NEW Referee Abuse Policy

[Orangeteam]

In a game with a full stadium you can't clearly hear individual insults from the crowd. You know when they disagree with something because the tone changes, but thats about it.
A small venue like a club game, or a GA or ECNL finals, the games aren't much more than 100-200 people so it's easier to hear the those who want to protest, or worse.

I'd say if you are a spectator or player that gets reported under this new guideline my guess is you will not have the benefit of the doubt in these cases. Refs will have the upper hand on any infraction filed.

Better behavior is probably the best path

 

[TopesWin]

One of the main issues which leads to bad decision making is being completely out of touch with how the real world works, and living in a delusional fantasy world. People in that state use their view of the world to evaluate how decisions might go, and then are shocked when they make the situation worse.

Here's a potentially helpful thought experiment: think about the last time you were really upset about some perceived governance injustice, and then think if the governing body told the people who were upset to "sit down, shut up, we don't care what you think, we do what we want, your opinion means nothing". Do you really think those people are going to become respectful and positive toward those governing officials after being berated and ignored repeatedly (or perhaps imprisoned, or worse)?

... cause that's what you just said, and if you think about it a little, you might come to understand how dumb and unrealistic it is. People don't work like that. What this policy would almost certainly do is cause escalation, because people would feel like there's no other route to be heard.

Intelligent people, particularly those with any experience in leadership, understand this. We probably could use a couple of those people in US Soccer, before the current situation gets worse, and leads to something more than verbal abuse.

You're one of the most obnoxious coaches I've ever had to watch, and you yell the dumbest shit at the refs any time your team is losing. And that happens A LOT, since you can't develop players for shit. Screaming "run" at your players isn't development, but that's all you're capable of. Your roster craters every season and you have to dupe new families every year. But people are finally starting to catch on: Club team is the weakest team in an low-level league and high school team lost every game. And they used to be so good! You yelled so loudly when you thought your team was going to beat us - it was so fun to watch you shit the bed that night!

Every semi-intelligent parent ran for the exits and the bottom is dropping out. Have fun trying to recruit next year when you're completely exposed.

So yeah, shut the fuck up on the sidelines.

 

[sigmabody]

You're one of the most obnoxious coaches I've ever had to watch...

I'm not a coach. The rest of your comment is pretty stupid in that context.

 

[Zeke]

They getting paid don't they?
I wouldn't call that "giving up their Saturdays"

The adult refs I work with mostly have professional careers. This isn’t their main job, and they do have other places they could choose to be.

The pay is about $50 for a 2 hour time commitment. That’s not enough to put up with some idiot yelling “terrible game ref” because his kid’s team lost.

Fortunately, there are also the kids who say thank you, which helps make up for the lawnchair loudmouths.

 

[Grace T.]

The adult refs I work with mostly have professional careers. This isn’t their main job, and they do have other places they could choose to be.

The pay is about $50 for a 2 hour time commitment. That’s not enough to put up with some idiot yelling “terrible game ref” because his kid’s team lost.

Fortunately, there are also the kids who say thank you, which helps make up for the lawnchair loudmouths.

I mean think about it. You can pull down $20 hr plus benefits working at McDonald’s ($22 hr at in and out). Some private trainers are charging $100 hr these days for private session. Let alone compare the rate to what a plumber or carpenter now makes per hour, let alone a lawyer. Plus you don’t have to put up with the abuse, if you have multiple games per day you don’t have to exhaust yourself, plus all the unpaid trainings requirements and meetings. We get what we pay for.

 

[CaliR1]

I really hope the ref complaining/yelling gets tampered down. Look at what Real Madrid just did...it undermines the entirety of the sport and sets an example for kids that they should blame and complain first.

Most refs that do that job at an amateur level are doing it because they love the sport and want to see if thrive and do well. Without refs, there are no games.

 

[sigmabody]

I really hope the ref complaining/yelling gets tampered down. Look at what Real Madrid just did...it undermines the entirety of the sport and sets an example for kids that they should blame and complain first.

Most refs that do that job at an amateur level are doing it because they love the sport and want to see if thrive and do well. Without refs, there are no games.

