How's that Elite 64 League going?

#girldad said:
Paying Club fees to play AYSO teams? Doesn't sound too ELITE. lol
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That's not really fair. At the younger ages those teams can be dominant especially on the boys side because they have a large recruiting base from various neighboring areas where they can pick kids off before the clubs get to them. They tend to recruit older, taller kids and can perform very well with that. On the boys end, various teams placed highly in state cup while CalSouth was still a vibrant thing. Problem happens towards the end of middle school where the high performers looking to play pro or college start looking at other options because AYSO is locked out of letter league.

Yet, you have clubs like the Red Bulls on the boys side which despite having no proven track record were offered MLS Next over several other clubs of various trackrecords. When it comes to the highest level of letter leagues, if you build it, they will come, as is evident if you look at kids going to those teams that can't even dress for games, that are lining up to play even for the worst team, or that are willing to play third keeper.

You have various clubs, mostly larger, that control the highest level leagues, and everyone else is pretty much frozen out, and as a result, will usually lose the best of the best of their players.
 
Rankings aside, I’ll suggest that everyone should actually be pulling for USYS to succeed with the E64 and NL Pro leagues (and I don’t have personal stake in this(. It’s the most open of the youth circuits right now and provides opportunities for both the independent clubs (some of which are doing amazing things) and the franchise clubs. The upcoming cross play between the two leagues is promising, At the very least if you are partial to US Club, when USYS succeeds it will force US Club to make changes to be better.

The US club soccer circuits are closed and prohibit increased competition (except for NPL which gets no investment), They lock clubs out because then they can’t recruit from them for their top teams, but also their 3rd-nth teams which pad their bottom lines.
 
chipmonk said:
Rankings aside, I’ll suggest that everyone should actually be pulling for USYS to succeed with the E64 and NL Pro leagues (and I don’t have personal stake in this(. It’s the most open of the youth circuits right now and provides opportunities for both the independent clubs (some of which are doing amazing things) and the franchise clubs. The upcoming cross play between the two leagues is promising, At the very least if you are partial to US Club, when USYS succeeds it will force US Club to make changes to be better.

The US club soccer circuits are closed and prohibit increased competition (except for NPL which gets no investment), They lock clubs out because then they can’t recruit from them for their top teams, but also their 3rd-nth teams which pad their bottom lines.
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Depends on the region. In Norcal the US Club circuits are more open to team based competition. Norcal Premier League is set up to be Pro/Rel at the team level between Flight 2 (NPL 2), Flight 1 (NPL 1), and ECRL. The result is very good and balanced ECRL League that is not Club based. It would be advantageous for US Club soccer and the Players to implement the same structure in SoCal. I agree that the USYS E64 and NL Pro structure is set up to break up the club monopolys, and give the underdog teams a legitimate opportunity to play at the highest levels. I hope it succeeds. Problem is, USYS needs buy in from the top performing clubs, and right now, E64 just isn't consistent enough in quality to get those ECRL/GA/EA/DPL/MLS Next teams to move over.

Like it or not ECNL (US Club) is top dog (Tier 1), and is under no threat of losing Tier 1 by any other League (not even MLS Next). This is due to the Tier 2 and 3 talent being spread out across too many Organizations (US Club, USYS, USSSA, MLS Next) . US Club Soccer has an advantage in the Tier 2 (ECRL vs. GA/EA) and Tier 3 (NPL vs. DPL vs. E64) league battle because they hold the Tier 1 spot; it is not likely ECRL and NPL are going to drop off anytime soon. USYS (E64, NL Pro) and USSSA (GA, EA, DPL) are not able to challenge the Tier 1 (ECNL) status quo because the Tier 2 players are spread too thin across too many competing leagues to create a legitimate competitive threat. USYS success or failure will depends upon the success or failure of USSSA (soccer); there is no way of taking on Tier 1, when you are fighting against three organizations for the Tier 2 spot. US Club (ECNL) will not be challenged until USYS (E64/NL Pro) or USSSA (GA/DPL) drops out of the Tier 2 competitive scene and the player talent consolidates into one organization or the other, allowing them to challenge US Club.
 
