ECNL Expansion and Contraction? MLS2?

[Highlander]

I heard from someone who attended the ECNL conference this year that USClubSoccer (governing organization for ECNL, ECRL, and NPL) was clear that they are actively aligning and shaping the thier leagues into a three tiered pyramid program. They intend on making ECRL the undisputed Tier 2 National League under the ECNL. It appears they may be moving toward a promotion/relegation system between ECRL and NPL , as many regions are already structured that way this past season.

They already do this in NorCal. That said, its still a scam when the top level is open only to specific clubs on the girls side. Take Pleasanton ECNL Girls for example...they make the DeAnza ENCL Boys teams records look good. Pleasanton is a good NPL club at best. But they are guaranteed ECNL? If ECNL was really about being a true pyramid they would promote/relegate deserving teams to and from ECNL.

BTW - if you haven't read this article that came out last week:

How the USWNT’s pipeline got fractured by a youth soccer turf war

The USWNT team has continued to win. But beneath the surface, cracks are crystalizing. With European powers investing and improving, the vulnerable balance of power in international women’s soccer is shifting.

sports.yahoo.com

The money line from it:

“Ultimately,” Robertson concludes, “and I'll get a lot of people that hate me for saying this, but 95% of clubs rely on, ‘Hey, we have this patch, so we have an exclusive pathway.’ So they don't have to really focus on actually developing players.”

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

They already do this in NorCal. That said, its still a scam when the top level is open only to specific clubs on the girls side. Take Pleasanton ECNL Girls for example...they make the DeAnza ENCL Boys teams records look good. Pleasanton is a good NPL club at best. But they are guaranteed ECNL? If ECNL was really about being a true pyramid they would promote/relegate deserving teams to and from ECNL.

They are clearly stating that there will be promotion/relegation from ECRL to/from NPL, as ECRL is now the top division for NPL (at least in NorCal Premier Boys). Teams will be bumped up and down from NPL to ECRL, just like it has been happening within the different NPL divisions. What I haven't seen as clearly, is that ECNL teams can be expected to be bumped to ECRL or vice-versa based on performance.

 

[Highlander]

They are clearly stating that there will be promotion/relegation from ECRL to/from NPL, as ECRL is now the top division for NPL (at least in NorCal Premier Boys). Teams will be bumped up and down from NPL to ECRL, just like it has been happening within the different NPL divisions. What I haven't seen as clearly, is that ECNL teams can be expected to be bumped to ECRL or vice-versa based on performance.

Right - all that is already happening in NorCal on both the girls and boys side. And no surprise they don't mention pro/rel between ECNL and ECNL RL, because they won't let it happen. They know if they bumped an ECNL club out that it would destroy that club. And back to what I said above on what a scam that is...it's just a way for them to capture more $$$ is their pyramid.

That said, don't hate the player hate the game. Reality is if you have a player who wants a chance to go highlevel D1 on the girls side they pretty much have to play ECNL as it stands today. Youth soccer changes quick though...I expect the landscape to be totally different in 3-5 years.

 

[Code]

They already do this in NorCal. That said, its still a scam when the top level is open only to specific clubs on the girls side. Take Pleasanton ECNL Girls for example...they make the DeAnza ENCL Boys teams records look good. Pleasanton is a good NPL club at best. But they are guaranteed ECNL? If ECNL was really about being a true pyramid they would promote/relegate deserving teams to and from ECNL.

BTW - if you haven't read this article that came out last week:

How the USWNT’s pipeline got fractured by a youth soccer turf war

The USWNT team has continued to win. But beneath the surface, cracks are crystalizing. With European powers investing and improving, the vulnerable balance of power in international women’s soccer is shifting.

sports.yahoo.com

The money line from it:

“Ultimately,” Robertson concludes, “and I'll get a lot of people that hate me for saying this, but 95% of clubs rely on, ‘Hey, we have this patch, so we have an exclusive pathway.’ So they don't have to really focus on actually developing players.”

