Bad News Thread

dad4 said:
You might want to post a link for that claim about Newsom closing playgrounds. Are you talking about March?

I watched the whole news conference today and did not hear anything about a decision to close playgrounds.

Current guidance on the state web site says nothing about closing them, either.

Outdoor Playgrounds and other Outdoor Recreational Facilities

www.cdph.ca.gov www.cdph.ca.gov

It is far too specific, but I don't see a single word there about closures.
Click to expand...

It's in the summary run by the local paper.....

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334610657476395008

BTW....hope all the OC peep out there are o.k. Hearing the news about the fires. To top off a horrible news day.
 
dad4 said:
You might want to post a link for that claim about Newsom closing playgrounds. Are you talking about March?

I watched the whole news conference today and did not hear anything about a decision to close playgrounds.

Current guidance on the state web site says nothing about closing them, either.

Outdoor Playgrounds and other Outdoor Recreational Facilities

www.cdph.ca.gov www.cdph.ca.gov

It is far too specific, but I don't see a single word there about closures.
Click to expand...

It was hard to find it but if you dig on the state site link click on "What does Regional Stay At Home Order Do?"

I hope this means you'll finally admit you are wrong about something. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
Grace T. said:
It was hard to find it but if you dig on the state site link click on "What does Regional Stay At Home Order Do?"

I hope this means you'll finally admit you are wrong about something. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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I was right that I couldn't find it!

I can see why he wouldn't highlight it in the press conference. It's a stupid decision.

3 year olds playing outside are not even a medium size risk. Parents chatting at the edges might be, but that's what masks are for.

At least they put bars, cardrooms, and dining on the list. Those should have been closed months ago.
 
espola said:
You can ignore the differences for the sake of argument, but that won't make them go away.
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Oh this is supersweat...on the same day I caught Dad being outright wrong and get to catch espola....maybe the day's not such a total burnout afterall

www.usatoday.com

Supreme Court grants California church's challenge to coronavirus restrictions

The high court ruled 5-4 last month that limiting houses of worship to 10 or 25 worshipers in parts of New York violated the First Amendment.
www.usatoday.com
 
dad4 said:
I was right that I couldn't find it!

I can see why he wouldn't highlight it in the press conference. It's a stupid decision.

3 year olds playing outside are not even a medium size risk. Parents chatting at the edges might be, but that's what masks are for.

At least they put bars, cardrooms, and dining on the list. Those should have been closed months ago.
Click to expand...

The true idiocy of it all is that despite our disagreements, we actually agree on 90% of the policy prescriptions. You're just 90% wrong on the reasoning. :rolleyes:
 
Grace T. said:
The true idiocy of it all is that despite our disagreements, we actually agree on 90% of the policy prescriptions. You're just 90% wrong on the reasoning. :rolleyes:
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I think we mostly disagree about the utility of masks. That’s more a question of viewing them as PPE ( they stink ), or as a device to slow transmission (they do ok.)
 
dad4 said:
I think we mostly disagree about the utility of masks. That’s more a question of viewing them as PPE ( they stink ), or as a device to slow transmission (they do ok.)
Click to expand...


The reading comprehension always alludes you. I said we agree on the policy prescription: which is people should wear masks. We probably disagree on the edges (e.g. masks outside are stupid) but you indicated on a prior post you'd be happy to concede those points in return for a universal indoor mandate. We do disagree on the utility, which is a different question, and one which the experiences around the world has shown you are wrong about.
 
Grace T. said:
Here's my headscratcher: Newsom's decided to close playgrounds (and zoos) but the ski resorts are open? But at the same time overnight campgrounds would be shuttered (so no RVs) and hotels would be limited and nonessential travel banned. So you can go to a ski resort if you live near one in driving distance? Does Newsom (or one of his health directors) have some sort of holiday cabin we're unaware of and they want to bunker down in for the winter and want to avoid a French laundry accusation of hypocrisy?
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This is too convoluted not to be something like that. Or, maybe these are the bans delivered by their Shutdown Ouija Board. Figures, CA got a board with a spirit that hates soccer.
 
Grace T. said:
The reading comprehension always alludes you. I said we agree on the policy prescription: which is people should wear masks. We probably disagree on the edges (e.g. masks outside are stupid) but you indicated on a prior post you'd be happy to concede those points in return for a universal indoor mandate. We do disagree on the utility, which is a different question, and one which the experiences around the world has shown you are wrong about.
Click to expand...
Your ”experiences around the world” argument tends to be cherry picking data after the fact. For example, you don’t seem to like to include east asia in your data.

