ECNL vs. DA turf war has created a 'toxic environment'

[Giesbock]

@Giesbock continued....
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Thanks. Really excellent information. Also, gotta say that I appreciate you putting your commentary in parentheses (is that plural for one parenthesis???). Or since they come in pairs, is a pair of these things (( singular??

anyway, good stuff.

Based on this family’s relatively brief exposure to club soccer and now DA, it comes down to the coaches, proximity to home, player’s internal motivation and guess you’d want to throw in natural athleticism. So far, knock on wood, the politics, bad stuff, weird toxic talk has not been our experience.

Pay to get top tier coaches and facility? Yeah, of course...that’s sports here in today’s USA. (actually now, it’s all virtual except the homework the athlete does at home with no one watching).

There’s a great ad featuring Michael Phelps from a few years ago..”the work you do in the dark brings you into the light..” or something like that.

I know there was back and forth talk about juggling. It’s not the juggling in and of itself, but that skill leads to deftness of touch and a player’s ability to riff with the ball at game speed. International stars that struggle with juggling are the rare exception. My daughter drops 1200 or so, time permitting. Mix with headers, chest, thighs, back to both feet, etc. For a proud dad, that’s fun to watch whether it translates to potential goat ness or not!

 

[EOTL]

@EOTL I hope that didn't happen to your dd. Injuries are tough in both leagues though. We have a couple of players tear there ACL in there second last game in HS. In any case those injuries could have happened in ECNL , HS or DA. I do hear you tend to see you injures in HS? Is there any true to that? I personally this the percentage in any league would be about the same.

A girl is at risk any time she steps into the field, but she is most at risk in the last five minutes of each half unless she has been able to rest. It is irresponsible to impose a rule that forces 14 teenage girls in every game to face that maximum risk. That is not a risk present in HS or ECNL, which allow coaches to do what is best for their players, instead of what USSF thinks is best for USSF.

 

[Copa9]

Yeah, I get the fake rage because political correctness is cool right now. The fact remains... when you're 13% of the population, and you possess 65% of the player jobs, bitching about not having more of the 30 coaching jobs available is bullshit. I just have the balls to say it, Vegas.

I have said this before, apologies for repeating myself, just because you can play the sport does NOT mean you know how to coach the sport. You may love the sport, be knowledgeable about the skills, tactics, etc. etc. etc., maybe even be a good trainer one on one or small group, but that does not mean you possess the ability to communicate, encourage, manage, your knowledge for the benefit of a team! That goes for any sport!

 

[jellybelly71]

A girl is at risk any time she steps into the field, but she is most at risk in the last five minutes of each half unless she has been able to rest. It is irresponsible to impose a rule that forces 14 teenage girls in every game to face that maximum risk. That is not a risk present in HS or ECNL, which allow coaches to do what is best for their players, instead of what USSF thinks is best for USSF.

You have posted numerous times referencing ACL risk as it pertains to DA vs ECNL vs HS vs other. You have also posted your sources on occasion (I've read them all.) No doubt, female athlete ACL injury rates are alarming and we should do everything possible to reduce those rates. Unfortunately, you have consistently drawn false conclusions from the sources you've listed, many of which were poorly designed or small case studies from which no conclusions can be drawn. Having said that, I'd like to see your source in reference to your claim about the increased rate of ACL injury in the final 5 minutes of each half. Please post it. Cheers to you in advance if your data are solid and actionable. Needless to say, I am dubious. Regardless, extrapolating any such data to DA v ECNL v HS is ludicrous unless ECNL and HS coaches are resting every player every half (which, of course, they are not.)

Neil deGrasse (smart dude): "It is okay to not know. But when you don't know, yet think you know, and wield power in that ignorance, it's a recipe for disaster."

 

[sdb]

A girl is at risk any time she steps into the field, but she is most at risk in the last five minutes of each half unless she has been able to rest.

This is factually correct. There is data from many sources that shows that the risk of injury increases significantly at the end of each half. Substitution rules that limit subbing and prevent coaches from getting players off the field at the end of the half ultimately increase the likelihood of players getting hurt. There's really no reason to treat youth players like professional players.

 

[sdb]

This is factually correct. There is data from many sources that shows that the risk of injury increases significantly at the end of each half. Substitution rules that limit subbing and prevent coaches from getting players off the field at the end of the half ultimately increase the likelihood of players getting hurt. There's really no reason to treat youth players like professional players.

Here are 2 studies, I can pull a few more.

 

[Soccerfan2]

Here are 2 studies, I can pull a few more.

View attachment 6759

View attachment 6758

Earlier you said “There is data from many sources that shows that the risk of injury increases significantly at the end of each half.”

But the study you posted is not specific to ACL injury, which was the original topic. Also, the study summary specifically says “the first and last 15 minutes of the game had the highest number of actions with high injury potential, although not significant.”

This study is about injury risk (not actual injuries), it is generalized, and it does not find any statistically significant support whatsoever for the point that was made earlier.