Here is what I got from the article. A socialized structured soccer league (DA) didn't succeed against a free market structured soccer league (ECNL) in the U.S.. Big shocker. Another mind blowing concept is that higher registration fees allow clubs to hire quality coaches, which in turn results in higher quality teams.

Clubs do get dropped from ECNL if they are not performing well enough. I do agree that promotion/relegation is the best tool for keeping quality teams in a top league.

 

[Highlander]

Here is what I got from the article. A socialized structured soccer league (DA) didn't succeed against a free market structured soccer league (ECNL) in the U.S.. Big shocker. Another mind blowing concept is that higher registration fees allow clubs to hire quality coaches, which in turn results in higher quality teams.

Clubs do get dropped from ECNL if they are not performing well enough. I do agree that promotion/relegation is the best tool for keeping quality teams in a top league.

Agreed - honestly, just add Pro/Rel at the ECNL level then I would be happy. Until then, it's a scam and not "Player First" as the like to market on shit. Player last if anything.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Youth soccer changes quick though...I expect the landscape to be totally different in 3-5 years.

After being around the youth soccer world for the last 10ish years. This is my biggest takeaway as well. Change is the only thing you can guarantee in youth soccer.

Some clubs are smart + tend to build on their successes + over time become dominate. Some clubs just can't keep themselves from making stupid decisions + always tend to lose.

Leagues are "old mens clubs" they bring clubs together those they like and exclude the ones they don't like.

Parents unfortunately buy into the "path to the pros" nonsense + over time become overly loyal to XYZ club or league which just allows them to charge higher and higher prices.

All so players can maybe one day play professionally and earn 50k a year or play in college with a scholorship.

 

[Code]

Agreed - honestly, just add Pro/Rel at the ECNL level then I would be happy. Until then, it's a scam and not "Player First" as the like to market on shit. Player last if anything.

This a big reason I think the NPL is going to be the biggest threat to the ECNL/GA in the next couple years. It is connected to local leagues, it has a pyramid structure, it has yearly promotion/relegation built into Flight 1/NPL (starting this season, based off last season), and is team performance based, not club based (accessibility for lower income players).

When some of the DPL and ECRL players recognize they can play locally in the NPL, at the same level of play or higher, on a first team, without the added expenses of travel, with the same level of exposure, they will start going back to the NPL teams. Then the ECNL/GA clubs are going to have problems recruiting talent for the second teams, creating a cascade effect for top team talent. This cycle will create stronger and stronger NPL teams year over year.

 

[Highlander]

This a big reason I think the NPL is going to be the biggest threat to the ECNL/GA in the next couple years. It is connected to local leagues, it has a pyramid structure, it has yearly promotion/relegation built into Flight 1/NPL (starting this season, based off last season), and is team performance based, not club based (accessibility for lower income players).

When some of the DPL and ECRL players recognize they can play locally in the NPL, at the same level of play or higher, on a first team, without the added expenses of travel, with the same level of exposure, they will start going back to the NPL teams. Then the ECNL/GA clubs are going to have problems recruiting talent for the second teams, creating a cascade effect for top team talent. This cycle will create stronger and stronger NPL teams year over year.

I could see this happening. Also what I see as a threat to most ECNL/GA clubs - most (if not all) don't have a rec arm of the club...they are comp only. Many of these "city" clubs used to just be rec and select teams coached by parents, the top talent would move to the ECNL/DA clubs...that is changing. Those clubs are starting to put in stronger coaching and leadership teams for the competitive side. They have a pipeline of talent and $$$ from their rec side and many have great relationships with the cities they reside in, and because they run the rec program they get great field access often at discounts. Over time, that setup will chip away at the comp only clubs.

I've only got a few more years in the club soccer world until my dd is aged out. Going to be fun to see what happens over that time to the youth club soccer world. Would love to see the NPL pro/rel setup win out as I think its best for the players. Keep the top division named ENCL...who cares...just has to have pro/rel at the team level. The $$$ will be there...probably even more than there are now with these exclusive club setups.