Code said:
Depends on the region. In Norcal the US Club circuits are more open to team based competition. Norcal Premier League is set up to be Pro/Rel at the team level between Flight 2 (NPL 2), Flight 1 (NPL 1), and ECRL. The result is very good and balanced ECRL League that is not Club based. It would be advantageous for US Club soccer and the Players to implement the same structure in SoCal. I agree that the USYS E64 and NL Pro structure is set up to break up the club monopolys, and give the underdog teams a legitimate opportunity to play at the highest levels. I hope it succeeds. Problem is, USYS needs buy in from the top performing clubs, and right now, E64 just isn't consistent enough in quality to get those ECRL/GA/EA/DPL/MLS Next teams to move over.

Like it or not ECNL (US Club) is top dog (Tier 1), and is under no threat of losing Tier 1 by any other League (not even MLS Next). This is due to the Tier 2 and 3 talent being spread out across too many Organizations (US Club, USYS, USSSA, MLS Next) . US Club Soccer has an advantage in the Tier 2 (ECRL vs. GA/EA) and Tier 3 (NPL vs. DPL vs. E64) league battle because they hold the Tier 1 spot; it is not likely ECRL and NPL are going to drop off anytime soon. USYS (E64, NL Pro) and USSSA (GA, EA, DPL) are not able to challenge the Tier 1 (ECNL) status quo because the Tier 2 players are spread too thin across too many competing leagues to create a legitimate competitive threat. USYS success or failure will depends upon the success or failure of USSSA (soccer); there is no way of taking on Tier 1, when you are fighting against three organizations for the Tier 2 spot. US Club (ECNL) will not be challenged until USYS (E64/NL Pro) or USSSA (GA/DPL) drops out of the Tier 2 competitive scene and the player talent consolidates into one organization or the other, allowing them to challenge US Club.
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On the boys side the challenge has already happened (with MLS Next), but you are still getting the split on the 2 and 3rd level: EA, EA2, E64, NPL, UPSL, NAL, Premiere. But it's still clear the undisputed champions are the academy clubs (in SoCal LAFC and LA Galaxy). On the boys side too, ECNL is very compacted (what is it 10 clubs total spread out all over Socal) as a result so that competition doesn't get diluted, but it also means various areas are underserved (such as the Downtown LA Club story we talked about in the other forum and the vast emptiness of clubs serving the Downtown-Downey-Long Beach triangle. On the boys side you cannot argue that the ECNL clubs are on par with LAFC and LA Galaxy or any of the other academy teams around the country...the only club that might take a run at that title is Strikers on the MLs Next Side

on the girls side, eventually you will get an academy system. The performance of the USWNT will eventually demand it. Some of the MLS Next clubs (like the Red Bulls) have specifically positioned themselves to take advantage of this when that happens. But it won't solve the problem of the second and third tiers....it will only make it worse and hasten the death of independent clubs and clubs in underserved areas.

CoachReed68 said:
One thing I like about CSL is that it is an open league with promotion/relegation. The closed leagues are overrated, IMO.
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One the one hand, pro/rel makes things more accessible to independent clubs since decisions are made on a team and not a club basis....it's possible for any team to just put together a good groups of players and randomly have success. But it has side effects: the biggest side effect is that it really leans into the winning is everything. I've seen too many teams wither on the vine because they didn't get the vaunted 1 or 2 slot...finishing 3 or 4 perpetually because the best players leave to get more advanced competition and they need to restart every year. Leads to side effects like coaches trying to win with players closer to the age line instead of developing them or boot ball. Not a way to do it if you want to develop a national team from among the youngers because you won't develop them that way.
 
Code said:
Do the Academy Teams play in seperate League or in the same League as MLS Next teams?
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Varies a bit age to age. But generally League has the separate MLS Academy brackets from the regular teams. The regular MLS Next teams are organized pretty much as cannon fodder for the MLS Academy teams, including so that second string players have a place to play.
 
Code said:
Do the Academy Teams play in seperate League or in the same League as MLS Next teams?
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Both.

MLS Flex includes the academies and the non-academy MLS Next teams together, but League play is split between "regular" league which is the non-academy teams and "Pro player pathway" league which is only academies (and requires much more travel).
 
