How will this affect womens sports in college?

MacDre said:
Okay, I’ll bite. Could you please define girl and boy?
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Chromosomally, based on the (normally 2) copies of chromosome 23.

For humans, XY are boys, XX are girls. XXY are intersex, as are some whose X chromosome has significant Y elements that did not come from the pseudoautonomal region.

Birds are different. And bees have the whole queen/drone thing going on. But human biological gender is pretty simple.
 
dad4 said:
Chromosomally, based on the (normally 2) copies of chromosome 23.

For humans, XY are boys, XX are girls. XXY are intersex, as are some whose X chromosome has significant Y elements that did not come from the pseudoautonomal region.

Birds are different. And bees have the whole queen/drone thing going on. But human biological gender is pretty simple.
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Many moons ago we thought Earth was flat. Maybe Mendelian genetics is wrong too. Maybe your definition of boys and girls is too narrow and should be broadened to include trans folks or other genetic variants.
 
dad4 said:
Is anyone accusing anyone of faking trans status? I agree it isn’t an issue. Nor is it a question of the end of all women’s sport.

There is an issue, for certain events in certain states, with women being relegated to second tier status in their own sport.

And, so far, no one* here on the left has been willing to talk about the girls who spend 5 years training in a sport, only to find out that the top one or two slots are occupied by boys.

*Except EOTL. He wants to insult any girls in that situation.
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Just the whiny snowflake karens who sue because they don’t like the rules. Pathetic.
 
MacDre said:
Many moons ago we thought Earth was flat. Maybe Mendelian genetics is wrong too. Maybe your definition of boys and girls is too narrow and should be broadened to include trans folks or other genetic variants.
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I have no problem calling her by her name at the next dinner party, supposing we are ever allowed to have those again. That is a social situation, and requires a social definition.

But, for sport, you have a very serious biological question. For that reason, you need a biological definition. It just doesn't happen to match my social definition.

In other words, she can be one of the girls who, for various reasons, is competing in the boys division.
 
dad4 said:
I have no problem calling her by her name at the next dinner party, supposing we are ever allowed to have those again. That is a social situation, and requires a social definition.

But, for sport, you have a very serious biological question. For that reason, you need a biological definition. It just doesn't happen to match my social definition.

In other words, she can be one of the girls who, for various reasons, is competing in the boys division.
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Fallacious reasoning because you have assumed being trans is a social construct and not biological. I think being trans is biological and therein lies the difference in our viewpoints.
 
MacDre said:
Fallacious reasoning because you have assumed being trans is a social construct and not biological. I think being trans is biological and therein lies the difference in our viewpoints.
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Interesting viewpoint, mind elaborating on your biological angle?
 
MacDre said:
Fallacious reasoning because you have assumed being trans is a social construct and not biological. I think being trans is biological and therein lies the difference in our viewpoints.
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Whether or not it is biological, the mechanism does not involve a significant reduction to the secondary sexual characteristics which give an advantage in sport.

So, in terms of biology for sport, that "girl" is a boy.

Now, is there some brain chemistry involved? Sure. But brain chemistry isn't what gives my son an unfair advantage when running against girls.

And unfair advantage is the right question when bracketing a sports event.
 
Lurked forever but finally have to post. I have a transgender daughter, biologically male. She has started hormone treatments. She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play. We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past. she plays two sports with other girls. She fits in with other girls. Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her. It is youth sports. The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports. She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field. As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic. The other kids don't care. It is small minded parents who do.
 
FutbolHeidiHo said:
Lurked forever but finally have to post. I have a transgender daughter, biologically male. She has started hormone treatments. She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play. We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past. she plays two sports with other girls. She fits in with other girls. Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her. It is youth sports. The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports. She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field. As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic. The other kids don't care. It is small minded parents who do.
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Thanks for sharing. Good to hear from someone with first hand experience.
 
FutbolHeidiHo said:
Lurked forever but finally have to post. I have a transgender daughter, biologically male. She has started hormone treatments. She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play. We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past. she plays two sports with other girls. She fits in with other girls. Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her. It is youth sports. The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports. She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field. As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic. The other kids don't care. It is small minded parents who do.
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What age kid, what type of city?

( SF bay area here, which may or may not distort my perception of the world. )
 
dad4 said:
What age kid, what type of city?

