Girl's Dad to Youth Referee, "I'll give you one word of advice..."

[Lee Robert]

Watch this clip:

608K views · 2.2K reactions | This 2012 Girls ECNL dad or coach is a disgrace. 12-0 loss for his girls' team in College Station, Texas. Lots of children there, including the ref crew, uncomfortable and unsure of how to react. Turn up the volume and

This 2012 Girls ECNL dad or coach is a disgrace. 12-0 loss for his girls' team in College Station, Texas. Lots of children there, including the ref crew, uncomfortable and unsure of how to react....

www.facebook.com

Let's say the referee did say or do something that would be considered Misconduct by a Referee. This dad, whether justified or not, accomplished the precise opposite of what is needed. Instead of reporting the referee, he threatened the referee, made it on to social media where most people find his action disgraceful. Had he reported the referee, there would have been an opportunity for the referee to be corrected. Now the referee will either quit or decide that "all parents are crazy, complainers, sore losers,..."

From US Soccer Policy 531-10 | Misconduct of Game Officials ("of" in this policy is "by")
(A) When any game official is accused of having committed misconduct toward another game official, participant, or spectator at a match,..., the original jurisdiction to adjudicate the matter shall vest immediately in the State Association or Organization Member through which the accused game official is registered.

(C) Any allegation of misconduct... by a game official..., or of unethical conduct, misuse or abuse of authority..., shall be made in writing to the State Referee Administrator or to the State Association(s) or Organization Member....

Now, you may say nothing will happen, well this past week we received such a report. The referee was immediately suspended until the hearing, at which time the penalty will be determined; the referee will have the right to an appeal. This is the exact same procedure for Abuse of a Referee.

SOLUTION:

• Please do not complain, dissent, threaten referees before, during or after a game, especially youth refs.
• If the referee is accused of Misconduct, report it.
• If you are unhappy with performance of the referee, inform your coach, manager, or DOC. The DOC has the option of contacting the Referee Assignor or the State Referee Committee.

 

[sigmabody]

I'm confused by a few points above; perhaps you can clarify.

You say the ref suspension/appeal process is the same as it would be for accusations of abuse, but parents have been told explicitly that if an official feels you dissented, the parent can be carded, and the parent (and possibly the kid) will be suspended for some period of time (per SoCal league rules). There's no mention of, or reference to, any hearing or appeal process in that direction. Does this means there is no hearing or appeal process for the official, or do you mean something else by "exact same procedure for Abuse of a Referee".

When you say inform your coach or manager, what do you think they are able to do? I can't speak for the DOC, but I can tell you there's no general mechanism for a team manager to report anything re referee performance and/or bias, and I believe that's the same for coaches. Similarly, the messaging from our club is do not saying anything, no matter how overtly terrible the calls are (and implicitly: just teach the kids that the refs are sometimes just biased and/or terrible, and US Soccer had decided to just punish anyone who complains about it).

I'm willing to take your word that there are some official channels somewhere which might, in some small number of cases nation-wide, result in some improvements in officiating (and/or maybe punitive action for the most egregious cases). I'm just not aware of them, and they are certainly not publicized well. The above feels like a bit of a hedge against the near-ubiquitous observation that the new abuse rules are entirely one-sided, but it doesn't seem overly convincing on first read, fwiw.

Related aside: I'm starting to see cards for kids who say things about calls on the field, so the new policy is certainly ramping up. We had a player say something like "that's a terrible call" to himself (after a bad call, which of course happens), and pick up a yellow cause the ref heard it, and there have been a few cards issued to that effect in the last couple of weeks. Players are going to have to adjust to keep their disgust and frustration from being vocalized, at least on the field.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

The real-world answer is to develop a relationship with the handful of ref assignors in the area. Usually they cover multiple clubs, so in a place as large as the bay area - it's really only a handful of people. When a ref is "terrible", for whatever reason, you call the assignor and let them know the ref is terrible, and ask them what they can do so the ref doesn't show up at another one of your games. Usually that's all it ever takes. Sometimes they are interested in video showing what you mean. The assignor doesn't want to put terrible refs in front of teams that they've already embarrassed themselves at - it's easier and less stress for them not to.