I don’t mind being “proven” wrong by arguments that weak. Besides, your most recent chart was a nice example of how much you can do with masks but without business closures.
 
Grace T. said:
This is the most hilarious stay at home order that's just been issued for the city of Los Angeles. It prohibits, under penalty of misdeamenor, leaving your house or traveling by foot, bike, public transport, car or scooter. It then exempts the homeless. It then exempts a long line of business activities. Such business activities include hard ware stores, piercing shops, tanning shops, dog groomers, tattoo parlors, bike repair shops, taxis, and retail shops (at reduced capapcity) It exempts outdoor worship (which is now clearly unconstitutional since this is the very scenario addressed in the SCOTUS case...they could have done a percentage cap but chose to ignore it). It pretty much keeps the outdoor recreation sites open with a handful of tweaks here and there (sorry water poloers). Of course film and TV production remain open. Zoos are o.k. Pro sports and day camps still allowed. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. Basically it's a plea to do the one thing they can't control: private socialization....and it takes them pages to do it. History might very well record this as one of the most ludicrous documents to emerge from the pandemic. Make sure to tell your kids they can't go outside scooting in the city of LA...they might get charged with a misdemeanor.


Click to expand...
This takes a bit of the bite out of the enforcement of the order.

www.newsweek.com

Some California Sheriffs Won't Enforce Newsom's New COVID Curfew

At least four sheriffs of major counties in California say they will take a hands off approach in enforcing Governor Gavin Newsom's month-long COVID-19 curfew, which is set to begin in most of the state on Saturday
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
 
Grace T. said:
You said it was different, they say it wasn't.
Click to expand...

Neither of those statements is true. I sad this -- "In order to use the NY SCOTUS decision as precedent, one must show that the two situations are equivalent. Just because both mention churches is not enough." What's wrong with that?

As for the SCOTUS action today - they granted an expedited hearing. There is no decision yet. The NY decision included language that the churches were being dealt with more harshly than other similar, but non-religious, businesses. Is that the case in the California restrictions?
 
dad4 said:
Your ”experiences around the world” argument tends to be cherry picking data after the fact. For example, you don’t seem to like to include east asia in your data.

I don’t mind being “proven” wrong by arguments that weak. Besides, your most recent chart was a nice example of how much you can do with masks but without business closures.
Click to expand...

You really want to relitigate this? You have to throw out N Korea/China/Vietnam because of their governments fiddling with the numbers. You have to throw out South Korea because of the vastly different policies. That leaves us with Japan and the Phillipines (the latter of which has had a very vigorous mask mandate). You know as well as I do that one of the theories floating around is the reason Asia is doing better is because of cross-immunity from other coronaviruses (which an anthropolgy paper I cited in the old COVID forum shows has been endemic in Asia since Han dynasty times). Japan and the Phillipines is evidence of it....because the Phillipines had a history of much less trade with mainland China than Japan did (and IndoChina had much more trade with China than Japan which is also consistent with the results). And then there's this....taken a look at how Japan is doing recently?......masks working really well in Japan apparently (and that's with an estimated count by 2 studies now before the current surge of maybe 40% antibody prevalence in Japan...Japanese testing, which has been a shambles, is only catching up now....people in Japan are coming down with it, they are just much more asymptomatic than Europe/the US).

www.worldometers.info

Japan COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Japan Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
www.worldometers.info www.worldometers.info
www.worldometers.info

Philippines COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Philippines Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
www.worldometers.info www.worldometers.info
mainichi.jp

Experts suspect cross immunity explains Japan's low coronavirus death rate - The Mainichi

TOKYO -- Some experts say cross immunity is the reason for the low death rate among novel coronavirus patients in Japan and other parts of Asia compar
mainichi.jp mainichi.jp
 
espola said:
Neither of those statements is true. I sad this -- "In order to use the NY SCOTUS decision as precedent, one must show that the two situations are equivalent. Just because both mention churches is not enough." What's wrong with that?

As for the SCOTUS action today - they granted an expedited hearing. There is no decision yet. The NY decision included language that the churches were being dealt with more harshly than other similar, but non-religious, businesses. Is that the case in the California restrictions?
Click to expand...

