D1 college soccer under threat

[MacDre]

Please do not talk down to me like I do not know soccer. I know it is your style of trying to make yourself look like the smartest man in the room but it isn't necessary.

Playing a varsity sport for your school is completely different than club.

Emotionally for the players but you would say that is on them. Watch the College Cup or The Blue/Green Game and watch the fans, watch the players and see the emotion they bring to the game. You won't know the power of Daryl Dike because you choose not to watch. You need to depend on MAP's opinion of 4 or 5 teams are good and the rest stink because you do not watch. You miss Zak Stefen dominating games from the box, Tryston Blackmon being quietly the best player on the field,Julie Johnson Ertz killing at Santa Clara, and Rose LaVelle changing games at Wisconsin because you don't like it.

I agree it isn't a beautiful style and it is different but the passion does not change. What is the difference between how how a team from the second division in Brazil celebrate as opposed to Tufts Men winning the championship. The answer is their is not a difference. Trust me Tufts athletes are students first as are Stanford Men and Women. The pride does not change.

It is something you do not get from a college club sport with a volunteer coach, having to pay for your own travel and no backing from your school. I have personally felt the difference between college varsity and a college club sport albeit a long time ago.

You also do not get the Blue / Green game when those two universities play each other at the club level. I have seen it. Those kids play with pride and passion but the feel is different. The experience is different for the players

I apologize If I have offended you. You are actually one of my favorite coaches on this board. I can feel that your care about the game and kids greatly. I can feel your passion and your power to reach kids because you’ve touched me by your comments. I am who I am because of dudes like you. I also was not trying to be condescending, I was trying to show deference out of respect. I’m not an expert at soccer, I was recently exposed to the game by my daughter. I’m here trying to learn the game. I promise, I’m not hiding the ball.

Last summer, I took my kid to Lyon for the semi-finals and finals of the women’s world cup. My kid and I were impressed with Rose Lavelle and Kady Diani of France. I thought Leke Martens and Tobin Heath were overrated; my kid remembers Heath as the player that over dribbled and missed 2 wide open shots on 2 separate occasions. So what’s so great about Tobin Heath? I’m sincerely trying to understand the game and assess where my kid falls.

The reason that I don’t watch college soccer and the NWSL is because I suspect that most of it is bad soccer and I don’t want my kid to be influenced by it. Similar to how I don’t want my kid exposed to the negativity I was exposed to as a kid-a bad environment is a bad environment. I love the passion of our kids. However, I think our kids suffer from extreme low expectations. For me, it’s not okay to say “our kids suck at soccer, but they sure are passionate.”
I understand I am fortunate for my child’s soccer experience and I would like your kid to have the same experience; why does this offend you?

I don’t want to minimize opportunities for amateur sports. I’m being passive aggressive with a certain group on this board (which includes myself)-they know who they are. I’m calling on them to do the right thing. If I wanted to destroy college sports I’d do it-I wouldn’t be on a forum debating the merits.

 

[MacDre]

I'd say college soccer is a direct reflection of US club soccer and, in general, soccer in the US. While access to club soccer can be improved, the reason you enjoy watching the "stars" you mention isn't due to their club soccer access. It is due to the soccer culture. They played all the time, in their neighborhood streets, playgrounds and parks with no coaches near them. Even in the US, if a youngster is "star" level and plays in public at all, a club coach will find her and she won't have to worry about club tuition.

I am also more entertained by skill than physical play and I would like to see the game called more closely to facilitate a game where skill has the opportunity to overcome physical play. Hockey (non-fighting) skill and entertainment has improved immensely from my youth as has basketball from the days of the Bad Boys in Detroit. However, that is just part of the equation. This hit home for me a few years ago when watching a U14 game among two top level clubs at an ECNL showcase. The team that started the game with the kick off immediately lofted the ball deep to the opponents defensive corner. As long as top teams can thrive with this as a viable strategy, soccer skill entertainment value will be limited. I like to see teams and players that prefer the ball at their feet instead of at their opponents' feet. Part of getting to this point is "better" training, but the few hours a week of club training isn't enough without a significant does of "soccer culture" outside the club confines.

You'd enjoy watching Catarina Macario.
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Catarino Macario greatly influenced the development plan of my daughter.

