How do leagues stack up?

[Carlsbad7]

I used to have a coworker that owned a soccer club outside of Chicago that had 2000-3000 players.

He said running the club was easy, finding players was easy, the hardest part was finding quality coaches.

I don't know if he was paying poorly or if coaches in general are hard to find, probably both.

 

[sockma]

...and Beach, CFA, Future, ...

I was leaving ECNL clubs out of it. But yes to CFA and Future - definitely some great coaches there.

 

[Grace T.]

I used to have a coworker that owned a soccer club outside of Chicago that had 2000-3000 players.

He said running the club was easy, finding players was easy, the hardest part was finding quality coaches.

I don't know if he was paying poorly or if coaches in general are hard to find, probably both.

Depends what the standard is by "quality coaches". What do you care about: winning, developing the players, being a professional person (pick 2 usually) The dream coach:

-Needs to be able to recruit since building a winning squad is mostly about recruiting. The coaches have them for too little time to make much of an impact on a team, let alone making an individual player better
-Needs to know how to build a session that is productive and develops the team
-Needs to be able to inspire the team and players. At higher levels he shouldn't have to condition players since they've done that work outside the limited time of team practice.
-Needs to be familiar and up to date with all the latest tactics and be a tactical wizard. Should be familiar with all aspects of all positions from the goalkeeper to striker needs.
-Needs to be able to manage his own conduct and that of the parents on the sidelines and as part of the team dynamics such as playtime expectations
-Needs to be able to get the best out of his players by being professional and respectful without resorting to abuse
-Needs to be able to balance the need for winning with the need for developing and to get wins without resorting to short cuts like run and boot ball.
-Needs to be able to engage in the highest ethical conduct by not creating things like conflicts of interests or undue relationships with the parents
-Needs to be able to keep everyone happy and retention high

Pretty tall order in today's day and age, particularly if you aren't paying very well.

 

[Code]

I was leaving ECNL clubs out of it. But yes to CFA and Future - definitely some great coaches there.

I'm talking about their NPL teams and coaches

 

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

Same with tournaments why do you think there's so many in six different flights, because parents want to pay for "winning" that $2 medal and $20 trophy.

Haha am I the only one who gets annoyed when I see either clubs, players, or parents say they're "state cup winning team" or "man city/surf cup/whatever tournament" champions... but they played 3rd flight/division?

We don't always play the highest division but we try to. If we won a lower division tourney or entered state cup as flight 2 or 3 and won it... I think I would specify that... instead of saying we won a certain tournament or state cup...

 

[crush]

Depends what the standard is by "quality coaches". What do you care about: winning, developing the players, being a professional person (pick 2 usually) The dream coach:

-Needs to be able to recruit since building a winning squad is mostly about recruiting. The coaches have them for too little time to make much of an impact on a team, let alone making an individual player better
-Needs to know how to build a session that is productive and develops the team
-Needs to be able to inspire the team and players. At higher levels he shouldn't have to condition players since they've done that work outside the limited time of team practice.
-Needs to be familiar and up to date with all the latest tactics and be a tactical wizard. Should be familiar with all aspects of all positions from the goalkeeper to striker needs.
-Needs to be able to manage his own conduct and that of the parents on the sidelines and as part of the team dynamics such as playtime expectations
-Needs to be able to get the best out of his players by being professional and respectful without resorting to abuse
-Needs to be able to balance the need for winning with the need for developing and to get wins without resorting to short cuts like run and boot ball.
-Needs to be able to engage in the highest ethical conduct by not creating things like conflicts of interests or undue relationships with the parents
-Needs to be able to keep everyone happy and retention high

Pretty tall order in today's day and age, particularly if you aren't paying very well.

Need's to also find a TM/GM that can help with recruiting todays human being.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Haha am I the only one who gets annoyed when I see either clubs, players, or parents say they're "state cup winning team" or "man city/surf cup/whatever tournament" champions... but they played 3rd flight/division?

We don't always play the highest division but we try to. If we won a lower division tourney or entered state cup as flight 2 or 3 and won it... I think I would specify that... instead of saying we won a certain tournament or state cup...

You have to keep in mind that sometimes tournaments put top teams in lower brackets so certain "chosen" teams dont have to face them.

I've seen Polo Fields related tournaments do this to hot + up and coming smaller club teams at younger ages.

*cough* Ole *cough*

Because of this I dont always roll my eyes at silver level tournament wins. (Just usually)

 

[futboldad1]

That is one thing that I have noticed across the leagues. At least in AZ. The ECNL and GA teams have quality throughout. Some drop when subs come in but still good players. You get to ECRL and DPL and the quality drops. The starting 11 could be really good but after that it gets sketchy. Another thing about ECNL/ECRL especially in the SW. The top ECRL teams (Beach, Legends, Slammers etc) are ranked higher than most of the mid Tier ECNL teams. It makes sense but kinda blew me away. Most parents are so in awe of ECNL but when you really look at it, its like any other league. There are good and bad teams in it and the mid bottom teams are really no better and sometimes worse than the league below.

Remember that rankings are flawed as they can only show results based on who you play....so teams playing weak opponents often get a false ranking especially if they can run up scores......

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Remember that rankings are flawed as they can only show results based on who you play....so teams playing weak opponents often get a false ranking especially if they can run up scores......

This is categorically and entirely false. It is mathematically wrong. It is a provably incorrect statement.

But that never stopped anyone from believing anything else, I can't imagine why this would be any different.

 

[Carlsbad7]

This is categorically and entirely false. It is mathematically wrong. It is a provably incorrect statement.

But that never stopped anyone from believing anything else, I can't imagine why this would be any different.