I'd speculate that, if anything, the new harsher policy against complains will build more resentment against referees, and feeling that games are officiated unfairly, and extend that resentment to the organizing body as well. As I tried to explain before directly and via analogy, when people perceive there's an issue, and the response is "sit down, shut up, and accept it", that rarely (if ever) leads to positive feelings and improved perceptions.

Moreover, anyone who thinks this policy will have that effect is pretty clearly delusional.

In contrast, one could also look to professional sports to see what might actually work to improve the perception of officiating efficacy. For example:
- The NBA does transparent reviews of some parts of games after the fact, calling out when officials made bad calls
- Most sports with replay have some type of challenge system
- At the professional level, there is some concept of "reviews" for officials, and only the officials with the least complains and best records (in terms of number and severity of complaints) are assigned to the more important matches
- Corruption is taken seriously, investigated, and officials who are found guilty are punished; leagues do this openly to promote an image of fairness, which they try to maintain
- There is virtually no actions taken against fans/spectators, ever (as among other things, there's an expectation that the fans will be biased and/or not understand the rules entirely); in general, the fans follow the lead of the coaching staff in professional sports

Maybe after this backfires and someone gets more hurt, US Soccer will reconsider.

 

[Grace T.]

I'd speculate that, if anything, the new harsher policy against complains will build more resentment against referees, and feeling that games are officiated unfairly, and extend that resentment to the organizing body as well. As I tried to explain before directly and via analogy, when people perceive there's an issue, and the response is "sit down, shut up, and accept it", that rarely (if ever) leads to positive feelings and improved perceptions.

Moreover, anyone who thinks this policy will have that effect is pretty clearly delusional.

In contrast, one could also look to professional sports to see what might actually work to improve the perception of officiating efficacy. For example:
- The NBA does transparent reviews of some parts of games after the fact, calling out when officials made bad calls
- Most sports with replay have some type of challenge system
- At the professional level, there is some concept of "reviews" for officials, and only the officials with the least complains and best records (in terms of number and severity of complaints) are assigned to the more important matches
- Corruption is taken seriously, investigated, and officials who are found guilty are punished; leagues do this openly to promote an image of fairness, which they try to maintain
- There is virtually no actions taken against fans/spectators, ever (as among other things, there's an expectation that the fans will be biased and/or not understand the rules entirely); in general, the fans follow the lead of the coaching staff in professional sports

Maybe after this backfires and someone gets more hurt, US Soccer will reconsider.

I disagree that no actions are taken against fans. Security is called in say if you throw something at a ref. You also can't call them certain words or the club will get sanctioned in most professional sports.

 

[CaliR1]

I'd speculate that, if anything, the new harsher policy against complains will build more resentment against referees, and feeling that games are officiated unfairly, and extend that resentment to the organizing body as well. As I tried to explain before directly and via analogy, when people perceive there's an issue, and the response is "sit down, shut up, and accept it", that rarely (if ever) leads to positive feelings and improved perceptions.

Moreover, anyone who thinks this policy will have that effect is pretty clearly delusional.

In contrast, one could also look to professional sports to see what might actually work to improve the perception of officiating efficacy. For example:
- The NBA does transparent reviews of some parts of games after the fact, calling out when officials made bad calls
- Most sports with replay have some type of challenge system
- At the professional level, there is some concept of "reviews" for officials, and only the officials with the least complains and best records (in terms of number and severity of complaints) are assigned to the more important matches
- Corruption is taken seriously, investigated, and officials who are found guilty are punished; leagues do this openly to promote an image of fairness, which they try to maintain
- There is virtually no actions taken against fans/spectators, ever (as among other things, there's an expectation that the fans will be biased and/or not understand the rules entirely); in general, the fans follow the lead of the coaching staff in professional sports

Maybe after this backfires and someone gets more hurt, US Soccer will reconsider.

But you are talking about professional level referees that are being paid a lot of money and the audience of a sport is the customer. You are also talking about billions of dollars at stake. You cannot apply the standard to referee of amateur sport.

Even for pros, there is a limit (usually verbal protests) about what you can do or not do toward a ref...players and coaches get ejected by refs all the time. Heck in baseball, you get automatically ejected for arguing balls and strikes. Fans get more leeway because they are largely hurling verbal assault but you if go on the field or accost a referee, you are going to get removed by security and likely banned from attending future games.

