5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season
- Thread starter Veritas
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Well can you answer my question ? I believe that all of these legality issues with trans mtf even being considered to compete in biological women sports stems from this root issue. If your answer is a biological female with xx chromosomes then there is no court argument. If not then you are also part of the problem for supporting this ridiculous narrative of gender identity. This made up science of biological sex being a spectrum is the problem. Itās male or female and anything outside of that is an outlier. Simply an error in the genetic code is anything outside of binary. Non binary is the biggest joke in human history. It simply does not exist in reality
@Grace T. Here is the reality Grace and I respect all your arguments and povās but if you canāt provide us with a simple definition of the meaning of the word woman, then we will never come close to a resolution but continue in an endless infinite mathematical loop. Because if we canāt come to terms in agreement to what that means then we are talkng apples 
to oranges.
to oranges.Because your wrong. That's not the issue. It's IRRELEVANT. The factors looked at are level playing field, safety, efficiency, and participation. It's the standard which was established in Title IX (again, you lost that fight decades ago when they went all in for equality in Title IX....this is to some extent getting hoisted by your own petard....had the conclusion been men and women like sports differently so it's o.k. if men have more access to scholarships and there are more men's sports, then this argument could now hold water, but it was already conceded to get Title IX into place). The law is concerned with individual rights, not chromosomes and certainly (except for Scalia's lone dissent) the integrity of the sport.
As for the "gender identity" narrative, again I don't buy into the idea that gender is a spectrum. In fact, all the science is contra. At least with respect to true transpeople (e.g., not the nonbinary who are just uncomfortable with the expressions of their birth gender, or a cross dresser doing a drag show), all the evidence points to it being a neurological condition, though dad4 is quite correct to point out we don't know yet exactly the nature of that condition.
My question back to you is again, for what purpose? For what context? If it's purely biological, it's xx, xy, but a. not everyone fits into that definition (there are those with errant chromosomes), and b. it's irrelevant for purposes of the law which is concerned with rights, not chromosomes and certainly not the integrity of the sport.@Grace T. Here is the reality Grace and I respect all your arguments and povās but if you canāt provide us with a simple definition of the meaning of the word woman, then we will never come close to a resolution but continue in an endless infinite mathematical loop. Because if we canāt come to terms in agreement to what that means then we are talkng apples
You may have addressed this before, but where do you stand with an XX with masculine features and excessive testosterone, should they be allowed to compete against women?
Noticer
SILVER
and you're not a leftist. Riiiiiiiight.
If I was my leftist credentials would be revoked for a. suggesting that gender is NOT a spectrum, and b. disagreeing that trans (whether MTF or FTM) can play in whatever sports category they want without limitation for the sake of participation and everyone else has to suck it.
Again my voting record is Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Obama, Romney, Didn't Vote, Trump, and don't know what I'm doing now (hate both of them). I'm the elusive undecided voter that is as center as they come and will be pushed one way or another by the side that disgusts her least (and y'alls on BOTH sides are making it hard....real hard....like how is every election I ever participated in worse than the one that came before it).
I think we have and I agree that they should be allowed to compete with biological woman because they are just that. But there is a big BUT in thisā¦
Due to the fact there is no clear-cut way to distinguish between natural high testosterone levels and doping, I believe they need to be given the options to adjust their T levels if they wish to enter the biological arena.
Grace, let me break this down. A trans woman (MTF) is, by definition, a trans woman not a biological woman. We can't ignore this distinction because, biologically, they can never be real women. This matters for one simple reason... the entire argument for including trans women in women's sports is based on treating them as if they are the same as biological women, but they arenāt. They have a different biology, and thatās the crux of the issue imo.
When trans women were men, they were excluded from womenās sports, and no one batted an eye. They competed where their biology placed them. But now, because they've transitioned, we're suddenly expected to act like theyāve become women in every sense? They still carry the biological advantages that came from male development like greater muscle mass and bone density, advantages that donāt just disappear with hormone therapy. The fact remains though... they are trans women, not biological women. So, if they were excluded as men, why should they now be allowed to compete against women? The biological facts haven't changed right Grace?
This is where we canāt start handing out special rights. Being trans should not give someone a pass to override the biological distinctions that protect fairness in sports. We canāt create a separate set of rules just because someone transitions... this clearly undermines the entire structure of competitive categories. If we start making special exceptions for trans women, then weāre erasing the very point of having womenās categories to begin with. Theyāre there to ensure fair competition among biological equals only.