 

[Lee Robert]

I'm confused by a few points above; perhaps you can clarify.

You say the ref suspension/appeal process is the same as it would be for accusations of abuse, but parents have been told explicitly that if an official feels you dissented, the parent can be carded, and the parent (and possibly the kid) will be suspended for some period of time (per SoCal league rules). There's no mention of, or reference to, any hearing or appeal process in that direction. Does this means there is no hearing or appeal process for the official, or do you mean something else by "exact same procedure for Abuse of a Referee".

When you say inform your coach or manager, what do you think they are able to do? I can't speak for the DOC, but I can tell you there's no general mechanism for a team manager to report anything re referee performance and/or bias, and I believe that's the same for coaches. Similarly, the messaging from our club is do not saying anything, no matter how overtly terrible the calls are (and implicitly: just teach the kids that the refs are sometimes just biased and/or terrible, and US Soccer had decided to just punish anyone who complains about it).

I'm willing to take your word that there are some official channels somewhere which might, in some small number of cases nation-wide, result in some improvements in officiating (and/or maybe punitive action for the most egregious cases). I'm just not aware of them, and they are certainly not publicized well. The above feels like a bit of a hedge against the near-ubiquitous observation that the new abuse rules are entirely one-sided, but it doesn't seem overly convincing on first read, fwiw.

Related aside: I'm starting to see cards for kids who say things about calls on the field, so the new policy is certainly ramping up. We had a player say something like "that's a terrible call" to himself (after a bad call, which of course happens), and pick up a yellow cause the ref heard it, and there have been a few cards issued to that effect in the last couple of weeks. Players are going to have to adjust to keep their disgust and frustration from being vocalized, at least on the field.

Read US Policy 531-9 and Misconduct Toward Game Officials 531-10 Misconduct of Game Officials, both include the reporting, penalties and appeals: https://ussoccer.app.box.com/s/d17mtf22sltr4k8r7513970c13almooo

We have held webinars for the referees, leagues, and the entire Southern CA soccer community. You can find information at this link, included is the recorded webinar and the presentation: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsdRbR1IqWLh9oJtN9SWalIcVwtAyegJ?usp=drive_link

Once you are done looking this over, please take the survey, it asks for advice from the soccer community: https://forms.gle/F4ogKgkuC9pvGVRK8

Some day a player, parent or coach from your team or club will be a referee. How should they be treated?

 

[Lee Robert]

The real-world answer is to develop a relationship with the handful of ref assignors in the area. Usually they cover multiple clubs, so in a place as large as the bay area - it's really only a handful of people. When a ref is "terrible", for whatever reason, you call the assignor and let them know the ref is terrible, and ask them what they can do so the ref doesn't show up at another one of your games. Usually that's all it ever takes. Sometimes they are interested in video showing what you mean. The assignor doesn't want to put terrible refs in front of teams that they've already embarrassed themselves at - it's easier and less stress for them not to.

thanks, I agree with you, assignors want to schedule the correct referees. At this moment in time we have a referee shortage and assignors are lucky to assign all their games and slots.

In Southern CA we have a process. Parent, Player, Spectator > Coach > Director of Coaches > Assignor or State Referee Director of Assessments.

 

[sigmabody]

Some day a player, parent or coach from your team or club will be a referee. How should they be treated?

I was a FIFA certified referee for ~10 years growing up (mostly as a teenager), so I'm familiar with the other side of the issue already, personally.

The best approach I found (while officiating AYSO games; admittedly not as competitive as club matches) was to communicate directly with coaches when there were aggressive questions about calls, and/or significant issues with spectator harassment. I found that spending 30 seconds on the sideline in a constructive conversation, which might include reminders that I can only call based on what I see, usually worked vastly better than escalating confrontation (with cards, etc.) which might impact players or coaches in future matches. It turned out that most people basically just wanted to be heard, and all coaches (in my recollection) were helpful partners in resolving spectator and/or player abuse, as long as I was not just ignoring their concerns and just carding them confrontationally.

That said, I don't know if that would work as well at the club level; coaches and officials seem to be less collaborative at this level, and more de facto confrontational, at least in some cases.