Unless there is a reason to doubt the impartiality of a referee, it is just a matter of opinion and/or honest mistakes. Now bad referees should be noted and removed but this should be done by the league through proper protest method, not parents screaming and yelling at the games.

 

[sigmabody]

Even for pros, there is a limit (usually verbal protests) about what you can do or not do toward a ref...players and coaches get ejected by refs all the time. Heck in baseball, you get automatically ejected for arguing balls and strikes. Fans get more leeway because they are largely hurling verbal assault but you if go on the field or accost a referee, you are going to get removed by security and likely banned from attending future games.

Unless there is a reason to doubt the impartiality of a referee, it is just a matter of opinion and/or honest mistakes. Now bad referees should be noted and removed but this should be done by the league through proper protest method, not parents screaming and yelling at the games.

I agree with those statements. I think physical altercations should be punishable, certainly, and players and coaches should still be held accountable for civil interactions during games.

I'm also not suggesting that the feedback method be who can shout the loudest from the sidelines; I was suggesting some sort of method to provide feedback after the fact, which would allow parents/coaches the ability to express if/when they thought an official was poor (quality or conduct). This could then be used, optionally and in a relative sense, to measure the performance of the officials. It would also give parents an alternative and acceptable outlet to express perceived frustrations with officiating, rather than doing so on the sidelines and/or in the parking lots. I speculate that this could potentially reduce the amount of on-field expressed frustrations as well, particularly if there was some visible effects from said reporting (even if that's just statistics in aggregate on a site somewhere). Fundamentally, people like to feel as if their opinions are being heard and considered, and tend to escalate if/when they feel they are being ignored (gestures at the political sphere).

All of that is to say: I agree with the goal, I just don't think the proposal moves the youth game toward that goal (and in fact, probably moves it away from that goal). I'd prefer if US Soccer was part of an improvement here, and not just magnifying the problem.

 

[espola]

I really hope the ref complaining/yelling gets tampered down. Look at what Real Madrid just did...it undermines the entirety of the sport and sets an example for kids that they should blame and complain first.

Most refs that do that job at an amateur level are doing it because they love the sport and want to see if thrive and do well. Without refs, there are no games.

What Real Madrid did was seek (and ultimately obtain) justice through existing channels.

"After huge errors in Madrid’s defeat to Espanyol, the president of the referee committee in Spain called an urgent meeting."

Ten referees punished after controversial calls go against Madrid

After huge errors in Madrid’s defeat to Espanyol, the president of the referee committee in Spain called an urgent meeting.

en.as.com

 

[CaliR1]

What Real Madrid did was seek (and ultimately obtain) justice through existing channels.

"After huge errors in Madrid’s defeat to Espanyol, the president of the referee committee in Spain called an urgent meeting."

Ten referees punished after controversial calls go against Madrid

After huge errors in Madrid’s defeat to Espanyol, the president of the referee committee in Spain called an urgent meeting.

en.as.com

Yeah...that's nothing more than La Liga trying to placate one of its biggest moneymakers. It set a bad precedent...refs will now be more timid in making calls against Real Madrid and undermine the integrity of the game. I am bias against RM after their tantrum with the Ballon d'Or and watching Vini Jr. being the soccer version of James Harden.

The issue is not with the protest...every team protest. The issue is the basis of the challenge and the intimation that there is a conspiracy of some sort against RM, who has gotten the benefit of so many questionable calls in the past. It would like Chiefs complaining about the refs being biased against them.

 

[CaliR1]

I agree with those statements. I think physical altercations should be punishable, certainly, and players and coaches should still be held accountable for civil interactions during games.

I'm also not suggesting that the feedback method be who can shout the loudest from the sidelines; I was suggesting some sort of method to provide feedback after the fact, which would allow parents/coaches the ability to express if/when they thought an official was poor (quality or conduct). This could then be used, optionally and in a relative sense, to measure the performance of the officials. It would also give parents an alternative and acceptable outlet to express perceived frustrations with officiating, rather than doing so on the sidelines and/or in the parking lots. I speculate that this could potentially reduce the amount of on-field expressed frustrations as well, particularly if there was some visible effects from said reporting (even if that's just statistics in aggregate on a site somewhere). Fundamentally, people like to feel as if their opinions are being heard and considered, and tend to escalate if/when they feel they are being ignored (gestures at the political sphere).

