Bad News Thread

Grace T. said:
His pandemic response of wishing people were just better, more considerate, more like him is the essence of preaching. He’s basically admitted that in the end he’s preaching instead of advocating math and science based solutions. It’s for that reason the real world mask data is irrelevant to him: in the end it’s the act which is virtuous regardless of whether it has any real world effect. Same with the weekly take out: it’s a ritual act of virtue instead of hey we feel like eating pizza tonight.
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The math and science only tells us what we need to do. It doesn’t tell us how to convince ourselves to do it.

We needed to wear masks and avoid shared indoor spaces. Still do, for a bit.

There isn't much the scientists can do if we insist on listening to twitter feeds instead of scientific journals.
 
dad4 said:
We needed to wear masks and avoid shared indoor spaces. Still do, for a bit.
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Why do we need to wear masks?

The NIH, the WHO and the EU all state that they don't have evidence of masks working.

The first question was a trick question.

You are a believer despite major gov entities stating they don't have any good evidence they work.
 
dad4 said:
To be honest, the time for that discussion has past. Most seniors have, by this point, been offered a vaccine.

Back the question was valid, we disagreed about how to protect seniors, not whether. Some believed that it was possible to draw a circle around seniors and keep them isolated from the virus in the community. Others believed that such a barrier is inherently leaky, and the best way to protect seniors was to reduce overall transmission.

We could look at the data to see whether anywhere managed to protect seniors without fighting the virus. It would show up on worldometer as states and countries with high cases and low deaths.

If multiple countries have high cases and low deaths, we should have done what they did.

If no one has high cases and low deaths, then the only (pre-vaccine) way to protect seniors was to fight cases.
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Back to cases again.
 
dad4 said:
What makes you think we would have had a roaring economy if we had let covid run free starting last March? People would have retreated from economic life either way.

Agree that trying to control covid, but failing, is probably the worst policy for the economy.

I don’t put much stock in the FL example, though. FL gets to infect people over spring break, then send them back home to stress out some other state’s health care infrastructure. Most places don’t get to pull that stunt. If Nebraska infects ten thousand people, it is Nebraska that has to deal with it.
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What about all the New Yorkers that planted the seeds in FL to begin with?
 
happy9 said:
Let's agree to disagree. Government has a purpose. OSHA is a regulatory agency that can levy fines for violations. OSHA is pretty effective at what they do.

You don't have much trust in people. You don't run your own business, you don't have the appropriate experience or context to make sound business decisions. You assume that short term greed is the priority for business. It's not. For many it's a lifelong investment and their identity. Allowing government to snuff out their livelihood is the antithesis of what America is about.

When was the last time you were in a business in FL, AZ, or TX? You will be surprised at how they are being run. My wife is in FL right - her surprising feedback is that mask compliance is FL is higher than in AZ. Businesses know what they have to do to keep their doors open, safely. I'm sure there are outliers, always will be. Parts of CA in AUG were not exactly compliant - openly defiant.

I do appreciate your consistency though, really do.
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Last time I was in AZ, TX, or FL? Pre-covid.

Airplanes are on my "not until fully vaccinated" list. I also try to reduce my airplane travel because of climate change, so it was infrequent to begin with.

Agree that CA isn't fully compliant, either. As you note, it shows.

We disagree on whether it is possible to responsibly operate certain businesses without vaccines. You believe yes and I believe no. It leads to different conclusions.
 
dad4 said:
The math and science only tells us what we need to do. It doesn’t tell us how to convince ourselves to do it.

We needed to wear masks and avoid shared indoor spaces. Still do, for a bit.

There isn't much the scientists can do if we insist on listening to twitter feeds instead of scientific journals.
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Like this "science"? When people talk about "experts" this one is at the top of their list. Do you have any evidence of scientists that actually called him out on this when he made this prediction?

www.cnbc.com

Former Biden Covid advisor says U.S. should prioritize first vaccine doses ahead of potential surge

Dr. Michael Osterholm says the U.S. should prioritize first doses of Covid vaccine ahead of a potential surge linked to overseas variants.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com

“You and I are sitting on this beach, where it’s 70 degrees, perfectly blue skies, gentle breeze, but I see that hurricane — Category 5 or higher — 450 miles off shore,” Osterholm told host Chuck Todd. “Telling people to evacuate on the nice, blue sky day is going to be hard. But I can also tell you that the hurricane is coming.”

“The fact is that the surge that is likely to occur with this new variant from England is going to happen in the next six to 14 weeks. And, if we see that happen, which my 45 years in the trenches tell me we will, we are going to see something like we have not seen yet in this country,” Osterholm said.
 
Mad Hatter said:
Why do we need to wear masks?

The NIH, the WHO and the EU all state that they don't have evidence of masks working.

The first question was a trick question.

You are a believer despite major gov entities stating they don't have any good evidence they work.
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Look, if you won't believe the epidemiologists, you're not going to believe me.

I've read enough studies to conclude that masks are a low cost, low annoyance, way to reduce transmission. Together with vaccines, they have a cost/benefit ratio better than anything else we've done.

I'm not going to spend time figuring out exactly how you are misinterpreting to he NIH or EU reports.

You want to believe random twitter feeds that misrepresent the science? I can't stop you.
 
dad4 said:
Last time I was in AZ, TX, or FL? Pre-covid.