Fwiw, I certainly took a good amount of verbal abuse in my time as an official. It doesn't bother me too much, but I wouldn't want to see that escalate certainly. I don't personally see much issue with people/players griping about calls, as long as the confrontations do not escalate (and I would accept more complaints for less escalation), but that's just my opinion, and as noted is the opposite of the direction that US Soccer is moving in. I think call complaints and frustrations are distinct from actual referee abuse, though; I would tolerate the former, but not the latter.

 

[sigmabody]

Also, related to the original video: it's hard to make a judgement without context, but it sounds like the parent had an issue with something the teenager said to his daughter directly, unrelated to the game calls or context. While he (and his daughter) could be punished by US Soccer under the new rules, since the person he was talking at was an referee, my guess purely based on the interaction would be that he made a lewd comment, the father was upset about it, and he waited until after the game to voice his frustration. Also, the teenage boy didn't seem overly shocked at or bothered by the accusation either, so maybe not an isolated incident either.

Again, though: lots of speculation, and hard for me to make a judgement without context there, but that was my reaction/take.

 

[TopesWin]

thanks, I agree with you, assignors want to schedule the correct referees. At this moment in time we have a referee shortage and assignors are lucky to assign all their games and slots.

In Southern CA we have a process. Parent, Player, Spectator > Coach > Director of Coaches > Assignor or State Referee Director of Assessments.

He specializes in imagining extreme examples and then extrapolating horrible situations that he claims will result. He has no interest in actually understanding the rule or seeing it implemented. He wants to be right and to prove everyone in power is wrong, because there's no one else who is as smart as him. He is one of the WORST people you could ever meet at dispute resolution, and his preposterous vignettes about "talking it out" with the complaining parents/coaches are the exact opposite of what really happens when he "has a discussion" about ref calls.

 

[Orangeteam]

Sounds like the Classic Elite DOC didn't review the new rules with the parents.
That's pretty sad.

 

[soccermax2]

Watch this clip:

608K views · 2.2K reactions | This 2012 Girls ECNL dad or coach is a disgrace. 12-0 loss for his girls' team in College Station, Texas. Lots of children there, including the ref crew, uncomfortable and unsure of how to react. Turn up the volume and

This 2012 Girls ECNL dad or coach is a disgrace. 12-0 loss for his girls' team in College Station, Texas. Lots of children there, including the ref crew, uncomfortable and unsure of how to react....

www.facebook.com

Let's say the referee did say or do something that would be considered Misconduct by a Referee. This dad, whether justified or not, accomplished the precise opposite of what is needed. Instead of reporting the referee, he threatened the referee, made it on to social media where most people find his action disgraceful. Had he reported the referee, there would have been an opportunity for the referee to be corrected. Now the referee will either quit or decide that "all parents are crazy, complainers, sore losers,..."

From US Soccer Policy 531-10 | Misconduct of Game Officials ("of" in this policy is "by")
(A) When any game official is accused of having committed misconduct toward another game official, participant, or spectator at a match,..., the original jurisdiction to adjudicate the matter shall vest immediately in the State Association or Organization Member through which the accused game official is registered.

(C) Any allegation of misconduct... by a game official..., or of unethical conduct, misuse or abuse of authority..., shall be made in writing to the State Referee Administrator or to the State Association(s) or Organization Member....

Now, you may say nothing will happen, well this past week we received such a report. The referee was immediately suspended until the hearing, at which time the penalty will be determined; the referee will have the right to an appeal. This is the exact same procedure for Abuse of a Referee.

SOLUTION:

• Please do not complain, dissent, threaten referees before, during or after a game, especially youth refs.
• If the referee is accused of Misconduct, report it.
• If you are unhappy with performance of the referee, inform your coach, manager, or DOC. The DOC has the option of contacting the Referee Assignor or the State Referee Committee.

depends on what he said to his daughter, sorry but there needs to be more context. Maybe he did report him as well?

If he made a lewd comment, cussed at his daughter etc., no I do not find him disgraceful.