 

[MacDre]

It is ok to play the game that reflects your countries personality. Brazilian greats play with flair and dancelike.. like Carnival.. Argentinians play with a like more couple glasses of wine dancing in the town square to samba feel. Germans can be very structured, strong engineered feel, Spain is more like a bullfight flair beautiful and dangerous, Italy has more of a Sunday feel to their game dinner with our family style arguing with each other constantly but they love and have each others back, Netherlands defined, technical, artistic.. Ivory Coast, fast hunter like.. lionlinke... America.. we grind it out work hard not the best but driven for success even when people want to hold us back. Our best successes did not come from the prettiest games. We are strong, fast and direct.. defend when our backs are against the wall. I am good with it and I am good not winning the World Cup but I want us too.
The point is there are so many styles and it is great. It makes the game wonderful. When you try to force it to be something it is not you may not qualify for the World Cup and that is worse than not winning it.

I agree. However, in America I don’t think we have a style and suffer from low expectations. I don’t consider kick ball a style. All countries have passionate athletes; that’s not an excuse for an extreme lack of skill

 

[MacDre]

Please do not talk down to me like I do not know soccer. I know it is your style of trying to make yourself look like the smartest man in the room but it isn't necessary.

Playing a varsity sport for your school is completely different than club.

Emotionally for the players but you would say that is on them. Watch the College Cup or The Blue/Green Game and watch the fans, watch the players and see the emotion they bring to the game. You won't know the power of Daryl Dike because you choose not to watch. You need to depend on MAP's opinion of 4 or 5 teams are good and the rest stink because you do not watch. You miss Zak Stefen dominating games from the box, Tryston Blackmon being quietly the best player on the field,Julie Johnson Ertz killing at Santa Clara, and Rose LaVelle changing games at Wisconsin because you don't like it.

I agree it isn't a beautiful style and it is different but the passion does not change. What is the difference between how how a team from the second division in Brazil celebrate as opposed to Tufts Men winning the championship. The answer is their is not a difference. Trust me Tufts athletes are students first as are Stanford Men and Women. The pride does not change.

It is something you do not get from a college club sport with a volunteer coach, having to pay for your own travel and no backing from your school. I have personally felt the difference between college varsity and a college club sport albeit a long time ago.

You also do not get the Blue / Green game when those two universities play each other at the club level. I have seen it. Those kids play with pride and passion but the feel is different. The experience is different for the players

This too:

USC head coach Ali Khosroshahin

www.topdrawersoccer.com

 

[Simisoccerfan]

I agree. However, in America I don’t think we have a style and suffer from low expectations. I don’t consider kick ball a style. All countries have passionate athletes; that’s not an excuse for an extreme lack of skill

The goal of a soccer game is to outscore the opponent. It’s not a dance off or a style contest. Instead it’s like a giant interactive puzzle where you try and try again until one team figures it out. There is no one style that is the right style. Certainly spectators can prefer a style. But whatever style that allows you to win on a given day is the right style.

 

[jpeter]

My son and I have attended over a 100 college games over the years and he's trained with a few of them, knows several coaches.

Mens college soccer has some great players and universities do a good job in helping students athletes prepare for professions outside the sport.

With the short season and general style of play in the past they have done a rather poor job of preparing athletes for higher levels of play behind college. Very few even make to the MLS, out of those even fewer stick around most linger on the second team or USL. Besides Jordan Morris most would be hard pressed to name college soccer players who have made it professionaly.

Apparently the proposed split season for men is not going to happen in the foreseeable future now

NCAA hits pause button on men's college soccer's quest for split-season @21stCMSoccer

Thanks to an effort spearheaded by University of Maryland coach Sasho Cirovski, the NCAA seemed on the brink of approving major reform for men’s college soccer with a Division ICouncil vote in late April. But a decision on the proposal to switch to a fall-spring split season has been put on hold...

www.socceramerica.com

For the serious soccer athletes playing 3 months doesn't get it done for what should be some prime development years.

My son's first soccer mentor was a college star who's had a nice long, and lucrative career in the MX league since. He remembers all the things he used to have to run around to do in the off-season including playing as a amateur on a semi-pro team and was hoping there would be a better way when he gets to that point.