( SF bay area here, which may or may not distort my perception of the world. )
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Now 15 year old girl. Inland area of SoCal. Her preference would have been to quit sports because it was too hard but we fought for her to play. Once she found teams who were willing to get to know her she was glad and has thrived. The other kids are great and having teammates has made school so much better for her. Once kids know her everything is easier. She did run track in middle school. Now it is all team sports, but I suppose she is taking a spot from another girl. But the kids who compete against her don't even think of her as a boy with some unfair advantage, so far as I have ever seen. Trust me, this kid has had ZERO advantage in her life. Sports or otherwise.
 
FutbolHeidiHo said:
Now 15 year old girl. Inland area of SoCal. Her preference would have been to quit sports because it was too hard but we fought for her to play. Once she found teams who were willing to get to know her she was glad and has thrived. The other kids are great and having teammates has made school so much better for her. Once kids know her everything is easier. She did run track in middle school. Now it is all team sports, but I suppose she is taking a spot from another girl. But the kids who compete against her don't even think of her as a boy with some unfair advantage, so far as I have ever seen. Trust me, this kid has had ZERO advantage in her life. Sports or otherwise.
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Thanks.

A lot centers around whether it takes a roster slot away from another girl. It's an easier question when you're talking rec sports. It's harder when you start cutting kids.

The girl who got cut may also have had ZERO advantage, as you say.
 
dad4 said:
Thanks.

A lot centers around whether it takes a roster slot away from another girl. It's an easier question when you're talking rec sports. It's harder when you start cutting kids.

The girl who got cut may also have had ZERO advantage, as you say.
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What would you suggest is the best option for my daughter? if you are so worried about kids who might be cut because she wants to play a sport that my daughter should not be allowed to try to make the team?
 
FutbolHeidiHo said:
Lurked forever but finally have to post. I have a transgender daughter, biologically male. She has started hormone treatments. She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play. We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past. she plays two sports with other girls. She fits in with other girls. Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her. It is youth sports. The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports. She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field. As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic. The other kids don't care. It is small minded parents who do.
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I appreciate your post. It is honest and expresses your reality. You seem like a good parent that is looking out for the welfare of their child. I personally have no issue with transgender kids playing in youth sports. The key is when you say "could keep an even playing field" in soccer we have age bands to keep players who are larger, faster and stronger in their own lane and to give everyone a fair chance. Your daughter having been born male has biological advantages over mine given the same birth year. There is such a variation in the kids it may not even be an issue but then again it may. We played against a Boise Thorns ECNL team that had a child similar to yours and none of our parents had an issue with it. She played well and wasn't all that different from the rest of the girls in size and speed. My DD, love her to death, is simply not good enough and will never be competing for scholarships or top teams. so we don't particularly care, play for fun but love the competition. You would be welcome on our team. I don't think most parents would have a problem with it unless she started to dominate games.

In writing this post I actually looked up the guidelines from our governing body. I can attach it if anyone wants to see it but it basically is an interview process. I don't think there is actual testing involved until the collegiate level. The youth athletic association wants to hear your story and will approve or deny based on what is said and the supporting medical documentation. The key phrase in the entire document is this:
"upon review of the above documentation, finds that the student’s request is appropriate and is not motivated by an improper purpose and there are no adverse health risks to the athlete, then a supportive recommendation shall be made by the committee to the AIA Executive Board for the athlete’s participation in sex-segregated activities consistent with the student’s gender identity."

That is really the crux of the argument "is not motivated by an improper purpose". Unless there are scholarships or advancement opportunities on the line.. you are right it is petty. However at the top levels the investment by parents and players is great and every advantage accounted for. Being born a male does give physiological advantages their kids don't have. You seem to simply want your child to play sports and that is noble but that does not mean others could not take unfair advantage.
 
tjinaz said:
I appreciate your post. It is honest and expresses your reality. You seem like a good parent that is looking out for the welfare of their child. I personally have no issue with transgender kids playing in youth sports. The key is when you say "could keep an even playing field" in soccer we have age bands to keep players who are larger, faster and stronger in their own lane and to give everyone a fair chance. Your daughter having been born male has biological advantages over mine given the same birth year. There is such a variation in the kids it may not even be an issue but then again it may. We played against a Boise Thorns ECNL team that had a child similar to yours and none of our parents had an issue with it. She played well and wasn't all that different from the rest of the girls in size and speed. My DD, love her to death, is simply not good enough and will never be competing for scholarships or top teams. so we don't particularly care, play for fun but love the competition. You would be welcome on our team. I don't think most parents would have a problem with it unless she started to dominate games.