 

[Lee Robert]

Watch this and you will have a better understanding how new referees are trained in other states

12K views · 962 reactions | We do the best we can with the time we have. To take someone with zero experience and turn them into a great Referee in one day it’s just simply not realistic. All We do the best we can with the time we have allowed. To ta

We do the best we can with the time we have. To take someone with zero experience and turn them into a great Referee in one day it’s just simply not realistic. All We do the best we can with the time...

www.facebook.com

 

[soccermax2]

Watch this and you will have a better understanding how new referees are trained in other states

12K views · 962 reactions | We do the best we can with the time we have. To take someone with zero experience and turn them into a great Referee in one day it’s just simply not realistic. All We do the best we can with the time we have allowed. To ta

We do the best we can with the time we have. To take someone with zero experience and turn them into a great Referee in one day it’s just simply not realistic. All We do the best we can with the time...

www.facebook.com

If that parent behaved that way over a bad call, then that’s just dumb. But the way that father was acting looked like it was in response to something said inappropriately to his daughter. If that’s the case, then no I don’t blame him. And that kid shouldn’t be a ref and has nothing to do with the little amount of training that was given.

Just not enough context for me

 

[soccermom74]

Also, related to the original video: it's hard to make a judgement without context, but it sounds like the parent had an issue with something the teenager said to his daughter directly, unrelated to the game calls or context. While he (and his daughter) could be punished by US Soccer under the new rules, since the person he was talking at was an referee, my guess purely based on the interaction would be that he made a lewd comment, the father was upset about it, and he waited until after the game to voice his frustration. Also, the teenage boy didn't seem overly shocked at or bothered by the accusation either, so maybe not an isolated incident either.

Again, though: lots of speculation, and hard for me to make a judgement without context there, but that was my reaction/take.

Really, you are going to speculate that he made a lewd comment to an 11-year-old? That seems to be a pretty big leap. No doubt he spoke to her on the field, but going directly to a lewd comment is a pretty big assumption.

 

[Lee Robert]

Everybody agrees that referees should not be abused. They should not be threatened, struck, called names or anything else. Even when they miss calls.

The problem with the new rule is that it gives referees too much authority and no responsibility. The way the rules are written, which have been described in other strings on this board, a player or coach can be red-carded for just about anything a referee doesn't like, including "insinuating" dissent by a non-verbal gesture. So, for example, a player or coach can be red-carded for silently rolling his eyes at a referee's decision. Is that likely to happen? Probably not. But there are a (very few) referees out there who are complete jackasses, and some of them will use their newly-granted authority in the most egregious ways.

Lee Robert says - and he's right - that the correct thing to do is to contact the State Referee Administrator. But here is the problem in California. The State Referee Administrator will do nothing. I know this for a fact. I have previously filed - and literally nothing is done. No response from the Association. No notice of any hearing. No notice of any action. Nothing but silence.

I recently contacted the California State Administrator via email - you can find it on the Calsouth site - and specifically asked what the process was to report a referee's improper conduct. You can guess what the response was ... silence. I will never hear from him. And if you ask for information, you will never hear from him either.

The bottom line is this. Referees have tremendous authority, but no responsibility and no real oversight. And if you are a coach, player or parent, you have no rights.

CAM #27, to date we have received very few Abuse reports, having gone through most the summer tournament season, that is pretty amazing.

We have had one referee suspended, so the process does work, if you follow it. Spectator > Coach > Director of Coaches > Assignor and/or SRA. I have included 531-10 reporting a Referee for Misconduct in another post. That is precisely what occurred earlier this week and suspension immediately handed out.

Suggest you watch the recorded webinar and take advantage of the resources provided here : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsdRbR1IqWLh9oJtN9SWalIcVwtAyegJ?usp=sharing

 

[Lee Robert]

Everybody agrees that referees should not be abused. They should not be threatened, struck, called names or anything else. Even when they miss calls.

The problem with the new rule is that it gives referees too much authority and no responsibility. The way the rules are written, which have been described in other strings on this board, a player or coach can be red-carded for just about anything a referee doesn't like, including "insinuating" dissent by a non-verbal gesture. So, for example, a player or coach can be red-carded for silently rolling his eyes at a referee's decision. Is that likely to happen? Probably not. But there are a (very few) referees out there who are complete jackasses, and some of them will use their newly-granted authority in the most egregious ways.

