5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season

Slobodan said:
No, it isn't, and it won't stop until real females demand that it does. Let them form a tranny league.
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1. you are usually very insightful. I respect your opinions. You can make your points without resorting to vile slurs.
2. As I've noted before, it is very clear at this point that going through puberty with testosterone gives you a natural advantage. In a lot of the individual sports (such as running, boxing and swimming) it is clear that the physical advantage is vast and therefore separate leagues should be considered for adults, particularly at the highest levels where they are in fact doing testosterone screenings. It would also get the FTM (who not having gone through testosterone puberty) a place to play since it is very difficult for them after the fact to catch up with the boys.
3. But for team sports, it is more difficult to get a critical mass or participants so a transgendered/intersexed league would be difficult to put together. The question there is a trade off on how much impact 1 player can really have. For some (like basketball) the problem may not be solveable (but then it is easier to put together a 5 person team). For soccer, it's clear there needs to be a cap on the total number of such players in situations where testosterone is being screened for. So this situation (with five such players) should not happen.
4. Teens and younger are a different story. We don't want to encourage early physical transitions to avoid puberty because they want to play sports. If you aren't performance screening for testosterone and other important drugs, set guidelines around it to avoid the elusive boy that wants to play in a dress to winner a soccer trophy, but don't worry about it too much.
5. odds on this being removed from this forum in 5...4....3....2...1.....?
 
Grace T. said:
1. you are usually very insightful. I respect your opinions. You can make your points without resorting to vile slurs.
2. As I've noted before, it is very clear at this point that going through puberty with testosterone gives you a natural advantage. In a lot of the individual sports (such as running, boxing and swimming) it is clear that the physical advantage is vast and therefore separate leagues should be considered for adults, particularly at the highest levels where they are in fact doing testosterone screenings. It would also get the FTM (who not having gone through testosterone puberty) a place to play since it is very difficult for them after the fact to catch up with the boys.
3. But for team sports, it is more difficult to get a critical mass or participants so a transgendered/intersexed league would be difficult to put together. The question there is a trade off on how much impact 1 player can really have. For some (like basketball) the problem may not be solveable (but then it is easier to put together a 5 person team). For soccer, it's clear there needs to be a cap on the total number of such players in situations where testosterone is being screened for. So this situation (with five such players) should not happen.
4. Teens and younger are a different story. We don't want to encourage early physical transitions to avoid puberty because they want to play sports. If you aren't performance screening for testosterone and other important drugs, set guidelines around it to avoid the elusive boy that wants to play in a dress to winner a soccer trophy, but don't worry about it too much.
5. odds on this being removed from this forum in 5...4....3....2...1.....?
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1) there were no slurs in @Slobodan 's post

​

 
Noticer said:
1) there were no slurs in @Slobodan 's post

​

Click to expand...
Time to crack out the ol translation calculator again. Haven't had a chance to use it in a while since dad4 has been gone a bit. Help me out translator cause I'm having problems wrapping my mind around this statement and I don't get it.

Translator: "I hate that group of people, they aren't worthy of respect, so it doesn't matter what I call them."

Me: "Oh. Duh doy."
 
Grace T. said:
1. you are usually very insightful. I respect your opinions. You can make your points without resorting to vile slurs.
2. As I've noted before, it is very clear at this point that going through puberty with testosterone gives you a natural advantage. In a lot of the individual sports (such as running, boxing and swimming) it is clear that the physical advantage is vast and therefore separate leagues should be considered for adults, particularly at the highest levels where they are in fact doing testosterone screenings. It would also get the FTM (who not having gone through testosterone puberty) a place to play since it is very difficult for them after the fact to catch up with the boys.
3. But for team sports, it is more difficult to get a critical mass or participants so a transgendered/intersexed league would be difficult to put together. The question there is a trade off on how much impact 1 player can really have. For some (like basketball) the problem may not be solveable (but then it is easier to put together a 5 person team). For soccer, it's clear there needs to be a cap on the total number of such players in situations where testosterone is being screened for. So this situation (with five such players) should not happen.
4. Teens and younger are a different story. We don't want to encourage early physical transitions to avoid puberty because they want to play sports. If you aren't performance screening for testosterone and other important drugs, set guidelines around it to avoid the elusive boy that wants to play in a dress to winner a soccer trophy, but don't worry about it too much.
5. odds on this being removed from this forum in 5...4....3....2...1.....?
Click to expand...
Post-puberty defies common sense, but the shelf-life on biological men competing against women isn't very long. We will have isolated incidents here and there, but I don't see it becoming an epidemic. Many athletic organizations are not allowing biological men to compete against women. I don't think a transgender league is necessary, maybe co-ed leagues make more sense. Although, even those leagues limit how many men can be on the field at one time. A controlling ideal in sports is fairness, not "social justice" or politics.
 