I have to agree with RandomSoccerFan.

Running up the score on poor teams wont increase a teams ranking.

It will get bigger clubs interested in a smaller clubs team because they likely have a strong forward to recruit.

 

[SurfSupDude]

Posted on FB today. Only looking at 09s. Based on average of top ten teams per league.

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

Posted on FB today. Only looking at 09s. Based on average of top ten teams per league.View attachment 19211

That doesn't look right, something is off.

 

[Carlsbad7]

That doesn't look right, something is off.

It's probably right. "Average of top 10 teams per league" + no kind of power rating per league. If it was average of top 100 teams per league you'd probably get a different result.

What it's showing is that the top 10 09 teams from the leagues listed win a lot. Ths could mean that the top 10 teams are really good ,or the teams they play against are really bad, or both

 

[dad4]

It's probably right. "Average of top 10 teams per league" + no kind of power rating per league. If it was average of top 100 teams per league you'd probably get a different result.

What it's showing is that the top 10 09 teams from the leagues listed win a lot. Ths could mean that the top 10 teams are really good ,or the teams they play against are really bad, or both

Top 100 ? I don't think many of those leagues even have 100 CA teams.

You could expand it to "all CA teams". You'd get something similar to SR's strength of schedule numbers, which are about the same.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

It's the top 10 teams of each league. Previous lists have used the average of the entire league. In some cases, the results are the same, and in others - they are significantly different. Leagues that have a huge variation from the top teams to the bottom teams are helped more in this view, than leagues that have a much smaller variation from top teams to bottom teams. What it shows is that the top teams, in the top leagues, are pretty close to eachother - moreso than the average of each league. So if the top team in one league were to compete against a top team in another - it would be a good game.

What it does do, is illuminate which leagues consider themselves top leagues, but their best teams aren't great.

For all lists like this, it would be even better if you could drill down to see the 10 teams chosen, and confirm that they are in the same league that you believe them to be in. There is certainly some weirdness, as applied to NorCal.

 

[TeamDadJokes]

Pretty bad look for Elite 64 to be the bottom of the barrel. The only question is what is the cross over to NL PRO as a I know most those leagues have teams in both.

 

[SurfSupDude]

What it shows is that the top teams, in the top leagues, are pretty close to eachother - moreso than the average of each league. So if the top team in one league were to compete against a top team in another - it would be a good game.

Exactly. Although — and I’m focusing on the girls side, that’s not really the case with ECNL, as a full 2 goal differential is quite a lot.

But top teams across the next five leagues are about the same (within 1 goal).

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Maybe, but keep in mind that even in this age group, in California, the ECNL 2009G teams near the bottom are more than 5 goals off the top teams. While some may believe that the ECNL name alone means good quality teams, there are plenty of teams that would be beaten handily by those in other leagues. What this data is telling us is that the best ECNL teams are favored competitively against the best teams of other top leagues, and there is a measurable gap.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Maybe, but keep in mind that even in this age group, in California, the ECNL 2009G teams near the bottom are more than 5 goals off the top teams. While some may believe that the ECNL name alone means good quality teams, there are plenty of teams that would be beaten handily by those in other leagues. What this data is telling us is that the best ECNL teams are favored competitively against the best teams of other top leagues, and there is a measurable gap.

I believe there's also a bit a "banding" of ranking based on leagues going on. To address teams from different leagues need to play each other more often.

Here's an example. If league A club members hold 1-10 rankings and league B club members hold 11-20 rankings + the leagues never play each other or other clubs from league C,D, or E. Teams from league A will tend to stay highly ranked even if they lose a lot and teams from league B will tend to not be highly ranked because they don't play teams from league A. Even worse for league B is they have more to lose if the lose.

The only way I can think of to address this type of situation without teams from different leagues playing each other is to add some kind of multiplier after X number of wins that affects ranking.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

I think that thought may have some intended logic to it, but I also think that logic is faulty. The teams aren't banded, and the leagues aren't banded. The results are what they are. There is enough interplay, even if through intermediaries, that the predictions speak for themselves. If the end result of gameplay is that a significant number of teams in one league show better results than a significant number of teams in another league, however the leagues are compared - one is going to show better results both individually and via aggregate. Adding a win multiplier is certainly an option - but remember these kind of tweaks are tested over thousands and thousands of games, and the resulting predictivity can be shown immediately. It's these type of tweaks that have been done for years to optimize predictivity, and making those suggestions because of a team or a league without having the huge amount of actual game data to test them - is just that - it's a hunch that was likely already thought of, tested, and implemented or not.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I think that thought may have some intended logic to it, but I also think that logic is faulty. The teams aren't banded, and the leagues aren't banded. The results are what they are. There is enough interplay, even if through intermediaries, that the predictions speak for themselves. If the end result of gameplay is that a significant number of teams in one league show better results than a significant number of teams in another league, however the leagues are compared - one is going to show better results both individually and via aggregate. Adding a win multiplier is certainly an option - but remember these kind of tweaks are tested over thousands and thousands of games, and the resulting predictivity can be shown immediately. It's these type of tweaks that have been done for years to optimize predictivity, and making those suggestions because of a team or a league without having the huge amount of actual game data to test them - is just that - it's a hunch that was likely already thought of, tested, and implemented or not.

I think we're saying the same thing.

With interplay between leagues everything works with the current model.

Without interplay between leagues some leagues won't be able to rank as highly as others.

Another way to look at it is a team not in the highest league could win for 4-5 years straight + not rank very highly. Espicially if they never play outside of their league.

Personally I believe leagues will allow interplay less and less over time either directly or indirectly + clubs will be ok with it. It's just easier to state that you're the best vs proving it all the time in games.