And here's why weāre even in court over this... smh... because weāve changed the definition of something that used to be objective. It used to be simple... man, woman, based on biology. But now, with shifting definitions, weāre treating something subjective (gender identity) as though it overrides biological reality. This is why weāre in a mess of legal battles, because weāve taken what was once clear-cut and muddied it with exceptions and redefinitions. The courts are involved precisely because weāve tried to change the rules to fit a narrative that biology doesnāt support.
So to conclude this argument, trans women arenāt biological women period. And they shouldnāt be given special rights in sports just because theyāve transitioned or have been placed in a special group. Especially in sports at the highest level... We canāt ignore biological reality for the sake of inclusion. Thatās why fairness in competition demands we hold the line. Really how can anyone with common sense argue this fact? The fact that trans women are NOT WOMEN. This has been proven by biology and itās the fundamental flaw in all courts entertaining this ridiculous argument. Mic Drop...
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Thanks for being open. PT is where I was going with the whole male therapist, just FYI but like I said, thanks for being open with the group. By the way, f you had a "regular" massage by a male, you would most likely remember that time bro.Since you're asking, I will answer.I have no problem with a man giving me a massage. I've had many a PT massage done by a man, but I can't recall if I've ever had a "regular" massage done by a guy. Is that apples and oranges? IDK. KInda one in the same to me.
Welcome to the club bro. I hold the record of trophies awarded but I'm looking to retire very soon. I have been reported the most as well.
Mr. Rodgers taught me this when I was a young boy.
Watch: https://1a-1791.com/video/s8/2/9/_/D/J/9_DJt.caa.mp4?b=1&u=ummtf
Watch: https://1a-1791.com/video/s8/2/9/_/D/J/9_DJt.caa.mp4?b=1&u=ummtf
I'm really starting to question it now. Could Grace really be a leftist in disguise if she agrees with this gender narrative? Very possible
Matt Walsh did a brilliant documentary on What is a Woman... You guys should watch it... Brilliant documentary that really exposes the leftists narrative behind gender identity.
www.documentaryarea.com
He has also just released his new comedy in theatres now. "Am i racist? Great film exposing leftist narrative.
What Is a Woman
It's the question you're not allowed to ask. The documentary they don't want you to see. Are gender......
www.documentaryarea.com
He has also just released his new comedy in theatres now. "Am i racist? Great film exposing leftist narrative.
With my memory, no. Plus its not really anything that would stand out in my mind. I used to go to a place in PB regularly because the place trained massage therapists and it was cheap.
Did you vote for Hillary? Crooked Joe? Everyone you voted are all the same wolf in sheep's clothing. Hate is very strong word, but it is the times we live in. The people WHO hate Trump have tried to kill him numerous times. My liberal pal told me off the record that if Trump was ASSasinated, his view of the country would be better. This guy is so scared of Trump. It makes me wonder what he has hidden in his closets.
Well, Tulsi (who I adore) is voting for Trump so I suppose anything is possible.
NO! If that's what you think then you haven't been paying attention for 50 odd pages. That's not the entire argument. That's not even THE argument except amongst some leftist (and rightist like Walsh) loons. The argument is that everyone, man, woman or trans, is entitled to a sports playing field that is reasonably level, reasonably safe, participatory and efficient. You don't get to say to any one group "we don't care, you don't matter".
OMG, whether you realize it or not you just made the argument trans people aren't entitled to rights??? Now, you've shown yourself to be extremely thoughtful so I'm fairly certain you aren't a bigot and are in an entirely different category as Slobi (and maybe pew who continues to avoid answering the uncomfortable questions). But there's no such thing as a "special" right. Something is a right, or it isn't. It's not special because an African American, or woman, or Jew or gay person asks for it. And the unfortunate reality is that no one here has been able to give a non-bigoted reason for why trans people aren't entitled to rights. What you just laid out here is a very radical, very shocking hard right position (akin to trans people get in the back of the bus, we don't care). I don't think you mean that.
No you're wrong here too. You do know that for over 50 years (since they first started performing transgender care) there were standards in place by the sports governing boards with rules that sought to provide over when MTF could participate in the women's sport. Those rules were written on a sports by sports basis. So it's always been complicated....since this issue arose it has never been simple. Three things changed. 1. It's been coming out in the last 10 years how much of an impact puberty actually has on development. The doctors used to think they could correct for that, for example by being x number of years post puberty It turns out that in at least some sports, you can't. we didn't know this because there were so few trans athletes that a study could simply not be made until the numbers recently increased; 2. title IX came and a lot of the arguments made here about needing full equality were raised by the men but were dismissed at the time (same in Europe BTW)...again a lot of the discrimination rubric is now defenders of women's sports getting hoisted by their own petard on the arguments they made in favor of title ix equal treatment; and 3. the left made it their position that gender is a spectrum and anyone should be free to play wherever they feel. But this is a situation which was relatively stabled for 40 years until the consensus was blown up. Did you not know the history of this? So it's not it's been this way forever, leftists why are you changing it? Both left and right, as well as new scientific understandings, blew up the consensus. But make no mistake, what YOU are arguing for is a different way of looking at it than what has happened the last 40 years.
