@Rhyser I usually don't get into too many discussions on here, but for whatever reason this one is captivating me. I know you are really lighting a fire under some folks, but I am really trying to take what you have posted in. It seems like you really have a beef with many things SOCAL but the nature of some of your posts seems to be ever changing so in my mind I am trying figure out what the deeper issue is here.
I went back to your original post. To paraphrase it was basically the bracketing/aging of the youngers is too variable and uncontrolled, why do we need refs when they don't do much because these are glorified friendlies (parents do all the work anyways), the league provides no oversight or mechanics for feedback. Got it, and everyone has a right to their own opinion. Then I just looked at some of your replies on the post below and I want to get some clarification, and then add some of my own thoughts.
You have apparently regressed back to name calling but that’s fine. Since you are so good at comprehension please elaborate where it states to remove competition all together? Where does it state member organizations should engage in false marketing practices? Where does it state member organizations should charge for services and have the members do the work after paying? where does it state the league should provide incompetent supervision and lack of oversight? i can go on but lets start with this.
-False marketing--Is that back to the "competition" thing? I though that was quelled with all the information provided by myself and so well by other posters that this comes from US soccer. And just for the sake of argument there are definitions of "competition" that do not involve wining or a victor....It can be as simple as 2 opponents engaging in a contest.
-Members do the work that we play the league for- What exactly are you yourself doing that you feel is reasonable that the league should be doing for the league fee? From your original post-
we pay the league fees, managers/coaches enter the scores, we print the teams sheets for the referee, pay the referee fees for each game, provide corner flags.
-Lack of supervision- I know what you mean here and I will touch on it further down.
If the League chooses to keep allowing referees to come out who are either not capable of keeping up with play thereby willfully endangering the children, or who are repeatedly and willfully allowing coaches/sidelines/parents to promote violence, racism, and/or emotional/mental harm to the children on the field then yes.
You went a long way in your original post of coaches screaming and berating to now the allowance of literal violence, promotion of violence, and now (100+ posts into the thread), eh, racism. It just comes off as things are being exacerbated for affect or to fall in line with the veracity of the narrative . I mean when I read the quote above I took it as you are saying the refs are allowing for blatant child abuse to occur.
Listen I don't know what the truth is and what is isn't..... I am just telling you as a total neutral observer for this point alone it comes off as you are exacerbating these stories. If this was really occurring this would be points 1, 2, and 3 of my original post..... not what are 17's playing in the 16s bracket and why do we need refs ? But maybe that’s just me.
A couple points from me (as someone with 40+ years in the game that held every position possible outside of being on the BoD of a club)
- True league fees for SOCAL are about $500 ($400 last year so i am adding for inflation and for nicer numbers), higher for NPL ( but I think most of those extra $ go up to NPL admin) . So across all age groups lets say avg roster of 15 players, so about $33 per player. You average club player including team fees and all the crap like canopies, unforms, etc is lets say 2.5-3.5K ( My DD is 4K not including travel costs) So your cost to SOCAL is about 1% of what you pay annually. At what we are already paying now, and what you seem to be asking for, do you know what that will do to out of pocket expenses?
I don’t know what all goes into that but obviously website maintenance, admin costs (organization, coach/mgr/admin certification management, compliance with fields, field permits, referee association management, scheduling, and I’m probably missing a ton)
So my question to
@Rhyser is do you expect for that fee that the league in addition to these duties does what you mention in the OP (enter scores, print your match cards, accounting costs to pay the refs directly via the leagues?)
And while we are on the subject of SOCAL in regards to "oversight" you mentioned a few times.... I think SOCAL is close to 1K teams now, lets say on any given day there can be 300-400 games on 150-250 fields? Are you saying you would expect the league to provide a rep at each field weekly? Its crazy to even think what that would cost.
- With respect to referees, you mentioned before having coaches and manager evaluate them and based on those evals they may be eliminated form further refereeing. Thats asinine. First coaches are not objective and therefore cannot evaluate without bias. Many managers have never even played the game. You could maybe have some sort of feedback mechanism when coaches can give their input, but that would get out of control Secondly, even most coaches do not know the laws of the game (IFAB changes them annually)... Many still think any hand on ball contact is handling. Your only option is to have a more extensive network of referee assessors (we already do)-- but again, we are short refs as is, and many that assess and needed to cover games in the first place. And then who foot the bill for the assessments? There is actually within the Cal South referee Core an initiative to make all coaches pass the Grassroots ref course before they are allowed to coach.
With regards to pace of play, That is usually and issue for 11 v11 and much less at 9v9 and especially 7v7. I get it I hate it myself when I see refs hardly leave the vicinity of the center circle. If the egregious incidents that you say are occurring are actually happening, they should still be easily visible regardless of your position on the field ( most 7v7 are 55x35 yards). Im not saying isnt not possible but to me, unlikely. I whole-heartedly agree with
@TopesWin in that in all my years I have had few instances of where what someone’s description of an incident to me was as bad or worse than described (whether I saw it live myself or on video after the fact), but hundreds if not thousands of where the description was exaggerated compared to the actual incident.
y final thing is this....if you want change then post the video if the incidents occurred how you describe. I am no legal expert but I don’t think posting a real factual video would preclude you from pursing something legally. There have been numerous incidents in soccer alone ( mostly player and parent physical attacks on refs) that helped create a storm of community support and change. I think there was even a incident in basketball last year I believe at Laguna Hills high School that only became known thanks to a video being posted.
Lastly, thin about this.... lets say you persue this, and lets say by some way somethings comes of it legally (lets just talk about referees). How many referees do you think will still want to do the jobs knowing what potential repercussions are (lets say there is no video evidence but parent A says the ref allowed for player B to hit my kid and he should be held liable criminally or civilly for allowing it? Or even coaches? What will that do to "competition"?
You guys all take care…..