He's always had a hard time seeing the return on investment from a pure soccer standpoint in the college mens game. So much so he didn't even want to consider college soccer until he was a HS sophomore when one of the schools advocating the split season told him things where going to be different by the time he would be a college freshman. Now with that out of the picture he had a video conference on Friday about that and the scholarship pool money that's now is up in the air. He is now reassessing his options and verbal commitment.

 

[MacDre]

The goal of a soccer game is to outscore the opponent. It’s not a dance off or a style contest. Instead it’s like a giant interactive puzzle where you try and try again until one team figures it out. There is no one style that is the right style. Certainly spectators can prefer a style. But whatever style that allows you to win on a given day is the right style.

The USMNT can’t even qualify for the World Cup; so we’re not winning enough. Low expectations and a ethnocentric mentality will not get us to the World Cup.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

It is ok to play the game that reflects your countries personality. Brazilian greats play with flair and dancelike.. like Carnival.. Argentinians play with a like more couple glasses of wine dancing in the town square to samba feel. Germans can be very structured, strong engineered feel, Spain is more like a bullfight flair beautiful and dangerous, Italy has more of a Sunday feel to their game dinner with our family style arguing with each other constantly but they love and have each others back, Netherlands defined, technical, artistic.. Ivory Coast, fast hunter like.. lionlinke... America.. we grind it out work hard not the best but driven for success even when people want to hold us back. Our best successes did not come from the prettiest games. We are strong, fast and direct.. defend when our backs are against the wall. I am good with it and I am good not winning the World Cup but I want us too.
The point is there are so many styles and it is great. It makes the game wonderful. When you try to force it to be something it is not you may not qualify for the World Cup and that is worse than not winning it.

I'd argue soccer that in the US our style reflects our skill level more than our personality. For US born and raised "play with flair", I give you Oscar Robertson, Pistol Pete Maravich, Julius Erving, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan ... you get the idea. I'd also argue that the Brazilian's don't play with flair just because that is their culture, they play with flair because they can.

 

[messy]

The goal of a soccer game is to outscore the opponent. It’s not a dance off or a style contest. Instead it’s like a giant interactive puzzle where you try and try again until one team figures it out. There is no one style that is the right style. Certainly spectators can prefer a style. But whatever style that allows you to win on a given day is the right style.

This post is Exhibit A of why the US still sucks at soccer and, in fact, loses so much. No style, no system, you lose. Ask Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson or Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola.

 

[Simisoccerfan]

The USMNT can’t even qualify for the World Cup; so we’re not winning enough. Low expectations and a ethnocentric mentality will not get us to the World Cup.

Yes this last cycle was a train wreck. But you might be surprised that the men’s team has been in 10 World Cups. More than all but 14 nations.

 

[dad4]

Whatever style allows you to win is the right style?

That's often the rationalization for playing dirty when the ref isn't looking. And exhibit one for why our injury rates are high.

 

[Simisoccerfan]

This post is Exhibit A of why the US still sucks at soccer and, in fact, loses so much. No style, no system, you lose. Ask Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson or Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola.

Barcelona went to far with their style. Even they had to start playing more direct on occasion.

 

[MacDre]

My son and I have attended over a 100 college games over the years and he's trained with a few of them, knows several coaches.

Mens college soccer has some great players and universities do a good job in helping students athletes prepare for professions outside the sport.

With the short season and general style of play in the past they have done a rather poor job of preparing athletes for higher levels of play behind college. Very few even make to the MLS, out of those even fewer stick around most linger on the second team or USL. Besides Jordan Morris most would be hard pressed to name college soccer players who have made it professionaly.

Apparently the proposed split season for men is not going to happen in the foreseeable future now

NCAA hits pause button on men's college soccer's quest for split-season @21stCMSoccer

Thanks to an effort spearheaded by University of Maryland coach Sasho Cirovski, the NCAA seemed on the brink of approving major reform for men’s college soccer with a Division ICouncil vote in late April. But a decision on the proposal to switch to a fall-spring split season has been put on hold...

www.socceramerica.com

For the serious soccer athletes playing 3 months doesn't get it done for what should be some prime development years.