 

[TopesWin]

This a big reason I think the NPL is going to be the biggest threat to the ECNL/GA in the next couple years. It is connected to local leagues, it has a pyramid structure, it has yearly promotion/relegation built into Flight 1/NPL (starting this season, based off last season), and is team performance based, not club based (accessibility for lower income players).

When some of the DPL and ECRL players recognize they can play locally in the NPL, at the same level of play or higher, on a first team, without the added expenses of travel, with the same level of exposure, they will start going back to the NPL teams. Then the ECNL/GA clubs are going to have problems recruiting talent for the second teams, creating a cascade effect for top team talent. This cycle will create stronger and stronger NPL teams year over year.

But at the moment, teams are leaving NPL/Discovery for even DPL, with just the hope of landing GA someday. No one going the other way, so the scenario is very unlikely given the stranglehold of ECNL and the clear statement GA/DPL is making as the best possible challenge to ECNL dominance.

 

[Highlander]

But at the moment, teams are leaving NPL/Discovery for even DPL, with just the hope of landing GA someday. No one going the other way, so the scenario is very unlikely given the stranglehold of ECNL and the clear statement GA/DPL is making as the best possible challenge to ECNL dominance.

That's a good point. Just learned that Union Sacramento FC dropped NPL for DPL and EA. My guess is clubs like Union are sick of NorCal Premier jerking them around and always favoring the top clubs in the area. Will interesting to see how NorCal navigates through this.

 

[Slobodan]

That's a good point. Just learned that Union Sacramento FC dropped NPL for DPL and EA. My guess is clubs like Union are sick of NorCal Premier jerking them around and always favoring the top clubs in the area. Will interesting to see how NorCal navigates through this.

Why would Union be favored for anything?

 

[Code]

But at the moment, teams are leaving NPL/Discovery for even DPL, with just the hope of landing GA someday. No one going the other way, so the scenario is very unlikely given the stranglehold of ECNL and the clear statement GA/DPL is making as the best possible challenge to ECNL dominance.

I'm pretty sure DPL doesn't accept teams; it is club based, like all the "elite leagues." Which is a big factor in my read on players moving back to NPL. That is what is meant by "team" performance based vs. "Club" based. Individual teams within the club will face promotion/relegation. It is difficult to promote/relegate an entire club, which is why it is rare in the letter leagues, and another big factor in why NPL will gain strength quickly. DPL certainly is not a challenge to ECNL, maybe GA, but GA isn't any stronger than E64 or ECRL anywhere west of the Mississippi.

 

[VanMan]

I'm pretty sure DPL doesn't accept teams; it is club based, like all the "elite leagues." Which is a big factor in my read on players moving back to NPL. That is what is meant by "team" performance based vs. "Club" based. Individual teams within the club will face promotion/relegation. It is difficult to promote/relegate an entire club, which is why it is rare in the letter leagues, and another big factor in why NPL will gain strength quickly. DPL certainly is not a challenge to ECNL, maybe GA, but GA isn't any stronger than E64 or ECRL anywhere west of the Mississippi.

It would be nice if things shook out the way you predict for NPL, but I doubt it. The "elite club" league model isn't good for anyone but "elite" clubs.

Unfortunately, NPL has been around for more than a decade and, well, it hasn't exactly accomplished much.

The fractured way NPL is run under each USCS regional league is a mess. SoCal couldn't even get their stuff together enough to run a G2010 NPL last year. And NorCal grants NPL on a club level...

 

[Code]

That's a good point. Just learned that Union Sacramento FC dropped NPL for DPL and EA. My guess is clubs like Union are sick of NorCal Premier jerking them around and always favoring the top clubs in the area. Will interesting to see how NorCal navigates through this.