Code said:
So does LAFC have MLS Academy teams and MLS Next teams for each age group?
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No. "Academy teams" in this context means academies for real MLS Next clubs (LAFC, Galaxy, Sounders, ...).

LAFC and Galaxy have one team per age group (though they play kids up a lot). That one team plays in both the MLS pro-pathway West League and MLS Flex Southwest Division.

Pro-Pathway League:
1695239043956.png

Flex (LAFC is there too, below the fold):
1695239087350.png
 
focomoso said:
No. "Academy teams" in this context means academies for real MLS Next clubs (LAFC, Galaxy, Sounders, ...).

LAFC and Galaxy have one team per age group (though they play kids up a lot). That one team plays in both the MLS pro-pathway West League and MLS Flex Southwest Division.

Pro-Pathway League:
View attachment 18140

Flex (LAFC is there too, below the fold):
View attachment 18141
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Okay, got it. Thank you. I was starting to second guess how I thought the MLS Next League was set up.
 
focomoso said:
It took half a season before I figured out the difference between "flex" and "league" and I still think it's kind of silly.
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Yes, it seems kind of silly.

From my perspective it just creates a "technicality" that allows a distinction between the Academy teams and all the other Next teams. The reality is they are all playing in the same league; yes the Academy Teams are stronger than most of the others. Maybe it is the terminology that throws it off. They should call "Flex," MLS Next League, and "League," MLS Academy Cup to be more in line with what is actually happening. When I refer to MLS Next, I mean all the teams, the good and the bad. Just like E64, ECNL, NPL, etc.. All the teams are a part of the League, I'm not going to cherry pick the top examples and apply their performance universally across the entire League.
 
Code said:
Yes, it seems kind of silly.

From my perspective it just creates a "technicality" that allows a distinction between the Academy teams and all the other Next teams. The reality is they are all playing in the same league; yes the Academy Teams are stronger than most of the others. Maybe it is the terminology that throws it off. They should call "Flex," MLS Next League, and "League," MLS Academy Cup to be more in line with what is actually happening. When I refer to MLS Next, I mean all the teams, the good and the bad. Just like E64, ECNL, NPL, etc.. All the teams are a part of the League, I'm not going to cherry pick the top examples and apply their performance universally across the entire League.
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Well, the other major difference is the level of training they are getting. The Academy teams aren't just "top" teams but the way they are structured is different. It's virtually impossible, for example, to remain on the academic honors track and do Academy. The MLS Next Teams are training 2-4 times a week after school for practices that are generally 1.2-2 hours long. The MLS Academy teams have not only practice but a conditioning but classroom element as well as specialty coaching (one MLS Next Club here in town couldn't even afford a goalkeeper coach and let there's go midseason last year). The facilities are also a huge difference...one MLS Next Team my kid trained with plays in a public park. You can't go through the two programs and say they are the same thing. While they might both be dogs, you are comparing a pit bull to a chihuahua. If you look at the games as well (many of which are available online), in SoCal at least, strikers is really the only major competition for most of the academy age levels.

The entire MLS Next program is structured around the needs of the MLS Academy teams, which are in a much more intense travel session for their official league. The regular teams serve as cannon fodder (for practice including to allow the second stringers some game time and the reserves an opportunity to dress). Some of the regular teams also serve as recruitment grounds (one of the reason folks want to play for Strikers isn't just because they win, or because they have a program with some specialty training that tries to approximate the academies, but also because Galaxy and LAFC regularly look at their players, indeed much more so than their ECNL affiliate LAFC-SOCAL/Real SoCal)
 
Grace T. said:
Well, the other major difference is the level of training they are getting. The Academy teams aren't just "top" teams but the way they are structured is different. It's virtually impossible, for example, to remain on the academic honors track and do Academy. The MLS Next Teams are training 2-4 times a week after school for practices that are generally 1.2-2 hours long. The MLS Academy teams have not only practice but a conditioning but classroom element as well as specialty coaching (one MLS Next Club here in town couldn't even afford a goalkeeper coach and let there's go midseason last year). The facilities are also a huge difference...one MLS Next Team my kid trained with plays in a public park. You can't go through the two programs and say they are the same thing. While they might both be dogs, you are comparing a pit bull to a chihuahua. If you look at the games as well (many of which are available online), in SoCal at least, strikers is really the only major competition for most of the academy age levels.