My son's first soccer mentor was a college star who's had a nice long, and lucrative career in the MX league since. He remembers all the things he used to have to run around to do in the off-season including playing as a amateur on a semi-pro team and was hoping there would be a better way when he gets to that point.

He's always had a hard time seeing the return on investment from a pure soccer standpoint in the college mens game. So much so he didn't even want to consider college soccer until he was a HS sophomore when one of the schools advocating the split season told him things where going to be different by the time he would be a college freshman. Now with that out of the picture he had a video conference on Friday about that and the scholarship pool money that's now is up in the air. He is now reassessing his options and verbal commitment.

Thanks for sharing. Your son is a perfect example of kids that I’m trying to help. I’ve heard several times that are men fall behind developmentally during college years. From what I’m seeing in Mexico, are boys are at a disadvantage after 12. In Mexico, 2008 boys will either sink or swim this upcoming year. I think we are falling behind developmentally way before college.
Your kid sounds like he’s close to 18...maybe he can come to TJ and see how it goes. PM if you’re interested.

 

[Simisoccerfan]

Whatever style allows you to win is the right style?

That's often the rationalization for playing dirty when the ref isn't looking. And exhibit one for why our injury rates are high.

Don‘t try to read that into my statement! There is no room for dirty play. If you knew me and what my dd went through you would know that is not what I meant.

 

[MacDre]

Yes this last cycle was a train wreck. But you might be surprised that the men’s team has been in 10 World Cups. More than all but 14 nations.

How many have they won? Almost only counts in horseshoes!

 

[Ellejustus]

Whatever style allows you to win is the right style?

That's often the rationalization for playing dirty when the ref isn't looking. And exhibit one for why our injury rates are high.

Yes, I witnessed that style years back and still do. The only time my wife ever yelled at a kid on the other team was years ago when a Ref was not looking and one kid whacked another kid in the back of the leg all because the other kid scored on her. HS school is tough too and I hear college as well. DAD4, 100% I agree that soccer in some places have been rugby and very dangerous. I have pics of my dd with a broken foot, broken wrist, mild concussion and and other injury I don;t remember. My dd was not allowed to do headers either. Now she is but very selective. Too many dumb injuries in girls soccer and we need safety rules and maybe Corona can help us with that. No more rough play.

 

[Ellejustus]

My son and I have attended over a 100 college games over the years and he's trained with a few of them, knows several coaches.

Mens college soccer has some great players and universities do a good job in helping students athletes prepare for professions outside the sport.

With the short season and general style of play in the past they have done a rather poor job of preparing athletes for higher levels of play behind college. Very few even make to the MLS, out of those even fewer stick around most linger on the second team or USL. Besides Jordan Morris most would be hard pressed to name college soccer players who have made it professionaly.

Apparently the proposed split season for men is not going to happen in the foreseeable future now

NCAA hits pause button on men's college soccer's quest for split-season @21stCMSoccer

Thanks to an effort spearheaded by University of Maryland coach Sasho Cirovski, the NCAA seemed on the brink of approving major reform for men’s college soccer with a Division ICouncil vote in late April. But a decision on the proposal to switch to a fall-spring split season has been put on hold...

www.socceramerica.com

For the serious soccer athletes playing 3 months doesn't get it done for what should be some prime development years.

My son's first soccer mentor was a college star who's had a nice long, and lucrative career in the MX league since. He remembers all the things he used to have to run around to do in the off-season including playing as a amateur on a semi-pro team and was hoping there would be a better way when he gets to that point.

He's always had a hard time seeing the return on investment from a pure soccer standpoint in the college mens game. So much so he didn't even want to consider college soccer until he was a HS sophomore when one of the schools advocating the split season told him things where going to be different by the time he would be a college freshman. Now with that out of the picture he had a video conference on Friday about that and the scholarship pool money that's now is up in the air. He is now reassessing his options and verbal commitment.

Look what Coach Mirelle said from the woman's side of this. This is why we went for GDA. Not college. Sorry, we went for pro because of statements like this. We didnt join the GDA for college. Why would we? We would just go to ECNL. because that's what ECNL was selling, not pros. It got all mixed up everyone and we need to separate the players.

SA: Do you imagine a future in which the girls' pathway to the full national team doesn't include college soccer?