All of that is to say: I agree with the goal, I just don't think the proposal moves the youth game toward that goal (and in fact, probably moves it away from that goal). I'd prefer if US Soccer was part of an improvement here, and not just magnifying the problem.

With all due respect, I think that this is a very naive view of the situation. The individuals who engage in abusive conduct on the field are not going to be placated by some post match protest mechanism that may have some minor effects. I would argue that most of those people taken outside of the context of youth sports are decent people that would consider similar actions elsewhere to be inappropriate and shocking (Karens and Kens aside). I would also argue that almost all them, given enough time to cool down, would be ashamed of their behavior.

I am only starting on this journey of being a soccer dad but when I first started, I was the biggest yeller and animated person on the sidelines. It took some time and conversations with my son to realize my toxic behavior and to shut the heck up. I feel like people want to normalize their own bad behavior and blame external factors rather just saying, it's my fault and I need to deal with it.

The sole responsibility of such conduct is on the people who engaged in the conduct, any policies instituted to protect the refs are for line drawing and formal punishment/consequences. It is not up to the league to figure out how to placate toxic/angry people who cannot control their emotions.

 

[Frank]

Recently reffed a game where I had to issue a red for a cleat to the head area. Obvious to all on the field but on the opposite side of the head of parents so a bit harder for the them to see as it was not a square hit. Coaches never even complained. So guess whose dad I had to toss 5 minutes later who proceeded to tell me to F off and flip me off. I couldn’t have been more right and the subsequent video proved it, however dad is so caught up that his kid couldn’t have done this and the ref must suck. Parents need to understand that as a ref I don’t care what team you are or what player you are. I’m just trying to get it right. Perfect, never. Attempting to be, always. This parents reaction was over the top and increased penalties for this stuff has to happen as many refs are tired of this abuse. This is a Big reason why I limit my club games now. I’ll focus on college, high school and higher end club games.

 

[Orangeteam]

If DOCs and ref assignors were more thoughtful about how they assign their referees, and be clear about which refs take the center position in certain games you would see a positive benefit right away.
What happens often times is that same three refs just stay on the same field regardless of who is playing and you end up with experienced refs managing games that don't require them.

Here's an example
I talked to friend who told me he officated a game last fall that ended 8-1. I think it was an '09 game.
He said the game next to him was the top match between the '08 teams. Always close, always highly charged and physical. For the league match up this was either #1v#2 or #1v#3. There was a less experienced crew on that game.
I've seen the film and the center ref did not manage the game well and did not manage the fact that one of the kids was targeted blatantly and agressively over and over. It was clear he wasn't ready for this level of game

You have much greater skill differences at the grade 7-9 level which is for the most part what you get at the club level. So what games refs are assigned has an impact on the performance.

 

[sigmabody]

Recently reffed a game where I had to issue a red for a cleat to the head area. Obvious to all on the field but on the opposite side of the head of parents so a bit harder for the them to see as it was not a square hit. Coaches never even complained. So guess whose dad I had to toss 5 minutes later who proceeded to tell me to F off and flip me off. I couldn’t have been more right and the subsequent video proved it, however dad is so caught up that his kid couldn’t have done this and the ref must suck. Parents need to understand that as a ref I don’t care what team you are or what player you are. I’m just trying to get it right. Perfect, never. Attempting to be, always. This parents reaction was over the top and increased penalties for this stuff has to happen as many refs are tired of this abuse. This is a Big reason why I limit my club games now. I’ll focus on college, high school and higher end club games.

Thinking about it, and certainly anecdotally, I don't think I've ever gotten frustrated with an official for making a call (even if/when it was my kid getting called or carded, and I felt the call was incorrect). I have enough experience as a ref that I know it's hard, and there will be bad calls, and I teach my kid as much. The only times I've become frustrated (and they are rare) are when there are non-calls, and it seems like the game is getting dangerous for the kids as a result.

And my kid gets fouled a lot, fwiw; as an example, in a tournament game last year (State Cup, iirc), the ref actually told the other team near half time to stop fouling my kid, specifically, after they had fouled him 5+ times and the ref had carded one of their players for repeated fouls. They seemed to be targeting him specifically, and the ref had made some calls, and missed some others. Overall, though, I thought that ref was great, and I'd have given him a very positive review overall if I could have: he kept the game under control and the players safe-ish, and I had no significant concerns.