After a quick look at Unions performance in the NPL over this past year, and their current rankings, I can't say I would consider their addition to DPL as an indication of DPL getting better. Their teams are mostly at the lower performance range in the NorCal NPL. Seems more likely that Sac Union's NPL teams are looking at being relegated from the NPL divisions; not a good look for a GA club to have it's second teams playing in low local flights. Moving them to the DPL shields them from the likely future relegation. Their move into the DPL will actually increase the NorCal NPL League ranking, and decrease the DPL League rankings.

 

[Code]

And NorCal grants NPL on a club level...

It is true some clubs teams are granted automatic entry to NPL at U13 on a club level. But individual teams are also added based on performance. Once U13 starts every team faces promotion/relegation regardless of club affiliation. https://norcalpremier.com/competition/national-premier-league/resource/npl-league-overview/

 

[Carlsbad7]

It is true some clubs teams are granted automatic entry to NPL at U13 on a club level. But individual teams are also added based on performance. Once U13 starts every team faces promotion/relegation regardless of club affiliation. https://norcalpremier.com/competition/national-premier-league/resource/npl-league-overview/
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While promotion/relegation is nice it only works at the highest competitive levels.

B, C, D, level soccer changes to quickly + players and parents at these levels play more for fun than anything else. Being overly competitive at this level would turn people off.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

While promotion/relegation is nice it only works at the highest competitive levels.

B, C, D, level soccer changes to quickly + players and parents at these levels play more for fun than anything else. Being overly competitive at this level would turn people off.

This is shockingly tone-deaf, at least from what I've seen. I'm sure there are players and parents that play more for fun - but NPL has more than its share of players and families that take the competition very seriously, and there are plenty of players in State Premier that work hard for that potential NPL promotion. You may have to better define what you mean by B, C, D level soccer, but if it's referring to everything other than MLSN/ECNL, it's way too broad a statement to describe everything else as "just fun".

 

[Carlsbad7]

This is shockingly tone-deaf, at least from what I've seen. I'm sure there are players and parents that play more for fun - but NPL has more than its share of players and families that take the competition very seriously, and there are plenty of players in State Premier that work hard for that potential NPL promotion. You may have to better define what you mean by B, C, D level soccer, but if it's referring to everything other than MLSN/ECNL, it's way too broad a statement to describe everything else as "just fun".

Don't get your panties in a wad. I was speaking in generalities. Not pointing a finger at any specific league, club, or team.

Pro/Rel leagues have to be the top of the food chain which makes them desirable to join. Leagues that cater to 2nd 3rd 4th level teams aren't as desirable to join.

Here's an example say a club has done so well in XYZ league that they're on ECNL GA and a primarily 2nd level Pro/Rel leagues radar. If all the leagues offered the club a spot which one do you think they'd choose?

Try it the other way say a club was dropped from a 2nd level Pro/Rel league. Egos would be hurt + in the future they just avoid the Pro/Rel league.

I like Pro/Rel leagues + wish GA + ECNL both did this. Unfortunately they don't + they're at the top of the fold chain (for girls) + are the only ones that could implement it (if they wanted to).

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Well GA could implement it, but since it's not anywhere close to the top of the food chain, by your logic it couldn't be implemented successfully.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Well GA could implement it, but since it's not anywhere close to the top of the food chain, by your logic it couldn't be implemented successfully.

I get that you like to run numbers + feel that ECNL is the "best" (whatever that means). Keep in mind that right now the end goal for both GA and ECNL is College placement.

There are...
- 333 D1 NCAA women's soccer programs
- 265 D2 NCAA women's soccer programs
- 441 D3 NCAA women's soccer programs

In ECNL there's 10-15 truly high level clubs
In GA there's 5ish truly high level clubs

333 D1 teams × 18 players per team = 5994 potential spots on a D1 team
265 D2 teams x 18 players per team = 4770 potential spots on a D2 team
441 D3 teams X 18 players per team = 7938 potential spots on a D3 team

As you can see there's a lot of places players can play if they want to do so in college. Coaches are going to recruit the top 10% of every league. They're not going to just look at a single league.