MIRELLE VAN RIJBROEK: I could imagine everything. What really happens I don’t know. For 98% of the players college is perfect. If your goal is to get a scholarship via soccer. If you like playing but your main goal is getting your degree.

If you have the dream and ambition to become a professional player and want to become a national team player, the college program and the way it is organized now will not be enough anymore. This basically has to do with the development of high-performance programs in some other leading nations. Three and a half months doesn’t help you to develop yourself internationally, if you compare this with other countries like France, Spain, England, Germany, Netherlands, Japan, etc. Girls in those countries from the age of 17 years already play in senior women’s leagues. With a year-around program, high-quality programs. The best with the best.

So, for the top 2% players in the United States I could imagine a hybrid model. A year-around performance program that prepares players for international soccer but also helps you to get a degree. This could be in collaboration with college. Or it could also be a different pathway.

College soccer has been very good for the system for many years. It was good in an era when it was advanced compared to soccer programs in the rest of the world. Other countries didn’t have this sort of program and equal opportunities. This has changed and continues to change. Nowadays, to play and compete on the elite international level the college program is not enough anymore. It’s too short. The competition in three months is too many games in a short period. It impacts the physical health of the player. For the top 2% of the players. college soccer will not be good enough anymore in the future.

 

[messy]

Barcelona went to far with their style. Even they had to start playing more direct on occasion.

Agreed...at least after a while and new personnel.
We don't have systems or stars.
The US women, at least, always have stars and a great psychology.

 

[vegasguy]

I agree. However, in America I don’t think we have a style and suffer from low expectations. I don’t consider kick ball a style. All countries have passionate athletes; that’s not an excuse for an extreme lack of skill

Thank you for the clarification i truly appreciate that and the kind words.

For debate purposes you did say there is no place for college soccer above the club level. You will miss out on doctors and lawyers and teachers who pulled themselves out their neighborhoods and found good mentors in college if they are only playing club level. I do not have numbers as club v college has never been studied but on one of my squads I can say that if they can not play college soccer they will most likely not have the means to go or the want to go. Club sports are paid and funded by the players. Intramural sports are free but different too.

America does have a style but we have lost our way. Not sure if you remember the 94 team, the 98, 02, team 06, & 10 and even 14 to a point. We are gritty, we defend and counter.. we do not possess like others and do not have the on the ball skill with a full team that others do but we have our style. We are adrift because everyone gets caught up we need to play more this way so we bring in players from Germany... or we need to play more Latin players because it is in their culture.. I do not deny we need to bring in our best but we need to bring in our best and play our way. Million ways to skin a cat.

It is not always pretty but not every La Liga or Serie A team plays pretty. Watch the ANC and you will not be watching pretty soccer but you will see pretty players. we have very very talented players but we are so caught up in the next Messi we lose our way. Be the next them.. Marta actually said that best.

I am a possession wanting to play out of the back coach. Others may disagree. The other team can not score if they do not have the ball but there are times you need to get past your own philosophy and change a bit to have success. I most recently told a squad do you want to be Arianna Grande or Meltallica. They got the point and really picked it up and before the end of it all this year we had hit our stride and had high hopes in the final four of state cup. Metallica is not always pretty but trust me their style is definitely effective and there is beauty in a mosh pit and a stage dive.

Hiding your daughter from a style whether you like it or not is not always the best. Tobin Heath has flair.. brash confidence and is setting you up for her next nutmeg.. you may not like it but it is awesome.. we all see the Ronaldino flair and successes.. you do not see the thousands of times it did not come off. Many would rather watch Messi but me.. I liked Inesta better. Give me Oliver Kahn over Ederson any day. We all have our opinions of beauty or most of us would still be single.

Lastly, no one is making excuses for skill or say it is ok to suck as long as you play with passion. We are competitive and want to win it is in our nature. The true soccer culture is not complacent in our desire to build better soccer and we are frustrated that the needle is not being moved faster. But we also are realists and know the managers of the pyramid may be the one making it crumble.

 

[vegasguy]

The college game is terrible. It barely resembles soccer as played in the rest of the world. It's sheer speed and physicality. Such a shame that the ncaa plays football and basketball so well, but can't play soccer.

College game is much much different than the pro game. In some cases college is influencing the pro games.