"HANDBALL"

...So a player that benefits from a non-deliberate handball is now considered handling?...

Also what published guidance introduced the concept of "taking a risk" (ie slide tackle) for non-deliberate handballs? I've never seen that interpretation published or mentioned by refs, certainly nary a mention of it in 6 pages of this thread. That seems like a really important concept for players and coaches to be aware of.

I agree that such things should be put in writing, but you can't write down every circumstance. This presentation was, evidently, for FIFA referees. I'm sure they have some pretty solid documentation and instructions for players and referees, including releasing these presentations.

Like MWN says above, the 'taking a risk' concept is really only appropriate at older and/or higher level of skill play, where you can expect a player to know how to go to ground without making themselves bigger.

At none of the games I'm usually assigned to would I consider the sliding situations to be intentional.
 
I agree that such things should be put in writing, but you can't write down every circumstance. This presentation was, evidently, for FIFA referees. I'm sure they have some pretty solid documentation and instructions for players and referees, including releasing these presentations.

Like MWN says above, the 'taking a risk' concept is really only appropriate at older and/or higher level of skill play, where you can expect a player to know how to go to ground without making themselves bigger.

At none of the games I'm usually assigned to would I consider the sliding situations to be intentional.

Yes my main point is that I found it interesting that "taking a risk" was a factor that was presented with all the other factors that are traditionally mentioned in determining a handball. Obviously this is either a new and/or not well known factor based upon 1) the vast majority of refs in the video that felt the 2nd slide tackle handball example was not a foul 2) the very detailed explanations by refs in this thread never mention the "taking the risk" factor, nor have I ever heard a ref mention this factor until this video. And yes maybe this only applies to older players. Interesting nonetheless.

The presenter in the video is unequivocal that he couldn't care less whether the arm was in a "proper" position for a slide tackle or not. His exact works were "too bad, too bad". His justification was that an attacker who has done everything right should not be punished, and a defender should not benefit, from a slide tackle. He stated his primary basis for this is because a slide tackle is a last ditch effort (which in reality is not an absolute) and also mentions that he prefers attacking soccer. So in terms of handling, a slide tackle is an objective measure, as explained in the video. I actually think that would be a decent rule under the spirit of the game; however, in my layman's mind if its an objective measure it should be included in the rules. Wouldn't it be easier for refs, players and coaches to know exactly what the rule is to minimize controversy. It's a lot easier to explain that "it was a slide tackle" versus "well the defender should have done a standup tackle or his arms were a little wide for a properly executed slide tackle". I realize a Ref's judgment is sacred, but the LOTG are for everyone in the game.
 
Yes my main point is that I found it interesting that "taking a risk" was a factor that was presented with all the other factors that are traditionally mentioned in determining a handball. Obviously this is either a new and/or not well known factor based upon 1) the vast majority of refs in the video that felt the 2nd slide tackle handball example was not a foul 2) the very detailed explanations by refs in this thread never mention the "taking the risk" factor, nor have I ever heard a ref mention this factor until this video. And yes maybe this only applies to older players. Interesting nonetheless.

The presenter in the video is unequivocal that he couldn't care less whether the arm was in a "proper" position for a slide tackle or not. His exact works were "too bad, too bad". His justification was that an attacker who has done everything right should not be punished, and a defender should not benefit, from a slide tackle. He stated his primary basis for this is because a slide tackle is a last ditch effort (which in reality is not an absolute) and also mentions that he prefers attacking soccer. So in terms of handling, a slide tackle is an objective measure, as explained in the video. I actually think that would be a decent rule under the spirit of the game; however, in my layman's mind if its an objective measure it should be included in the rules. Wouldn't it be easier for refs, players and coaches to know exactly what the rule is to minimize controversy. It's a lot easier to explain that "it was a slide tackle" versus "well the defender should have done a standup tackle or his arms were a little wide for a properly executed slide tackle". I realize a Ref's judgment is sacred, but the LOTG are for everyone in the game.
Refs judgment is not sacred, look at ivr. This guy sounds a bit off, not sure why this was ever published as authoritative.
 
@watfly, not exactly. In this video, the trainer introduces a concept of "taking a risk," in order to determine the intent of the player. That's all. Because the Referee can only determine the intent of the player through circumstantial evidence, the trainer's advice is that we should give weight to taking an unusual risk (i.e. slide tackle in the box) in determining whether the player's handling of the ball was deliberate. Taking a risk doesn't overturn a determination of "unintentional." We already take into account whether the hands/arms are in an unnatural position (i.e. player making himself bigger) and the movement of hand to ball. The taking a risk concept is simply an extension of these considerations in that a player undertakes a risky move (red flag) that has an "intended" secondary effect of making the player bigger and increasing the chance of the ball hitting the players hand/arm through the use of his arms as part of the risky move. The trainer's advice is we should give great weight to the possibility that handling was intentional.