Agree that there are parents who are dicks. I've probably been told I suck as a ref more times than I can count over the years; doesn't really bother me much, but agree it can add up. I don't know that just trying to force parents to shut up rather than venting verbally is going to be a net positive, but I could be wrong.

 

[TopesWin]

With all due respect, I think that this is a very naive view of the situation. The individuals who engage in abusive conduct on the field are not going to be placated by some post match protest mechanism that may have some minor effects. I would argue that most of those people taken outside of the context of youth sports are decent people that would consider similar actions elsewhere to be inappropriate and shocking (Karens and Kens aside). I would also argue that almost all them, given enough time to cool down, would be ashamed of their behavior.

I am only starting on this journey of being a soccer dad but when I first started, I was the biggest yeller and animated person on the sidelines. It took some time and conversations with my son to realize my toxic behavior and to shut the heck up. I feel like people want to normalize their own bad behavior and blame external factors rather just saying, it's my fault and I need to deal with it.

The sole responsibility of such conduct is on the people who engaged in the conduct, any policies instituted to protect the refs are for line drawing and formal punishment/consequences. It is not up to the league to figure out how to placate toxic/angry people who cannot control their emotions.

To maintain your sanity, just ignore sigmabody. He is a fraud and only on here to spread his propaganda and to let himself feel - if even for a moment - that he knows better than everyone else. He loves to complain about how everyone else does everything wrong and casts himself as the savior of youth soccer, but he's stupid with a fragile ego. So far on this board he has advocated for: -no background checks for refs, so that pedophiles can ref your kids' game, -a clusterfuck "referee complaint system" where soccer moms and dads can register their ill-informed complaints by the thousands every weekend (hey, sigmabody, why don't you be the one who reads all the complaints - a better use of your time than posting here) and - just for good measure, because he knows everything, some tips on how you should do your taxes. Ignore!

 

[CaliR1]

Thinking about it, and certainly anecdotally, I don't think I've ever gotten frustrated with an official for making a call (even if/when it was my kid getting called or carded, and I felt the call was incorrect). I have enough experience as a ref that I know it's hard, and there will be bad calls, and I teach my kid as much. The only times I've become frustrated (and they are rare) are when there are non-calls, and it seems like the game is getting dangerous for the kids as a result.

And my kid gets fouled a lot, fwiw; as an example, in a tournament game last year (State Cup, iirc), the ref actually told the other team near half time to stop fouling my kid, specifically, after they had fouled him 5+ times and the ref had carded one of their players for repeated fouls. They seemed to be targeting him specifically, and the ref had made some calls, and missed some others. Overall, though, I thought that ref was great, and I'd have given him a very positive review overall if I could have: he kept the game under control and the players safe-ish, and I had no significant concerns.

Agree that there are parents who are dicks. I've probably been told I suck as a ref more times than I can count over the years; doesn't really bother me much, but agree it can add up. I don't know that just trying to force parents to shut up rather than venting verbally is going to be a net positive, but I could be wrong.

I think that a good way to resolve it is to provide the coaches some sort of chance to rate and comment on referees after the season or tournament. I think rating refs right after a game is probably not productive as the emotions are probably still raw but definitely give coaches a chance to give their opinions after some time has passed.

The one data point that I think would be important is the availability of referees. If you only have a certain pool of referees to pull from, you really have no choice but to use them even if they are bad.

 

[sigmabody]

I think that a good way to resolve it is to provide the coaches some sort of chance to rate and comment on referees after the season or tournament. I think rating refs right after a game is probably not productive as the emotions are probably still raw but definitely give coaches a chance to give their opinions after some time has passed.

The one data point that I think would be important is the availability of referees. If you only have a certain pool of referees to pull from, you really have no choice but to use them even if they are bad.

That's probably a fair compromise. It would at least give a path for feedback, by encouraging the parents to voice their complaints to the coach after the fact, and give a sense that some actions might be taken eventually. It's better that "shut up and accept it", certainly.