In writing this post I actually looked up the guidelines from our governing body. I can attach it if anyone wants to see it but it basically is an interview process. I don't think there is actual testing involved until the collegiate level. The youth athletic association wants to hear your story and will approve or deny based on what is said and the supporting medical documentation. The key phrase in the entire document is this:
"upon review of the above documentation, finds that the student’s request is appropriate and is not motivated by an improper purpose and there are no adverse health risks to the athlete, then a supportive recommendation shall be made by the committee to the AIA Executive Board for the athlete’s participation in sex-segregated activities consistent with the student’s gender identity."

That is really the crux of the argument "is not motivated by an improper purpose". Unless there are scholarships or advancement opportunities on the line.. you are right it is petty. However at the top levels the investment by parents and players is great and every advantage accounted for. Being born a male does give physiological advantages their kids don't have. You seem to simply want your child to play sports and that is noble but that does not mean others could not take unfair advantage.
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Nice windup, but this is pure unadulterated fear mongering.
 
FutbolHeidiHo said:
What would you suggest is the best option for my daughter? if you are so worried about kids who might be cut because she wants to play a sport that my daughter should not be allowed to try to make the team?
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Oooof. Agree it isn't easy.

I am so worried about the other girl who does get cut in this situation. Trying to make the team isn't really a fair contest.

Your daughter has a larger rib cage, more height, and a different muscle chemistry than the cis-gender girls who are trying out.

That gap will grow as she gets older. And there isn't really a way to make it a fair contest. One girl had testosterone and the other did not.

If your daughter were a weaker athlete, then girls rec sports would be fine. No one loses.

If you lived in a more accepting area, then rec boys sports would be fine, for the same reason. It sounds like she tried it and that was not her experience. Which is sad.

So, no solutions from me. I don't know.

Same as you don't have any suggestions for the girl who got cut. She wanted to play, too. I don't know why sidelining her is supposed to be any better.
 
I’d be so bummed for my daughter to get cut or lose time to a biological male turned female.
Id also be so bummed for my transgendered child to be excluded from a team because of this issue.

I don’t have a perfect solution but what has led me to keep posting on this thread is the utter lack of empathy.

I know two families personally who have faced this and it’s been incredibly difficult. One is a sports family and the marriage didn’t make it and a spot on a competitive team was nowhere on the list of priorities. Should the local club have asked for documentation and doctors input that this was indeed an issue? Idk maybe? Or take an extra player on the team? Idk?

the kids on the team btw were all fine. Happy for the now girl to be a part of the team. They knew her as a boy and handled it amazingly.

it’s obviously more an issue as the sports get more competitive. Solutions are tough for sure.
 
dad4 said:
Oooof. Agree it isn't easy.

I am so worried about the other girl who does get cut in this situation. Trying to make the team isn't really a fair contest.

Your daughter has a larger rib cage, more height, and a different muscle chemistry than the cis-gender girls who are trying out.

That gap will grow as she gets older. And there isn't really a way to make it a fair contest. One girl had testosterone and the other did not.

If your daughter were a weaker athlete, then girls rec sports would be fine. No one loses.

If you lived in a more accepting area, then rec boys sports would be fine, for the same reason. It sounds like she tried it and that was not her experience. Which is sad.

So, no solutions from me. I don't know.

Same as you don't have any suggestions for the girl who got cut. She wanted to play, too. I don't know why sidelining her is supposed to be any better.
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High school sports have many roster spots, it feels like you are worried about something that doesn't exist. No one gets cut to make room for the transgender kid. It is just part of the evolution of society. our kids seem ok with it. We old people seem to struggle more and make excuses for how it can cause harm. As for club soccer, we pay for her club team. In my experience they take all who will pay to be on it ...she's certainly not hurting anyone there.

Soccer of all the sports is the best one for her to be in. Size really is not a factor in greatness. She doesn't have a nasty coach or nasty parents so isn't taking kids out. Yes, she is taller. So what? There are plenty of girls on the filed taller than she is. If she was using physical attributes to hurt other girls I would expect the refs and coaches to stop it. I only posted because I wish others could know none of this is a real issue. No one cares. These kids are being used by the media in a way that simply does not exist in the real world of youth sports.
 
FutbolHeidiHo said:
As for club soccer, we pay for her club team. In my experience they take all who will pay to be on it ...she's certainly not hurting anyone there.
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There are only a finite amount of spots on a team. Your kid being on a team takes a spot from a girl.

There are only so many spots on HS teams and not all the girls make the cut. If you kid get gets selected then a girl just lost a spot to a boy.

That is the reality.
 
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