Lee Robert says - and he's right - that the correct thing to do is to contact the State Referee Administrator. But here is the problem in California. The State Referee Administrator will do nothing. I know this for a fact. I have previously filed - and literally nothing is done. No response from the Association. No notice of any hearing. No notice of any action. Nothing but silence.

I recently contacted the California State Administrator via email - you can find it on the Calsouth site - and specifically asked what the process was to report a referee's improper conduct. You can guess what the response was ... silence. I will never hear from him. And if you ask for information, you will never hear from him either.

The bottom line is this. Referees have tremendous authority, but no responsibility and no real oversight. And if you are a coach, player or parent, you have no rights.

You can also contact the Protest, Appeals and Disciplinary (PAD) chair, contact info on www.calsouth.com.
If you do not receive a response let me know

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

We have had one referee suspended, so the process does work, if you follow it. Spectator > Coach > Director of Coaches > Assignor and/or SRA.

Yes - but don't overlook the tediousness that it has to go through, if you're a parent that's upset enough to want to actually go through the formal process. You need to convince the coach to file a report, and they are prone to say "screw it, I'm not going through the trouble, it's not worth it". They need to decide to convince their DOC to file a report, and they are prone to say "screw it, I'm not going through the trouble, it's not worth it". And the DOC has to then convince the assignor and/or SRA that there's an issue.

Sheer inertia and/or skepticism in the process means very few complaints will ever get from a parent to the SRA. It doesn't matter if they deal with them properly or swiftly once they arrive. Maybe that's by design, maybe not.

It's always going to be quicker to contact the assignors informally out of band.

 

[sigmabody]

Really, you are going to speculate that he made a lewd comment to an 11-year-old? That seems to be a pretty big leap. No doubt he spoke to her on the field, but going directly to a lewd comment is a pretty big assumption.

It's purely speculative, as noted. I'd speculate that if it had something to do with a call on the field, he would likely not have complained about specifically talking to his daughter. It could certainly have also been some direct insult also, but judging by the reaction, I suspect it was something more significant and disturbing than just an insult. He's pretty clearly intimating that his anger is in relation to comments directed at his daughter specifically, though, of significance enough to prompt anger, and probably not something related to the officiating.

... which, as an aside, makes linking it here and associating it was referee abuse somewhat ironic, but also very telling, in relation to the observation that the new rules give officials significantly more leeway to abuse their authority without consequence. I'd grant that the parent was in the wrong here (in the manner of talking to the teenager), but if he's punished by US Soccer for referee abuse based on the interaction (as intimated that he should be in the OP), then this would likely be an example of an abuse of the new policy also, as feared by many people in the soccer community.

 

[Grace T.]

It's purely speculative, as noted. I'd speculate that if it had something to do with a call on the field, he would likely not have complained about specifically talking to his daughter. It could certainly have also been some direct insult also, but judging by the reaction, I suspect it was something more significant and disturbing than just an insult. He's pretty clearly intimating that his anger is in relation to comments directed at his daughter specifically, though, of significance enough to prompt anger, and probably not something related to the officiating.

... which, as an aside, makes linking it here and associating it was referee abuse somewhat ironic, but also very telling, in relation to the observation that the new rules give officials significantly more leeway to abuse their authority without consequence. I'd grant that the parent was in the wrong here (in the manner of talking to the teenager), but if he's punished by US Soccer for referee abuse based on the interaction (as intimated that he should be in the OP), then this would likely be an example of an abuse of the new policy also, as feared by many people in the soccer community.

Bear in mind teenage boys have very underdeveloped frontal cortex’s, do a bunch of stupid stuff, and when confronted are unlikely to defend themselves (it’s not an admission of guilt to be silent…unlike an adult man they don’t have the confidence or speed of thought how to determine how to react esp since the rules with adults can be nebulous as you can see with any teen boy who has struggled whether to call someone Mr or by their first name). Not saying the ref should be excused from punishment from misconduct. But that stuff like this should be expected if we allow teens to ref. The choice is not to permit them to ref (but hey shortage issue) or you have to keep that wall in place that prevents the adult from taking matters into their own hand. Even if you think the ref review needs to be enhanced, the system will always end with a lifetime ban on the father for this and likely punishment for the player

 

[Grace T.]