 

[sdb]

As I mentioned, these 2 are not ACL specific. The 2nd abstract talks about injury incidence being greater at the end of the halves. The first mentions incidence highest at the end of the game. I can source about 10-15 additional studies that all show the same thing: that injury incidence was shown to increase towards the end of the first half and towards the end of the 2nd half (as well as at the start). That’s how they make the conclusions about risk. I think it’s fairly obvious that fatigue contributes to injury. Arbitrary sub rules that prevent or discourage coaches from subbing players off to get rest at the end of the half are increasing injury risk.

 

[Ellejustus]

A girl is at risk any time she steps into the field, but she is most at risk in the last five minutes of each half unless she has been able to rest. It is irresponsible to impose a rule that forces 14 teenage girls in every game to face that maximum risk. That is not a risk present in HS or ECNL, which allow coaches to do what is best for their players, instead of what USSF thinks is best for USSF.

I know some Docs who promised 11, 12 & 13 year old girls 90 minutes a game, plus start every game, never come out, like ever, plus this and plus that. Some of these GDA parents would lose their marbles if you tried to take their kid out early. I'm glad I stood up for the American way and never asked for this or that. I swear on the good book I never begged for a handout. I swear EOTL. They came to us like Coach K and told us we were the first of many many scholarships. I took the full ride. I'm guilty as charged, but I never begged, never, not once. I just wanted my dd to get up to bat and let me to you, she hit a grand slam.

 

[Emma]

As I mentioned, these 2 are not ACL specific. The 2nd abstract talks about injury incidence being greater at the end of the halves. The first mentions incidence highest at the end of the game. I can source about 10-15 additional studies that all show the same thing: that injury incidence was shown to increase towards the end of the first half and towards the end of the 2nd half (as well as at the start). That’s how they make the conclusions about risk. I think it’s fairly obvious that fatigue contributes to injury. Arbitrary sub rules that prevent or discourage coaches from subbing players off to get rest at the end of the half are increasing injury risk.

There is one consistency, there is more action in the last 15 minutes of most games unless they are blowouts without any chance of coming back. Teams play harder/faster in the last 15 minutes to hold a game or try to win a game. The correlation may be due to that rather than physical fatigue causing injury.

 

[sdb]

Probably not a surprise, but I’m happy when my daughter gets subbed off at 30 mins in the first half. I prefer that she limit her minutes and hopefully stays healthy. No one game matters in the long run, but tendons and bones do.

 

[sdb]

There is one consistency, there is more action in the last 15 minutes of most games unless they are blowouts without any chance of coming back. Teams play harder/faster in the last 15 minutes to hold a game or try to win a game. The correlation may be due to that rather than physical fatigue causing injury.

Yes agree but that increase in effort coincides with an increase in fatigue from the energy expended over the duration of the game.

 

[Ellejustus]

Earlier you said “There is data from many sources that shows that the risk of injury increases significantly at the end of each half.”

But the study you posted is not specific to ACL injury, which was the original topic. Also, the study summary specifically says “the first and last 15 minutes of the game had the highest number of actions with high injury potential, although not significant.”

This study is about injury risk (not actual injuries), it is generalized, and it does not find any statistically significant support whatsoever for the point that was made earlier.

I watched all the over use soccer fan. Way too much on these poor girls. Travel 5 hours on a plan and then play 3 90 minute games and then fly back is too much. In the heat too playing at Norco in 104. And we all thought the flu hurt people...... My dd got lucky and sat out most of last year. I did watch and I saw lot's of ACL injuries, concussions, burn out and quit soccer forever and so on. This was all to be a "full timer" just like the pros.

 

[sdb]

There is one consistency, there is more action in the last 15 minutes of most games unless they are blowouts without any chance of coming back. Teams play harder/faster in the last 15 minutes to hold a game or try to win a game. The correlation may be due to that rather than physical fatigue causing injury.

Yes agree but that increase in effort coincides with an increase in fatigue from the energy expended over the duration of the game.

 

[Ellejustus]

Thanks. Really excellent information. Also, gotta say that I appreciate you putting your commentary in parentheses (is that plural for one parenthesis???). Or since they come in pairs, is a pair of these things (( singular??

Listen smart ass (lol), I did not go to class.I did not pay attention in class. I was looking out the window wondering why we can;t learn outside instead. I would also day dream that I was a pro surfer and playing for UCLA and the great John Wooden. Does that ring a bell in your head? I still dont know what a verb or a noun is or are. I went surfing most of the time and got a 2.0 in HS so I could play sports. Let me tell you again. I hated school because I was bullied by some insensitive teachers who would fail me if I dint overcome my fear and read out loud and do oral reports. I was trapped in a system that could care a less about me. Plus, my biological mother had a lot of pain and was looking to abort me. However, someone talked her into meeting my mother and she took good care of her and me at her house until I was born. Plus she gave my birth mother 6 months to change her mind. I am grateful to sweet Jesus that I stayed with my adopted mom and dad. I mean that dude and I'm grateful. Total BS dude that schools made me feel stupid when I was a super smart cat with more lives then you can count on your 10 fingers. I knew the freaking answers but I sat there dumb as an ox. Then guys like Lester, Lastman and Kicker would snicker and giggle when I was forced to stutter in front of the hole glass. Little punks, you know what I mean @Giesbock? Making fun of a special needs kid who couldnt talk or write for that matter. All he could do is run and smake the boys hard on the court. Pink bellies too and some rubber fingers to go along. TP their house like every month. I got my revenge and I'm still dealing with these dudes at 53. Amazing how some boys never really become men. So I have no idea how to write, like not all dude so keep making fun of me......jk......lol!!!