With regard to "youth" players the considerations are more liberal than high level pros. At the end of the day, handling requires a "deliberate" handling of the ball. The considerations of hand to ball, unnatural position, time to react, etc. are much more liberal when the player is 10 v 14 v 20 because the level of player must be taken into account in determining intent. My standard tightens up as we work from a 14 year old Rec v. 14 year old Flight 3 v. 14 year old USSDA.

Was the handling deliberate? Run through the considerations in .9542 seconds to figure it out.
I agree that such things should be put in writing, but you can't write down every circumstance. This presentation was, evidently, for FIFA referees. I'm sure they have some pretty solid documentation and instructions for players and referees, including releasing these presentations.

Like MWN says above, the 'taking a risk' concept is really only appropriate at older and/or higher level of skill play, where you can expect a player to know how to go to ground without making themselves bigger.

At none of the games I'm usually assigned to would I consider the sliding situations to be intentional.

So I was watching the EPL post game today and Clattenburg had this analysis regarding "handball" on a slide tackle (see starting around 2:00 ) . https://www.nbcsports.com/video/premier-league-ever-wonder-what-considered-handball.

His analysis was completely opposite of the video noted above by Esse Baharmast . Clattenburg states that it is perfectly normal for a player to have his arm fully extended on a slide tackle and that it is "not deliberate" and strongly and rhetorically states if the ball hits the outstretched arm of a slide tackle that "how can this ever be a penalty?" (as long as the hand is on the ground and not raised to block the ball)

Whereas Esse in his video (starting around 7:20) unequivocally states that a ball hitting the hand of slide tackler is a handball (or handling for the purist). Esse claims that its a handball because a slide tackle is a "last ditch effort" from a defender and that defender "has taken a risk" and that the a slide tackler has "taken away the benefit the attacker from the attacker that has done everything right". He goes further to say that referees are to promote attacking soccer and as far as the slide tackling defender is considered he says "too bad, too bad".

So what is the correct call (they are both referring to high level soccer)? Please spare me the long-winded answer that it depends, they are both referring to the exact same situations and are both unequivocal in their positions which are exactly opposite.
 
So I was watching the EPL post game today and Clattenburg had this analysis regarding "handball" on a slide tackle (see starting around 2:00 ) . https://www.nbcsports.com/video/premier-league-ever-wonder-what-considered-handball.

His analysis was completely opposite of the video noted above by Esse Baharmast . Clattenburg states that it is perfectly normal for a player to have his arm fully extended on a slide tackle and that it is "not deliberate" and strongly and rhetorically states if the ball hits the outstretched arm of a slide tackle that "how can this ever be a penalty?" (as long as the hand is on the ground and not raised to block the ball)

Whereas Esse in his video (starting around 7:20) unequivocally states that a ball hitting the hand of slide tackler is a handball (or handling for the purist). Esse claims that its a handball because a slide tackle is a "last ditch effort" from a defender and that defender "has taken a risk" and that the a slide tackler has "taken away the benefit the attacker from the attacker that has done everything right". He goes further to say that referees are to promote attacking soccer and as far as the slide tackling defender is considered he says "too bad, too bad".

So what is the correct call (they are both referring to high level soccer)? Please spare me the long-winded answer that it depends, they are both referring to the exact same situations and are both unequivocal in their positions which are exactly opposite.
The Baharmast interpretation is the USSF one.
 
So I was watching the EPL post game today and Clattenburg had this analysis regarding "handball" on a slide tackle (see starting around 2:00 ) . https://www.nbcsports.com/video/premier-league-ever-wonder-what-considered-handball.

His analysis was completely opposite of the video noted above by Esse Baharmast . Clattenburg states that it is perfectly normal for a player to have his arm fully extended on a slide tackle and that it is "not deliberate" and strongly and rhetorically states if the ball hits the outstretched arm of a slide tackle that "how can this ever be a penalty?" (as long as the hand is on the ground and not raised to block the ball)

Whereas Esse in his video (starting around 7:20) unequivocally states that a ball hitting the hand of slide tackler is a handball (or handling for the purist). Esse claims that its a handball because a slide tackle is a "last ditch effort" from a defender and that defender "has taken a risk" and that the a slide tackler has "taken away the benefit the attacker from the attacker that has done everything right". He goes further to say that referees are to promote attacking soccer and as far as the slide tackling defender is considered he says "too bad, too bad".