Airplanes are on my "not until fully vaccinated" list. I also try to reduce my airplane travel because of climate change, so it was infrequent to begin with.

Agree that CA isn't fully compliant, either. As you note, it shows.

We disagree on whether it is possible to responsibly operate certain businesses without vaccines. You believe yes and I believe no. It leads to different conclusions.
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Now, in FL. Mask compliance is higher than in many places. They get it.

Does it really lead to different conclusions? Where was the death and destruction after Sturgis?
 
kickingandscreaming said:
Like this "science"? When people talk about "experts" this one is at the top of their list. Do you have any evidence of scientists that actually called him out on this when he made this prediction?

www.cnbc.com

Former Biden Covid advisor says U.S. should prioritize first vaccine doses ahead of potential surge

Dr. Michael Osterholm says the U.S. should prioritize first doses of Covid vaccine ahead of a potential surge linked to overseas variants.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com

“You and I are sitting on this beach, where it’s 70 degrees, perfectly blue skies, gentle breeze, but I see that hurricane — Category 5 or higher — 450 miles off shore,” Osterholm told host Chuck Todd. “Telling people to evacuate on the nice, blue sky day is going to be hard. But I can also tell you that the hurricane is coming.”

“The fact is that the surge that is likely to occur with this new variant from England is going to happen in the next six to 14 weeks. And, if we see that happen, which my 45 years in the trenches tell me we will, we are going to see something like we have not seen yet in this country,” Osterholm said.
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I said I disagreed with his assessment when you first brought it up. I don't recall others echoing it. Or calling him out on it.

Turns out he was right for MI and maybe MN. Wrong for the other 48 states.

My claim was that we would have a foothill, but no mountain. I also claimed that CA would hover at the red/purple boundary for a while after restaurants opened.

Turns out, we are hovering at the red/orange boundary- which is where the old red/purple boundary used to be.

I don't feel I was all that far off.
 
dad4 said:
The math and science only tells us what we need to do. It doesn’t tell us how to convince ourselves to do it.

We needed to wear masks and avoid shared indoor spaces. Still do, for a bit.

There isn't much the scientists can do if we insist on listening to twitter feeds instead of scientific journals.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've asked you several times though, with the benefit of quarterbacking, given the cards dealt and the limits of the overton windows, what should have been done and how would it have gone down. Other than to preach to us here, you have no answer beyond "do better".
 
Desert Hound said:
HMM...what exactly were the dems/press saying for the 4 yrs of Trump?

He has his finger on the button.
He is just like Hitler.
He is a Russian stooge.
and on and on and on.

The fear and loathing on the news channels and in print was something to behold. So far from reality it was amazing to watch.

Just watching the Russian story day after day was all about INTENTIONAL partisan rhetoric.

But pretend only one side of the political side does what you claim.
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When someone tells you who they are, over and over and over again, believe them.
 
dad4 said:
I've read enough studies to conclude that masks are a low cost, low annoyance, way to reduce transmission. Together with vaccines, they have a cost/benefit ratio better than anything else we've done.

I'm not going to spend time figuring out exactly how you are misinterpreting to he NIH or EU reports.
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You just don't want to look.

From the NIH.

"Although, scientific evidence supporting facemasks’ efficacy is lacking, adverse physiological, psychological and health effects are established."

Tell us how that is being misinterpreted?

Or

"The physical properties of medical and non-medical facemasks suggest that facemasks are ineffective to block viral particles due to their difference in scales [16], [17], [25]. "

The above is not parsing words. They are pretty clear about what they are saying.

If you want to look at the EU version or the WHO version I can pull up specific quotes where they state that they just cannot show efficacy of masks.

The real issue is you refuse to acknowledge what the main gov bodies are putting about about masks because it goes against what you believe.
 
Grace T. said:
His pandemic response of wishing people were just better, more considerate, more like him is the essence of preaching. He’s basically admitted that in the end he’s preaching instead of advocating math and science based solutions. It’s for that reason the real world mask data is irrelevant to him: in the end it’s the act which is virtuous regardless of whether it has any real world effect. Same with the weekly take out: it’s a ritual act of virtue instead of hey we feel like eating pizza tonight.
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Our leaders failed us, period.
 
Grace T. said:
Yes, I've asked you several times though, with the benefit of quarterbacking, given the cards dealt and the limits of the overton windows, what should have been done and how would it have gone down. Other than to preach to us here, you have no answer beyond "do better".
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That’s because, as soon as I mention any idea of fines for public health violations, you say it would be unconstitutional.

I don’t believe your interpretation. The supreme court upheld fines for public health violations back in 1905. That was a vaccine mandate. If a vaccine mandate is legal, then I‘m sure a mask mandate would be legal.

But, within your assumption that all federal public health mandates are illegal, there isn’t much to say. You’re asking me to come up with a policy, except that the policy can’t require masks, can’t close indoor gatherings, can’t close casinos, can’t limit churches, and can’t be enforced.

If we assume your interpretation, then no sensible policy is possible. You’ve just banned all sensible measures and all enforcement mechanisms.
 
From AZ.


"Dear Colleagues & Families,

Thank you for your patience with us since yesterday, when the Governor announced he is rescinding the mask requirements for K-12 schools."
 
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