what style you have and what styles you may come up against and plan accordingly.

 

[Orangeteam]

The writing about abuse of officials goes back 15+ years at the youth level so fair to say nothing has changed.
Its probably gotten worse which is why there is a full bylaw written about it.


Everyone wants the most experienced refs, but I dont' think experienced refs want to officiate a club game if they don't have to.
It might be a good discussion as to why they don't transtion from regional or national service to the club scene.
I only signed up to do playoff, finals, or in rare situations game that had cancellations.

And remember, it's not just soccer. Baseball, baseketball, any sports requiring an official are suffering the same issue.

 

[whatithink]

The writing about abuse of officials goes back 15+ years at the youth level so fair to say nothing has changed.
Its probably gotten worse which is why there is a full bylaw written about it.


Everyone wants the most experienced refs, but I dont' think experienced refs want to officiate a club game if they don't have to.
It might be a good discussion as to why they don't transtion from regional or national service to the club scene.
I only signed up to do playoff, finals, or in rare situations game that had cancellations.

And remember, it's not just soccer. Baseball, baseketball, any sports requiring an official are suffering the same issue.

Its not unique to the US either. I recall reading about the soccer refs in Dublin, Ireland refusing attendance one weekend, causing every game to be canceled, to highlight the abuse they were receiving, and just as importantly highlighting that without refs, there are zero games. There was lots of angst from the federation and clubs about how they should be treated better etc., but not sure if things have improved.

Bottom line is that it seems to me that there has been a struggle for refs for a few years now and parents can be dicks on the sidelines, many or even most of whom seem to have a very faint idea of the actual rules.

 

[sigmabody]

A point of contrast, fwiw:

My son's team had a game today. The refs were great. A few questionable calls, which the coaches complained about a little, but virtually nothing from the parents. Game was under control and officiated fairly. No significant complaints; would rate them well, if we were allowed and enabled to give feedback.

The point here is that we often get caught up on the negative, which is the <5% of crappy refs and seemingly no repercussions for them, which sour the game and give all the rest of the otherwise good officials a collective bad reputation, and might lead to an increase in overall abuse. You fix that problem by looking at why those <5% of officials are getting a lot of abuse from parents (and/or the 5% of parents which are dishing out abuse at every game). You do not fix that problem by just trying to silence complaints about bad officiating.

And as an addendum, it's somewhat on some of the parents as well, such as myself, who understand the rules, to tell the other parents when they are being unreasonable. I do this with the other parents on my son's team (cause I have the background), to the point where other parents often ask me if a call was bad or not. I generally tell the other parents to calm down; it's a rare game where I'm openly complaining about the officiating, but it does happen (probably 2-3 games per year). Fixing the problem has to involve addressing both sides of the issue.

 

[RedCard]

I buy less the idea that the ref shortage is to blame. Latino leagues don't have any difficulty getting refs, none of them youths and most of them generally physically fit and competent, though they do run a cr only game and most IIUC pay in cash. Adult sunday leagues too, which also pay more, and many of which have a full crew. The reality is the pay needs to be substantially higher if we want to attract fit quality refs to forego other opportunities, particularly given how unpleasant it is. But that means club fees will continue to rise.

Those referees are most likely not currently registered with US Soccer. I'm sure many have heard rumors about past State Cup games where they would bus in referees from Mexico. Can't do that this year cause for the first time, referees for State Cup have to sign up for a GotSport account to get games. Apparently, GotSport will cross reference the referee information with US Soccer to make sure you are a US Soccer referee for 2025. Will it stop poor officiating, probably not. But it'll make sure all are currently registered and that's important for the safety of the kids since we have to go through background checks.

 

[Grace T.]

Those referees are most likely not currently registered with US Soccer. I'm sure many have heard rumors about past State Cup games where they would bus in referees from Mexico. Can't do that this year cause for the first time, referees for State Cup have to sign up for a GotSport account to get games. Apparently, GotSport will cross reference the referee information with US Soccer to make sure you are a US Soccer referee for 2025. Will it stop poor officiating, probably not. But it'll make sure all are currently registered and that's important for the safety of the kids since we have to go through background

Pssst…you don’t have to be a citizen or documented worker to pass the background check. Undocumented workers can get licenses in California. The valley is full of back room offices you can procure ss numbers…they are some of those insurance places you see in the mini malls…it’s how restaurant workers at your local dennys get them. I have no idea how large the problem is but pre covid when I worked as a ref i met quite a few. It might be small. It might be large. I also don’t know how extensive that background check is.

Ps those offices are the same places the line cheats get fake age papers. It’s why my kids Latino League implemented a triple id check that caused him issues in registration…his school had stopped giving out physical id cards…they made him go home and bring his yearbook

 

[Carlsbad7]

Pssst…you don’t have to be a citizen or documented worker to pass the background check. Undocumented workers can get licenses in California. The valley is full of back room offices you can procure ss numbers…they are some of those insurance places you see in the mini malls…it’s how restaurant workers at your local dennys get them. I have no idea how large the problem is but pre covid when I worked as a ref i met quite a few. It might be small. It might be large. I also don’t know how extensive that background check is.

Ps those offices are the same places the line cheats get fake age papers. It’s why my kids Latino League implemented a triple id check that caused him issues in registration…his school had stopped giving out physical id cards…they made him go home and bring his yearbook

Not that I don't doubt dishonest ways to obtain SSNs and other required forms needed to work exist.

I have a feeling under Trump x2 they aren't going to work long term.

 

[FutsalIsFurReal]

Its not unique to the US either. I recall reading about the soccer refs in Dublin, Ireland refusing attendance one weekend, causing every game to be canceled, to highlight the abuse they were receiving, and just as importantly highlighting that without refs, there are zero games. There was lots of angst from the federation and clubs about how they should be treated better etc., but not sure if things have improved.

Bottom line is that it seems to me that there has been a struggle for refs for a few years now and parents can be dicks on the sidelines, many or even most of whom seem to have a very faint idea of the actual rules.

The solution is simple: Parents need to shut the fuck up on the sidelines.

The only problems with the new policy are: (1) the penalties are not harsh enough; and (2) there's still no assurance that all referees will enforce a "zero tolerance" rule.

The zero tolerance policy will only work if all refs are told there is no discretion: one complaint and dumbshit dad and crazy mom are suspended for 2 or more games. If every ref enforces that rule remorselessly, the zero tolerance rule will have its intended effect within a couple months. The sidelines will become respectful, positive and something approaching how we want our children to behave. Hopefully this installment of the zero tolerance policy will have the teeth to be successful.
Because... let's be honest: the ones most vocal about bad refs are the ones whose kid's actual ability level diverges most widely from the parents' perception of the kid's ability level.
So shut up unless you're saying something positive in support of your own team, i.e., it's called cheering and your kid will love it.

If you really think your kid is in danger, take them off the field or put them in golf. But you won't, because what it's really about is your misperception of how much you know the LOTG and your kid's ability level.