So what is the correct call (they are both referring to high level soccer)? Please spare me the long-winded answer that it depends, they are both referring to the exact same situations and are both unequivocal in their positions which are exactly opposite.

So whether it is called handling or not depends on which referee is involved, which I have known for over 30 years.
 
Parents, sure. But referees? Perhaps a few. But many? Where?
Those referees that you refer too are not the vast majority. They are the ones that do not attend the monthly training or even open the LOTG book to study. The vast majority of these refs tend to be lazy and do not know how to apply the LOTG. Any decent ref knows the criteria for Handling unlike the large number of parents that are constantly yelling "handball."
Maybe I am just being naive. But it feels like a vast majority of refs call the non deliberate, but advantageous, ball to hands as handling. Maybe the minority of refs that call it just stick out in my mind more. But it feels like that isnt the case.

The number of new referees that I try to explain handling to and they always seem either confused or desperate for clarification. Its like they hear something different every week. I remember being new. It took me like 2 years to finally peg down the proper handling criteria.

Furthermore You would think after a 100 games with a "majority" of refs calling it close to properly, you would think the parents and players would eventually get the picture that handball has to be deliberate. But they still yell all entitled-like whenever a ball brushes an arm as though every other ref has been calling it like that all season. Or maybe they just believe that every ref is just blind and if all 100 of them were blessed with the super parent vision then the ref would concur.

It feels like only the top 10% of refs call handling properly. (An assignor once told me that 10% of the ref pool does 50% of the games). And maybe since you are in that 10% you are surrounded by refs that know the rules. But I dont think its that common.
 
Maybe I am just being naive. But it feels like a vast majority of refs call the non deliberate, but advantageous, ball to hands as handling. Maybe the minority of refs that call it just stick out in my mind more. But it feels like that isn't the case.

I feel the same way, and in fact mentioned that earlier in this thread, but was given a yellow card for using the term "vast majority". I guess the question of whether handling is called "properly" is in the eye of beholder. When two professional refs as well regarded as Baharmast and Clattenburg have complete opposite opinions on what is handling in a very specific circumstance than how can we expect weekend warrior refs to know what the "proper" interpretation is? Even Baharmast in his USSF training video uses the concept of gaining a benefit as justification for calling handling on a non-deliberate handball.
 
When two professional refs as well regarded as Baharmast and Clattenburg have complete opposite opinions on what is handling in a very specific circumstance than how can we expect weekend warrior refs to know what the "proper" interpretation is?
Referees of teenage competitive soccer matches should make zero mistakes, and study EPL referee training videos and guidance daily. If they call a touchline a sideline, or the area a box, or impeding obstruction, they must be fined $10,000, and suspended for 5 years.
 
Referees of teenage competitive soccer matches should make zero mistakes, and study EPL referee training videos and guidance daily. If they call a touchline a sideline, or the area a box, or impeding obstruction, they must be fined $10,000, and suspended for 5 years.

Wading through your hyperbole, if you think that I'm saying that refs should be judged more harshly you obviously skipped over my prior sentence. What I'm saying is refs should be given way more latitude because there is not even consensus among the referee community on what the "proper" interpretation is in certain limited circumstances. Bharmast/Clattenburg is an example of this as, as are the differing opinions from refs on this forum. I see a refs on this forum adamantly claim that their interpretation is correct over another ref's opinion, when in reality they both may have a good faith basis for their opinion and it's possible they're both "correct". If you ignore the drama and the name calling, I've found this forum to be very informative.

I'll I care about is that the ref...and the coach and the player, put in the effort. Mistakes happen, that's to be expected, but mistakes are less frequent when a good effort is put forward.
 
Wading through your hyperbole, if you think that I'm saying that refs should be judged more harshly you obviously skipped over my prior sentence. What I'm saying is refs should be given way more latitude because there is not even consensus among the referee community on what the "proper" interpretation is in certain limited circumstances. Bharmast/Clattenburg is an example of this as, as are the differing opinions from refs on this forum. I see a refs on this forum adamantly claim that their interpretation is correct over another ref's opinion, when in reality they both may have a good faith basis for their opinion and it's possible they're both "correct". If you ignore the drama and the name calling, I've found this forum to be very informative.

I'll I care about is that the ref...and the coach and the player, put in the effort. Mistakes happen, that's to be expected, but mistakes are less frequent when a good effort is put forward.
Wading aside, I was agreeing with you: "how can we expect weekend warrior refs to know what the "proper" interpretation is?" And making fun of those that debate the minutiae of differing interpretations as fact, and that youth soccer referees should be measured by the standards of professionals at the highest levels (who themselves make copious mistakes.)
 
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