watfly said:
Post-puberty defies common sense, but the shelf-life on biological men competing against women isn't very long. We will have isolated incidents here and there, but I don't see it becoming an epidemic. Many athletic organizations are not allowing biological men to compete against women. I don't think a transgender league is necessary, maybe co-ed leagues make more sense. Although, even those leagues limit how many men can be on the field at one time. A controlling ideal in sports is fairness, not "social justice" or politics.
Click to expand...
"Fairness" is an elusive concept, especially since from a Rawlsian perspective we are assigning merit based (in part...yes hard work plays a part in it) on accidents of birth. It is not as easy as saying a level playing field because that level playing field does not exist. One, in part it is a function of the rules which can be adjusted to favor one participant at the expense of another (the age line is an obvious example). For example, if I were to lower the height of a basketball hoop from where it is to 5'5'' shorter people would gain an advantage in defending that basket. Moreover, sports has other values including participation. Indeed, the entire argument for women's sport was not a merit one....in almost all sports women's sports is SUBSTANTIALLY worse so the best women's basketball or soccer game is a worse spectating event than the equivalent men's game on the same level.

I agree, however, that a level playing field is one of the goals we have in sports. Such a level playing field must be balanced with the other concerns such as participations. Otherwise, there is no effective purpose to having a separate women's category. Make it all coed.
 
Grace T. said:
Time to crack out the ol translation calculator again. Haven't had a chance to use it in a while since dad4 has been gone a bit. Help me out translator cause I'm having problems wrapping my mind around this statement and I don't get it.

Translator: "I hate that group of people, they aren't worthy of respect, so it doesn't matter what I call them."

Me: "Oh. Duh doy."
Click to expand...
Like many words in today's society it is wholly dependent on who is saying it as to whether its considered a slur or a term of endearment, and also often dependent on context.

This thread needs to be moved to the Kitchen.
 
watfly said:
Like many words in today's society it is wholly dependent on who is saying it as to whether its considered a slur or a term of endearment, and also often dependent on context.

This thread needs to be moved to the Kitchen.
Click to expand...
Agree...and I note the word that you are referring to that makes this a clear example...very insightful point. HOWEVER, given the history, I sincerely doubt that this was intended as a term of endearment. Agree with you on the second point as well.
 
Grace T. said:
"Fairness" is an elusive concept, especially since from a Rawlsian perspective we are assigning merit based (in part...yes hard work plays a part in it) on accidents of birth. It is not as easy as saying a level playing field because that level playing field does not exist. One, in part it is a function of the rules which can be adjusted to favor one participant at the expense of another (the age line is an obvious example). For example, if I were to lower the height of a basketball hoop from where it is to 5'5'' shorter people would gain an advantage in defending that basket. Moreover, sports has other values including participation. Indeed, the entire argument for women's sport was not a merit one....in almost all sports women's sports is SUBSTANTIALLY worse so the best women's basketball or soccer game is a worse spectating event than the equivalent men's game on the same level.

I agree, however, that a level playing field is one of the goals we have in sports. Such a level playing field must be balanced with the other concerns such as participations. Otherwise, there is no effective purpose to having a separate women's category. Make it all coed.
Click to expand...
This is probably why we don't let philosophy majors determine rules of sport. ;)
 
watfly said:
This is probably why we don't let philosophy majors determine rules of sport. ;)
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Love it. :p I note, however, our basic understanding of sports and merits which were inherited from the Greeks and Romans are due to Aristotle and his magic flute. It is because of philosophy in part we have such traditions in the west, and why the Olympic games were revived.
 
Grace T. said:
Agree...and I note the word that you are referring to that makes this a clear example...very insightful point. HOWEVER, given the history, I sincerely doubt that this was intended as a term of endearment. Agree with you on the second point as well.
Click to expand...
Speaking of philosophy...I do find it fascinating that certain groups have ownership of certain words while others do not. This seems like a more recent phenomena, but my memory is foggy from my younger days.
 
Grace T. said:
1. you are usually very insightful. I respect your opinions. You can make your points without resorting to vile slurs.
2. As I've noted before, it is very clear at this point that going through puberty with testosterone gives you a natural advantage. In a lot of the individual sports (such as running, boxing and swimming) it is clear that the physical advantage is vast and therefore separate leagues should be considered for adults, particularly at the highest levels where they are in fact doing testosterone screenings. It would also get the FTM (who not having gone through testosterone puberty) a place to play since it is very difficult for them after the fact to catch up with the boys.
3. But for team sports, it is more difficult to get a critical mass or participants so a transgendered/intersexed league would be difficult to put together. The question there is a trade off on how much impact 1 player can really have. For some (like basketball) the problem may not be solveable (but then it is easier to put together a 5 person team). For soccer, it's clear there needs to be a cap on the total number of such players in situations where testosterone is being screened for. So this situation (with five such players) should not happen.
4. Teens and younger are a different story. We don't want to encourage early physical transitions to avoid puberty because they want to play sports. If you aren't performance screening for testosterone and other important drugs, set guidelines around it to avoid the elusive boy that wants to play in a dress to winner a soccer trophy, but don't worry about it too much.
5. odds on this being removed from this forum in 5...4....3....2...1.....?
Click to expand...
Appreciate the kind words. LOL... 3... 2... 1...