Yes - but don't overlook the tediousness that it has to go through, if you're a parent that's upset enough to want to actually go through the formal process. You need to convince the coach to file a report, and they are prone to say "screw it, I'm not going through the trouble, it's not worth it". They need to decide to convince their DOC to file a report, and they are prone to say "screw it, I'm not going through the trouble, it's not worth it". And the DOC has to then convince the assignor and/or SRA that there's an issue.

Sheer inertia and/or skepticism in the process means very few complaints will ever get from a parent to the SRA. It doesn't matter if they deal with them properly or swiftly once they arrive. Maybe that's by design, maybe not.

It's always going to be quicker to contact the assignors informally out of band.

This. The incentives are going to be to do nothing. The manager doesn’t want to make waves for their kid, already has an unpaid job, and may be doing that job poorly. The coach isn’t paid for his time managing this, doesn’t want to get on the wrong side of the doc, or get a reputation among refs that will have more bias thrown their way (while your kid is just a number). The doc already has way too much to do and the politics with league placement are already precarious (no one wants to be the next SoCal elite which the stakes are the club risks being done). The ref assignor/supervisor has a problem with even fulfilling the demand for games already and needs every body (I saw a stat SoCal is at 60% of anticipated amount needed for this fall) not to mention if everyone starts making this complaints that’s all they will be doing because every idiot will come out of the woodwork and complain about something silly like an offside call or a ref implementing the 8 second rule on the gk the last seconds of the championship match.

I keep coming back to the idea that the only fix to this is to pay the refs and admins a lot more money (which means league fees go way up which means club soccer becomes more inaccessible for working class kids). The ref shortage btw had gotten worse the last 3 years and it’s not just all due to mistreatment: the minimum wage increase means other competing opportunities, the shift in reporting means no more tax free cash, the crackdown on migrants, the enhanced time such as in training it takes which is not compensated, the shifting population as the boomers retire and xers become old.

 

[TopesWin]

This. The incentives are going to be to do nothing. The manager doesn’t want to make waves for their kid, already has an unpaid job, and may be doing that job poorly. The coach isn’t paid for his time managing this, doesn’t want to get on the wrong side of the doc, or get a reputation among refs that will have more bias thrown their way (while your kid is just a number). The doc already has way too much to do and the politics with league placement are already precarious (no one wants to be the next SoCal elite which the stakes are the club risks being done). The ref assignor/supervisor has a problem with even fulfilling the demand for games already and needs every body (I saw a stat SoCal is at 60% of anticipated amount needed for this fall) not to mention if everyone starts making this complaints that’s all they will be doing because every idiot will come out of the woodwork and complain about something silly like an offside call or a ref implementing the 8 second rule on the gk the last seconds of the championship match.

I keep coming back to the idea that the only fix to this is to pay the refs and admins a lot more money (which means league fees go way up which means club soccer becomes more inaccessible for working class kids). The ref shortage btw had gotten worse the last 3 years and it’s not just all due to mistreatment: the minimum wage increase means other competing opportunities, the shift in reporting means no more tax free cash, the crackdown on migrants, the enhanced time such as in training it takes which is not compensated, the shifting population as the boomers retire and xers become old.

Ref pay needs to increase substantially, for sure. But the #1 solution is: parents shut the fuck up or get banned.

 

[Grace T.]

Ref pay needs to increase substantially, for sure. But the #1 solution is: parents shut the fuck up or get banned.

As sigmabody pointed out that’s never going to work without addressing the underlying causes for what’s happening. The only thing that’s going to happening is some idiots are going to escalate it, and some innocent kids are going to be punished, and the entire youth soccer system will continue to collapse under its own weight. It won’t accomplish the ends it seeks to accomplish. It’s an old refrain that keeps popping up but you can’t make public policy by hoping people act the way they should. That just creates a bunch of bad externalities. You have to meet them where they are so the all stick no carrot policy is ultimately doomed to fail. You need the stick but it won’t fix things without a broader solution.

The end result is if the numbers are right and do t go unchanged (say a recession that really raises unemployment figures) by next year we’re going to start seeing some significant effects like no shows on the fields and games not played. The only thing that has prevented a collapse has been the declining participation numbers and league consolidations.