So to conclude this argument, trans women arenāt biological women period. And they shouldnāt be given special rights in sports just because theyāve transitioned or have been placed in a special group. Especially in sports at the highest level... We canāt ignore biological reality for the sake of inclusion. Thatās why fairness in competition demands we hold the line. Really how can anyone with common sense argue this fact? The fact that trans women are NOT WOMEN. This has been proven by biology and itās the fundamental flaw in all courts entertaining this ridiculous argument. Mic Drop...
Again biology is irrelevant to this question. It's a question of individual rights since everyone has a right to a reasonably level playing field, to be reasonably safe, to participation and to efficiency. Yes I agree sports at the highest level is especially about the level playing field. But it is not the only value, particularly as you move down the pyramid.
As to the legalities, again there are different rubrics you have to squeeze this into. That's really all your choices:
1. Discrimination (in which case the result is MTF in F FTM in M; or MTF in M and FTM in F even if testosterone; take out what matters in sports...remove the merits and scholarships; or MTF and FTM in M but handicap the men...Scalia compared that to a Kurt Vonnaugut (sp?) story). Your simple solution depends on who has the power to ram it through.
2. Disability (in which case you must make an accommodation but only to the extent reasonable) or
3. No protection (in which case you have to have a way to distinguish why trans individuals are not entitled to rights, particularly if there is a neurological component, and no calling them "special" doesn't handwaive them away).
Prediction time. Based on the information dad4 provided with respect to Fina, I suspect the ECJ is going to go the disability route. The US in part depends on the election (which makes this issue somewhat winner take all) but eventually we are going to have a problem with an athlete in California being not allowed to play in Florida and an equal protection of the laws case goes up to the Supreme Court (whoever controls it at the time). As I wrote previously, given the Olympics are to be hosted in Los Angeles, there's a lot of room for some enterprising leftists to make mischief. If you think it's a mess now, errrr...wait until 2028 (and no, I suspect given who runs Florida and California I don't think the federal courts are going to settle this regardless of who wins the 2024 election...I don't see either Florida or California backing down).
I don't how you are able to articulate so fast Grace but let me start with this one
Grace, I see how you interpreted my point, but I want to clarify. First stop putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
When I say we canāt hand out special rights, Iām referring to changing the competitive structure of womenās sports to accommodate individuals who have gone through male puberty and retain those physical advantages. Itās not about denying trans people their rights in general, itās about preserving the fairness of competition that womenās sports were created to protect. Sports arenāt about identity; theyāre about physical capability, and thatās why we separate athletes based on biology in the first place. This you don't seem to comprehend.
So no, Iām not advocating for trans people to be āput in the back of the bus.ā Iām saying that in the specific context of competitive sports, the rules need to reflect biological realities to maintain fairness. This isnāt about denying trans rights; itās about ensuring that womenās sports remain a fair competition between biological women. Thatās not a radical position itās one rooted in the integrity of the game. I'll get back to you on the rest later... lol I have no time now.
Grace, I see how you interpreted my point, but I want to clarify. First stop putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
This isnāt about denying trans people their rights far from it. Everyone, including trans people, is entitled to basic human rights, like dignity, respect, and freedom from discrimination. What Iām talking about here is specific to sports, which are built on the concept of fair competition within biological categories.
When I say we canāt hand out special rights, Iām referring to changing the competitive structure of womenās sports to accommodate individuals who have gone through male puberty and retain those physical advantages. Itās not about denying trans people their rights in general, itās about preserving the fairness of competition that womenās sports were created to protect. Sports arenāt about identity; theyāre about physical capability, and thatās why we separate athletes based on biology in the first place. This you don't seem to comprehend.
So no, Iām not advocating for trans people to be āput in the back of the bus.ā Iām saying that in the specific context of competitive sports, the rules need to reflect biological realities to maintain fairness. This isnāt about denying trans rights; itās about ensuring that womenās sports remain a fair competition between biological women. Thatās not a radical position itās one rooted in the integrity of the game. I'll get back to you on the rest later... lol I have no time now.