But, the only one they say needs to change is USYS (policy). There was nothing directed at the teams in that statement.
The fix would be to make each game a knockout game. Still, get way ahead and players can back off.
Game fixing
- Thread starter Eagle33
- Start date
The fix would be to make each game a knockout game. Still, get way ahead and players can back off.
texanincali
SILVER ELITE
Let's play this game.
USYSA implements a new rule. That new rule states that "if two teams are guaranteed to meet in the finals (or advance to the next round) and are scheduled to play in the final group game, then both teams may agree to NOT play the final group game."
Question for you...would the game we have been discussing still have to be played or not?
This exact scenario happened in the final group game in the U13 girls. SoCal Blues and Solar were both guaranteed spots in the final. What did they do? They played the game, utilizing players that hadn't seen much time, in the blazing Texas heat...and they were 12 and 13 year old girls.
The young ones can handle it, but the big girls can't.
You have tuned this entire debate into a joke.
WUM = Wind Up Merchant or someone who takes opposing sides to a debate just for fun - no matter how ridiculous their stance is.
USYSA implements a new rule. That new rule states that "if two teams are guaranteed to meet in the finals (or advance to the next round) and are scheduled to play in the final group game, then both teams may agree to NOT play the final group game."
Question for you...would the game we have been discussing still have to be played or not?
This exact scenario happened in the final group game in the U13 girls. SoCal Blues and Solar were both guaranteed spots in the final. What did they do? They played the game, utilizing players that hadn't seen much time, in the blazing Texas heat...and they were 12 and 13 year old girls.
The young ones can handle it, but the big girls can't.
You have tuned this entire debate into a joke.
WUM = Wind Up Merchant or someone who takes opposing sides to a debate just for fun - no matter how ridiculous their stance is.
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Nothing directed towards the teams? Ok, I'll bite again. According to the USYS statement,
"we believe the strategy of the coaches in this game failed their players, the competition and the principles of sportsmanship and fair play".
That was one line above what I previously quoted. Pretty darn clear what USYS thinks of their play.
The teams have to do whatever the rules are to win the hardware. If those were the new rules - and those teams were guaranteed to be in the finals, then no.
But you said the two teams we are discussing. Both were not in that situation, which is why only one made it to the finals.
WUM - I enjoy a discussion and I try to answer. My "side" has been for the near decade I've been on this site that teams should play to win and use the rules and the laws. I officiated for a decade too - started adult and did U8 and in between. Games are officiated differently by age and/or skill. If this happened in an AYSO U10 - I'd stop the game. AYSO is rec. This was a piece on the way to the National Finals.
To me the part that is a tell that posters are parents of players, not at the G18 finalist level, is the moralization of actions totally within the rules.
Wrong things would be purposely - falsifying information, using ineligible players, hurting others, which are regular occurrences. Equating not playing hard enough to right and wrong is a stretch for me.
It may be hard / not fun to watch, but a stretch to attach player or coach character to. Both my kids had to and have to balance, as I expect yours do. That means sometimes they do not try their hardest. If my son had a guaranteed A in a class he might not do an assignment, and do something else.
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My response was to the quote. You can tell because I said "in that statement."
Meaning the one you wrote and I quoted.
My original opinion on page early was there was nothing that would be done to those teams. I gave the opinion it was not nice to watch and my wife didn't like it.
I also asked a few times what should be done about it and under what grounds.
So far nobody has responded to that. USYS isn't doing anything to the teams that I have heard about. If they do, it is just not what I expected. I doubt anything will happen as there are no grounds for it (that I am aware of).
Eagle33
PREMIER
You are absolutely right. From Laws of the game standpoint, nothing was done wrong in this game. There is nothing anyone can do about it, except changing Laws or Bylaws of the competition in the future.
However the discussion is not about that, it's about moral side of the story and coaches who allowed this to happen.
That may very well be the funniest thing you have ever posted. Thanks!
jrcaesar
SILVER ELITE
^^^ Yes, this! ^^^^^
There are heat policies on the USYS site that acknowledge the heat danger of activities. Why, in a complex with 12+ fields, are games being scheduled in groups of five at 1:30 pm?
Mystery Train
GOLD
I'll give you my answer.