 

[Soccerfan2]

As I mentioned, these 2 are not ACL specific. The 2nd abstract talks about injury incidence being greater at the end of the halves. The first mentions incidence highest at the end of the game. I can source about 10-15 additional studies that all show the same thing: that injury incidence was shown to increase towards the end of the first half and towards the end of the 2nd half (as well as at the start). That’s how they make the conclusions about risk. I think it’s fairly obvious that fatigue contributes to injury. Arbitrary sub rules that prevent or discourage coaches from subbing players off to get rest at the end of the half are increasing injury risk.

Jellybelly’s point was that there isn’t data to back up the claim that more ACL injuries happen in the last 5 minutes of the game. I agree. You are attempting to extrapolate a loooonnngggg way here. From injury risk to injury, from hamstring strain to ACL tear, from pro to youth, from statistically insignificant to significant. Even if there was clear science to show that ACL tears are more frequent in the last part of a game, how do you know that subbing practices are significantly different from one league to the other? Doesn’t it seem that the top players usually play full games regardless of whether there are sub rules in their league to prevent re-entry or not?

You feeling something is fairly obvious is much different than having well established science to support it.

 

[Ellejustus]

If you're married and make it out of the Quarantine still married, this is what most of us will look like. Oh joy, I cant wait

 

[Giesbock]

Listen smart ass (lol), I did not go to class.I did not pay attention in class. I was looking out the window wondering why we can;t learn outside instead. I would also day dream that I was a pro surfer and playing for UCLA and the great John Wooden. Does that ring a bell in your head? I still dont know what a verb or a noun is or are. I went surfing most of the time and got a 2.0 in HS so I could play sports. Let me tell you again. I hated school because I was bullied by some insensitive teachers who would fail me if I dint overcome my fear and read out loud and do oral reports. I was trapped in a system that could care a less about me. Plus, my biological mother had a lot of pain and was looking to abort me. However, someone talked her into meeting my mother and she took good care of her and me at her house until I was born. Plus she gave my birth mother 6 months to change her mind. I am grateful to sweet Jesus that I stayed with my adopted mom and dad. I mean that dude and I'm grateful. Total BS dude that schools made me feel stupid when I was a super smart cat with more lives then you can count on your 10 fingers. I knew the freaking answers but I sat there dumb as an ox. Then guys like Lester, Lastman and Kicker would snicker and giggle when I was forced to stutter in front of the hole glass. Little punks, you know what I mean @Giesbock? Making fun of a special needs kid who couldnt talk or write for that matter. All he could do is run and smake the boys hard on the court. Pink bellies too and some rubber fingers to go along. TP their house like every month. I got my revenge and I'm still dealing with these dudes at 53. Amazing how some boys never really become men. So I have no idea how to write, like not all dude so keep making fun of me......jk......lol!!!

Didn’t mean for that (( stuff to come off as making fun. Just trying have some fun cuz Having fun for those of us with us with German blood is rare indeed!

 

[Ellejustus]

Didn’t mean for that (( stuff to come off as making fun. Just trying have some fun cuz Having fun for those of us with us with German blood is rare indeed!

Me too. I'm having fun. My birth mother last name was Kirk. Scottish I was told my birth father might have played pro baseball but I never could prove it because my adoption was private. I just tell some folks it probably was a player from the Doyers. You cool with that story right? William Wallace and Braveheart is one of my all time favs. I also learned never to back down to something you strongly believe in from my older bro. This guy has brass balls unlike anyone I know. Watch this guy in action bro

 

[Ellejustus]

@Giesbock My mom and her first husband went to Los Angles High School. Both of them went to USC. That is all true. He became a big time lawyer. They owned 25% of Hawaiian Punch so I was told. Larry Snow was top lawyer for a small car company called Chevrolet Corp. He was lead guy on the West Coast. They also owned Fullerton Rubber Company. They owned four homes in Three Arch Bay. Two homes in Fullerton and one up in Arrowhead. Larry was the President of the Rotary Club too. Basically, they were stinking rich. Larry went horse back riding up in Arrowhead and fell off and broke his leg. He had surgery and formed a blood clot afterwards. That blood clot gave him a heart attack as he was walking to his office in Santa Ana. 36 years old. My mom was a stay home mom. Four kids under 14 with no more dad like that dad. She never wrote a check in her life and knew nothing about business. Let's just say the smart rich dudes paid my mom off quickly. She did keep four of the homes. Met my dad a year later and did the adoption thing. Too bad I don;t have HP shares

 

[dad4]

Does either league keep stats on ACL injuries?