I would have NO problem with a FTM playing against other males. And yes, it would be difficult to find enough transsexuals to form a team, let alone a league, but I see that being of secondary importance to this, Grace. There are a lot of things we can't do for various reasons. Allowing males to use a female bathroom or locker room is bad enough. Somehow we managed to go centuries, as a species, with one or the other and no exceptions.

I don't think even 1 male should be allowed. There's absolutely no reason for it. If there's a coed league, which there are in both youth and adult leagues, there's your calling. Not everyone has what they want available to them. I don't lose a wink of sleep if a male, transitioning to a female, at any age, isn't allowed to play a female sport.
 
Noticer said:
1) there were no slurs in @Slobodan 's post

​

Click to expand...
Thanks... but many consider "tranny" a slur. Maybe it's fluid... like gender in 2024. I remember a time when "queer" was a slur. Especially if you were trying to smear one back in the day. Now it's a cool and accepted term... depending on the day, time of day and who is using it.
 
watfly said:
Post-puberty defies common sense, but the shelf-life on biological men competing against women isn't very long. We will have isolated incidents here and there, but I don't see it becoming an epidemic. Many athletic organizations are not allowing biological men to compete against women. I don't think a transgender league is necessary, maybe co-ed leagues make more sense. Although, even those leagues limit how many men can be on the field at one time. A controlling ideal in sports is fairness, not "social justice" or politics.
Click to expand...
... and to your point, when I played soccer in a co-ed league, men couldn't physically take the ball from women and the female goals counted as 2 points instead of 1.

But I digress.
 
Slobodan said:
Appreciate the kind words. LOL... 3... 2... 1...

I would have NO problem with a FTM playing against other males. And yes, it would be difficult to find enough transsexuals to form a team, let alone a league, but I see that being of secondary importance to this, Grace. There are a lot of things we can't do for various reasons. Allowing males to use a female bathroom or locker room is bad enough. Somehow we managed to go centuries, as a species, with one or the other and no exceptions.

I don't think even 1 male should be allowed. There's absolutely no reason for it. If there's a coed league, which there are in both youth and adult leagues, there's your calling. Not everyone has what they want available to them. I don't lose a wink of sleep if a male, transitioning to a female, at any age, isn't allowed to play a female sport.
Click to expand...
While I agree with some of what you say, again I point out participation is a concern for sports. Otherwise women should not have a separate category and everything should just be coed. Unless you quota the coed teams, I think you’d agree they’d quickly become all male.
 
Slobodan said:
Thanks... but many consider "tranny" a slur. Maybe it's fluid... like gender in 2024. I remember a time when "queer" was a slur. Especially if you were trying to smear one back in the day. Now it's a cool and accepted term... depending on the day, time of day and who is using it.
Click to expand...
I lived in Hawaii in the early 70's and we had what would be in today's world a very culturally insensitive term for flip flops besides the most common names at that time of "go aheads" and "thongs". At the time, we didn't think much about it as it was in common use and there was no love loss in Hawaii for what happened at Pearl Harbor. Of course, I don't think any one today would appreciate me saying I'm going to wear my thongs to the beach, either.
 
watfly said:
Speaking of philosophy...I do find it fascinating that certain groups have ownership of certain words while others do not. This seems like a more recent phenomena, but my memory is foggy from my younger days.
Click to expand...
I think the post modernists (they aren’t always wrong…even a stopped clock strikes twice) have actually a pretty good take on it. Once the word moves beyond the pale, there’s some cred/rehabilitation in recapturing the word and making it yours. It reduces the power of the word. But it also means that certain people can use it and others can’t….which makes it offensive to those that can’t since everyone wants that power. A South Park was illlustrative when Cartman claimed a disability to be at liberty to say any word he wanted.
 
Slobodan said:
Appreciate the kind words. LOL... 3... 2... 1...

I would have NO problem with a FTM playing against other males. And yes, it would be difficult to find enough transsexuals to form a team, let alone a league, but I see that being of secondary importance to this, Grace. There are a lot of things we can't do for various reasons. Allowing males to use a female bathroom or locker room is bad enough. Somehow we managed to go centuries, as a species, with one or the other and no exceptions.

I don't think even 1 male should be allowed. There's absolutely no reason for it. If there's a coed league, which there are in both youth and adult leagues, there's your calling. Not everyone has what they want available to them. I don't lose a wink of sleep if a male, transitioning to a female, at any age, isn't allowed to play a female sport.
Click to expand...
Like I said over in the kitchen, if your born with a penis, you can only play with the boys. If your born with a vagina and want to compete against the men, then you can. I sorry, but that's how the law of nature goes in my brain. It's 100% unfair to win a women's league title with men.
 
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watfly said:
I don't think any one today would appreciate me saying I'm going to wear my thongs to the beach, either.
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You are 100% correct, TMI BTW!!! Watty going to Blacks Beach with espola in a thong is way too hot and this kind of chat needs to be taken over in the kitchen where the truth belongs.
 
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