I was appalled by the video clip and was quick to react to the image of two teams standing in place and tapping a ball to each other for two minutes. Reading GKdad's first hand account which stated that the game started out with some probing attacks and runs and then devolved into what was shown on the clip when both teams realized there was going to be no pressure put in their defensive half, softened me a bit. We all can be guilty of overreacting to 90 seconds of video out of context. But even if the entire game was "played" like the video clip, I don't think USYS should take aggressive action or sanction/suspend people over it because, as you said, no rules were broken. Sanctioning and suspending for violating the "spirit" of the game is not something an administrative body wants to get into. So you're right . . . in a lawyerly kind of way (sounds like that may even be your line of work, no?), but that doesn't mean that we can't all learn from this and make it a teachable moment. It was a terrible look for both coaches, at the very least. I think most of us would not have been really proud to walk off the field that day if we had been participants. My reaction to the video was not a legal/rules disagreement, but rather feeling like the coaches robbed their players of the dignity that every competitor feels when they walk off the field having given their all to the game win or lose. It ceases to be a "game" when there is no risk involved. And games are supposed to be fun. That goes for every level of sport all the way to professional. If there is no risk, there is no game, if it isn't a game, what is the damn point? A trophy for the sake of a trophy? I think the coaches involved could benefit from some soul-searching. In retrospect, could they have achieved their goal and still honored the spirit of the game? I think so, because I've seen other coaches do it. My daughter's coach did it and many of the posters here have told stories where their team was in a similar situation and a competitive game was still held. Nobody needs to be drawn and quartered over this, but I wouldn't have been proud to be a part of that spectacle. And I don't think anyone should bash the kids over this. They aren't to blame.
LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad
BRONZE
Honestly, I think that's a pretty fair assessment and summation. I think all of the coaches involved, if presented with the exact same scenario again, would probably handle it differently such that the optics would appear less offensive. The ultimate outcome would be no different (in terms of which teams went through or not), but the game might look more like a game. I'm still not convinced it would change the reaction from Syracuse that somehow seemed to think Carlsbad owed something to them and to the spirit of the game to do their best to help them by beating Ambassadors by the 4 goals they needed.
As for how people "felt" during and after the game, that's hard to answer. Any natural feelings the players and parents may have had during and after about how the game was played were quickly replaced by a feeling of absolute disgust from the behavior of Syracuse when they descended upon our game with their repulsiveness. When the game ended, our direction and concern was to get the girls onto their vans as fast as possible and with escorts from tournament security and parents to protect them from any verbal assaults (or worse) that Syracuse directed at them. Honestly, their reaction took over any thought or memory anyone had regarding that game. It further made it pretty easy for no one to feel any remorse or regret about the game, because, "F-you, Syracuse, you are all a bunch of dicks and you just proved it. Enjoy your flight home."
Thank you for your answer.
Note that you are not one saying anything should be done, so respectfully you are not the poster I was looking to respond to the question. I was looking for someone that had an action in mind and I wanted to hear how they would justify it. Your answer was in the end the same as mine. There is nothing to do.
I would, as USYS look at the rules that allow this (games that do not require a winner to advance - aka pool play) and determine if it is worth changing them.
But some here think this is a morality/right/wrong issue. I don't. But I'll respond to the OP who maybe should have said this thread was about the morality on how you play the ball in the opening line.
I assume what was immoral was how the ball was played. Or the spectators speech, certainly if true, but that is not the focus of this thread.
But who was it that was immoral? Players broke no rules. Coaches broke no rules. The cause of this was USYS that made rules.
So is USYS an immoral organization, or just this was an immoral tournament by playing girls in the heat?
Anyway who should we blame for being immoral?
I think the whole right/wrong, big G little g, moral argument here is a bit heavy**. The discussion should be what should be done, or not. USYS made rules and different rules would cause different results. That should be the focus.
**My son who is the same age as these girls. Today he is sitting in the USAF Academy reviewing when to obey/deny orders on moral grounds. They think 17/18 year old's can judge that with weapons , but many here on this soccer thread think these girls don't have that capability.
Mystery Train
GOLD
Yes. It's too bad there isn't a video clip of the Syracuse parent's verbal abuse. I can understand being frustrated, but they should have won when it counted.
LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad
BRONZE
In my last post, I suggested that the coaches and players involved would likely do it differently if this scenario came up again, but to Zoro's posts, would USYS? THE refs? The head of referees? The representatives from Cal South? The tournament officials? ALL of them were there, and ALL of them were asked many times as the game continued to devolve, if what was happening was OK. All of them said it was. Do we think maybe they would give different responses now when asked again? If so, WHAT could they tell the teams they had to do? Other than, "hey, can you please just make it look better," I'm not sure what actual instruction they could give.
Surfref
PREMIER
As long as the players where not sitting down, which I would interpret as a possible heat related injury, there isn't anything the referee could do. I am not sure what you (posters on this forum) would expect the referee do other than to note the style of play or lack there of in the match. From the short video I saw and read on hear, it appears as if the LOTG and tournament rules were not violated.
Surfref
PREMIER
At Surf Cup today during an LAGSD game my AR says at halftime the parents were saying, "This is the team I saw on ESPN that cheated at National Cup." I set my AR straight and told her to ignore the parents. I was surprised at the inaccurate story the opposing teams parents were spreading.
LadiesMan217
GOLD
Bwahahahahahahaha
meatsweats
SILVER ELITE
Isn't today the "youngers" at Surf Cup??
Obviously, by now, I disagree.
The competition was the tournament. They were totally within the spirit of winning the National championship - just they didn't.
Not that a cycling analogy will help but...
This was just like a stage in the Tour de France. Riders in stages hold back so they can help another day.