Reading comprehension...they didn't grant an expedited hearing. They sent it back to the California courts with instructions to apply their instructions in the New York case. They are slapping the lower courts down, telling them to do their homework over again because its got errors in it.
 
Grace T. said:
Reading comprehension...they didn't grant an expedited hearing. They sent it back to the California courts with instructions to apply their instructions in the New York case. They are slapping the lower courts down, telling them to do their homework over again because its got errors in it.
Click to expand...

Quoting from the article you posted -- "sending a California church's challenge back to lower courts".

Perhaps you comprehend that differently than I do.
 
espola said:
Quoting from the article you posted -- "sending a California church's challenge back to lower courts".

Perhaps you comprehend that differently than I do.
Click to expand...

Yeah with instructions. Like I said, it's the equivalent of a kid turning in his homework to the teacher and the teacher sending it back telling him its wrong and to do it over and this time follow the instructions. The Supreme Court could have also just let the situation stand (which would mean that either they agree with the California courts or felt it was sufficiently different they wanted to see how it played out and what arguments might arise). This isn't that....this is you got it wrong, redo it.
 
Grace T. said:
You really want to relitigate this? You have to throw out N Korea/China/Vietnam because of their governments fiddling with the numbers. You have to throw out South Korea because of the vastly different policies. That leaves us with Japan and the Phillipines (the latter of which has had a very vigorous mask mandate). You know as well as I do that one of the theories floating around is the reason Asia is doing better is because of cross-immunity from other coronaviruses (which an anthropolgy paper I cited in the old COVID forum shows has been endemic in Asia since Han dynasty times). Japan and the Phillipines is evidence of it....because the Phillipines had a history of much less trade with mainland China than Japan did (and IndoChina had much more trade with China than Japan which is also consistent with the results). And then there's this....taken a look at how Japan is doing recently?......masks working really well in Japan apparently (and that's with an estimated count by 2 studies now before the current surge of maybe 40% antibody prevalence in Japan...Japanese testing, which has been a shambles, is only catching up now....people in Japan are coming down with it, they are just much more asymptomatic than Europe/the US).

www.worldometers.info

Japan COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Japan Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
www.worldometers.info www.worldometers.info
www.worldometers.info

Philippines COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Philippines Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
www.worldometers.info www.worldometers.info
mainichi.jp

Experts suspect cross immunity explains Japan's low coronavirus death rate - The Mainichi

TOKYO -- Some experts say cross immunity is the reason for the low death rate among novel coronavirus patients in Japan and other parts of Asia compar
mainichi.jp mainichi.jp
Click to expand...
How many data points do you get to throw out because you find them inconvenient?

You don't get to wait until you have the data and then ignore the parts that don't fit your narrative.

So you wanted to ignore New Zealand and South Korea, because they are (effectively) islands. Then now you want to include Philippines, which somehow does not qualify under the island exemption.

Cherry picking.
 
Grace T. said:
Yeah with instructions. Like I said, it's the equivalent of a kid turning in his homework to the teacher and the teacher sending it back telling him its wrong and to do it over and this time follow the instructions. The Supreme Court could have also just let the situation stand (which would mean that either they agree with the California courts or felt it was sufficiently different they wanted to see how it played out and what arguments might arise). This isn't that....this is you got it wrong, redo it.
Click to expand...
More like your class gets a new teacher, except this one wants to teach creationism. And yes, that new teacher will give you back your evolution essay and ask you to put some God in it.

It happens, but it doesn't mean the teacher is right.
 
dad4 said:
How many data points do you get to throw out because you find them inconvenient?

You don't get to wait until you have the data and then ignore the parts that don't fit your narrative.

So you wanted to ignore New Zealand and South Korea, because they are (effectively) islands. Then now you want to include Philippines, which somehow does not qualify under the island exemption.

Cherry picking.
Click to expand...


Not cherry picking. Reasoning. New Zealand got hit very late and to their credit effectively shut down their borders (remember when Trump partially tried to do that....New Zealand even left its own citizens stranded overseas until they could set up quarantine centers to get people back home off island). South Korea has very different policy outcomes. What I'm trying to do is filter out the circumstances to compare masks to masks. Japan and the Phillipines are perfect....they have similar policies and similar mask usage, but a very different history of coronavirus exposure.

You just want to ignore everything that distrupts your image that something (anything) might work and might control it. And the harder someone tries to tear that blue pill out of your hand, the tighter you clutch at it, crying for dear life.
 
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