The entire MLS Next program is structured around the needs of the MLS Academy teams, which are in a much more intense travel session for their official league. The regular teams serve as cannon fodder (for practice including to allow the second stringers some game time and the reserves an opportunity to dress). Some of the regular teams also serve as recruitment grounds (one of the reason folks want to play for Strikers isn't just because they win, or because they have a program with some specialty training that tries to approximate the academies, but also because Galaxy and LAFC regularly look at their players, indeed much more so than their ECNL affiliate LAFC-SOCAL/Real SoCal)
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Appreciate the clarification. I always wondered why Next had a league in a league. What you wrote clearly explained why.

What happens to MLS Next Players that don't make it to the "next level"?

Do they just continue playing in the MLS Next league until they age out if they're not getting picked to play in the MLS or wherever?

Do they fall back to college? Do colleges recruit from Next?

Are these the players that end up playing at community colleges + trying to work the transfer portal onto better teams?
 
CoachReed68 said:
One thing I like about CSL is that it is an open league with promotion/relegation. The closed leagues are overrated, IMO.
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Check our Division 1 North Girls 2011 - the top flight for the Girls 2011. There are teams that were put in this division to fill up the numbers. Pro/Rel in CSL is gone.
 
Carlsbad7 said:
Appreciate the clarification. I always wondered why Next had a league in a league. What you wrote clearly explained why.

What happens to MLS Next Players that don't make it to the "next level"?

Do they just continue playing in the MLS Next league until they age out if they're not getting picked to play in the MLS or wherever?

Do they fall back to college? Do colleges recruit from Next?

Are these the players that end up playing at community colleges + trying to work the transfer portal onto better teams?
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Yes colleges recruit from next. Depends on grades and region

in SoCal regular mls next is > than ecnl which only has like 10ish clubs on the boys side. In Washington state ecnl is king because sounders (an academy team) is currently the only mls option. There was a post recently about Texas where some next teams have left to join ecnl and mls recruited some clubs with less of a track record than Red Bulls.
 
Code said:
Depends on the region. In Norcal the US Club circuits are more open to team based competition. Norcal Premier League is set up to be Pro/Rel at the team level between Flight 2 (NPL 2), Flight 1 (NPL 1), and ECRL. The result is very good and balanced ECRL League that is not Club based. It would be advantageous for US Club soccer and the Players to implement the same structure in SoCal. I agree that the USYS E64 and NL Pro structure is set up to break up the club monopolys, and give the underdog teams a legitimate opportunity to play at the highest levels. I hope it succeeds. Problem is, USYS needs buy in from the top performing clubs, and right now, E64 just isn't consistent enough in quality to get those ECRL/GA/EA/DPL/MLS Next teams to move over.
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Ah. Yeah. NorCal doesn’t even have any presence in this new league yet, so your views might stem from that too. It’s definitely region dependent and I definitely look at SoCal the most, where the leagues are also the most closed. I tried to leave rankings/tiers out of it but… Some regions have their top RL teams also playing E64. I’ve seen at least one club with ECNL place their second teams in E64 and third in RL And then there’s good teams in the league that aren’t in EC*L for whatever reason.

It’s hard to tell because you never really know roster situations at tournaments but the E64 teams seem to do all right whenever they play teams from the other leagues. More wins than losses from my sampling. Your tiers are very blurry outside the top 20ish/30ish ECNL teams. (Note, I’ve really only looked at the girls side.)

And I don’t mean succeeds as in must be the best league, just another good league that’s more open and gives parents and players another viable option for good competition
 
JabroniBeater805 said:
Check our Division 1 North Girls 2011 - the top flight for the Girls 2011. There are teams that were put in this division to fill up the numbers. Pro/Rel in CSL is gone.
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Check out b championship north 2008. They have a team there that barely makes roster and so on any 1 game will be understaffed (because kids have events like weddings and funerals, get injured, or get sick). This used to happen in bronze and silver (heck my kid was on a silver team before letter leagues this happened to) but not in so-called championship and premiere.
 
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