As noted before, I don't think that even with a rating system, people would be able to avoid dealing with poor officials, and if the pool is small, you will get what you get. However, at least with some public ratings people could see that (a) you might be getting a lower quality ref just because of availability, and (b) you can see the rating, so you can adjust expectations accordingly. It would also add some transparency for tournaments, for example, where the organizers might claim "high quality officials", but the reality on the field might be far different.

But as you can probably tell, I'm a proponent of more transparency in general, as I think that can solve some of the existing problems, or at least mitigate some of the frustrations.

 

[Lee Robert]

I would like to respond to those that have viewed and commented on this post:

Policy 531-9 Misconduct Toward Game Officials has been amended to make the offenses and sanctions clear for the Administrators. The purpose is to provide a safer environment for all the participants.

Policy 531-10 Misconduct of Game Officials is used to report misconduct by Game Officials. When we receive reports against referees we review, hold hearings and issue sanctions.

There is a reporting structure for Coaches and managers; they have always been able to report a problem with a referee to their club, league, referee assignor and/or administrator.

Every Referee Assignor has a rating for their referees based on game performance, game management, fitness,... We have about 100 Referee Coaches and Mentors that observe referees and provide mentoring. In the past referees were assigned based on their rating or skill level. Today, due to the referee shortage and growth of soccer, the assignors just want their games covered. And due to the shortage, mentors are being asked to referee to cover the games.



New referees have to attend the US Soccer Referee Course, Concussion Awareness, Sudden Cardiac Arrest, and attend a 3-hour Referee Preparation Training.

Recertifying Referees have to pay an annual registration fee, complete the following training annually: SafeSport, attend 5 training sessions and pass a Law Test.

And those that want to advance have to pay for and pass three assessments.

You have a some choices:
Become a Referee, it is far more challenging than I could have imagined
Be respectful and let's set the right example for our children.
Ask yourself, how you would like to be treated if you were the referee.
Be part of the solution and help us certify more referees

Here is the link to attend an upcoming referee preparation training: https://calsouth.com/upcoming-referee-education-courses/

 

[Lee Robert]

I would like to respond to those that have viewed and commented on this post:

Policy 531-9 Misconduct Toward Game Officials has been amended to make the offenses and sanctions clear for the Administrators. The purpose is to provide a safer environment for all the participants.

Policy 531-10 Misconduct of Game Officials is used to report misconduct by Game Officials. When we receive reports against referees we review, hold hearings and issue sanctions.

There is a reporting structure for Coaches and managers; they have always been able to report a problem with a referee to their club, league, referee assignor and/or administrator.

Every Referee Assignor has a rating for their referees based on game performance, game management, fitness,... We have about 100 Referee Coaches and Mentors that observe referees and provide mentoring. In the past referees were assigned based on their rating or skill level. Today, due to the referee shortage and growth of soccer, the assignors just want their games covered. And due to the shortage, mentors are being asked to referee to cover the games.

View attachment 25112

New referees have to attend the US Soccer Referee Course, Concussion Awareness, Sudden Cardiac Arrest, and attend a 3-hour Referee Preparation Training.

Recertifying Referees have to pay an annual registration fee, complete the following training annually: SafeSport, attend 5 training sessions and pass a Law Test.

And those that want to advance have to pay for and pass three assessments.

You have a some choices:
Become a Referee, it is far more challenging than I could have imagined
Be respectful and let's set the right example for our children.
Ask yourself, how you would like to be treated if you were the referee.
Be part of the solution and help us certify more referees

Here is the link to attend an upcoming referee preparation training: https://calsouth.com/upcoming-referee-education-courses/

By the way, this past weekend, I mentored 5 fields. 3 fields had no problems, 2 had problems in just about each of their games, so obviously a referee situation. I sent my report to the tournament Admin, they send it to the assignor. In those two fields, the referees were running, in good position, foul recognition and offside decisions were good. In both they failed to handle the complaints and dissent from the coaches and then the spectators. Had they held a proper pregame, included mutual respect and then handled the coaches with a "please coach," these games would have been more enjoyable. If necessary follow up with a quick chat reminding them that we have different viewpoints in the game, "I respect yours, pls respect mine." I will tell you that the people management skill needed by referees is by far the most challenging to obtain. Probably takes 100 or more games to be effective.