How do leagues stack up?

[algomez619]

E64 on the 09 girls side has several top teams (top 3) that can beat most ECRL and some ECNL teams. The rest are at ECRL and below. Elite 64 will continue to get stronger because there’s so many players that cannot make the drive to join the top 2 leagues. The problem with e64 is the cost is almost the same and that’s an issue for an unproven league. Top talent but will they get the visibility from college scouts as the other top 2 leagues.

Agree. Daughter moved from being in ECRL/ECNL (in San Diego) for over two years to E64. Top scorer and everything and I was honestly surprised when we played the top teams in E64 and how well they would match up with the middle to top teams in ECNL. ECNL parents would always say the speed of the game is faster in ECNL but it's not true. I would say overall ECNL has a better concentration of solid teams because they have been around longer but E64 is a good solid option. Find what works best for your kid and their development. For my kid this move was a breath of fresh air and she loves it.

 

[Carlsbad7]

You can only rank individual players if you are tracking in-depth stats (like Opta) on a consistent basis across all players. That ain't happening for youth soccer .

Many players/parents are already doing GPS tracking on their own.

Tracking individual players is coming to GA...

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Getting the data is the first step. Applying analytics like Opta can occur whenever.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Agree. Daughter moved from being in ECRL/ECNL (in San Diego) for over two years to E64. Top scorer and everything and I was honestly surprised when we played the top teams in E64 and how well they would match up with the middle to top teams in ECNL. ECNL parents would always say the speed of the game is faster in ECNL but it's not true. I would say overall ECNL has a better concentration of solid teams because they have been around longer but E64 is a good solid option. Find what works best for your kid and their development. For my kid this move was a breath of fresh air and she loves it.

My kid has played for both ECNL and GA clubs + feel exactly the same.

In Socal the edge girls ECNL has is that there's 3-4 very high level clubs in the local leagues. This raises the caliber of the teams they play against but overall the mid to lover level teams are pretty equivalent to other leagues.

What I think is annoying about the whole thing is that most of the high level ECNL teams are recruitment machines. They dont develop players from a young age until the top team. They're primarally superteams that are constantly looking for the biggest fastest quickest players for wins.

This is why many people with kids that are older suggest staying local + dont chase wins. Driving an hour each way just to play for a superteam ends up being a huge time suck for most people. Also that's 2 hours a day your kid could be playing soccer if you stayed local.

 

[Grace T.]

Agree. Daughter moved from being in ECRL/ECNL (in San Diego) for over two years to E64. Top scorer and everything and I was honestly surprised when we played the top teams in E64 and how well they would match up with the middle to top teams in ECNL. ECNL parents would always say the speed of the game is faster in ECNL but it's not true. I would say overall ECNL has a better concentration of solid teams because they have been around longer but E64 is a good solid option. Find what works best for your kid and their development. For my kid this move was a breath of fresh air and she loves it.

The issue I've heard with E64 is that different clubs are handling it differently. For some it's been used as an exclusive level for a team, but the complaints there are that there haven't been enough games for the team. For others, it's a way to mix and match (since card registration is flexible) players from various teams but they have other responsibilities (and more games) with their NPL teams etc. Does that match your experience, or do you have a different take?

I also think even in the girls side (which the complaints are always raised here that it is diluted) that ECNL is a very different creature from ECRL.

Many players/parents are already doing GPS tracking on their own.

Tracking individual players is coming to GA...

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Getting the data is the first step. Applying analytics like Opta can occur whenever.

Not all positions are equivalent in producing an excellent team. For example, you need a competent goalkeeper that is not going to let in expected goals but at U14, even on the boys side, 90% of the keepers even at the highest levels are going to let in that shot that's banged in over their heads between themselves and the cross bar. A kid on the lower end of the league chart may have a worse save record due to the amount and types of shots the kid is facing even though objectively as a shot stopper he is better than the goalkeeper on the first team on the chart. The goalkeeper can't win games for you....he can only lose them for you....as my son's middle school rapidly discovered despite 3/6 clean sheets and multiple multiple shots on target....if the strikers don't score the best you get is a 0-0 game assuming not own goal mistakes from anyone or shots outside the expected bubble (such as penalties, 1v1s in the 6, high corners or cutbacks). So from a shot stopping statistic, it's only valuable if you know the expected goals the keeper would let in for that age and for that level.

And that's before you get to the point that the goalkeepers (100% on the boys side because of the American/MLS possession style of play MLS Next implemented) at the higher & older levels have to have good feet AND are also responsible for backline tactics. The strikers are an easier statistic...goals scored, but that also has to be weighted against expected opportunities (if the striker doesn't get the ball, the striker can't score). It's the Ted Lasso "get it to Zava" problem. The striker position also has to be weighted much heavier as whether the teams wins or loses turns disproportionately on the skill of the striker, which explains the high salaries for the position as outlined in Soccernomics. A center back is another one of the key positions that needs to be weighted and which economically as a result comes with a salary boast, but there scoring statistics would be of little use and a more reliable indicator would actually be height and backtrack running speed. The value of the RB/LB in part depends on the method of attack being used by the team....are they being used high to attack (in which case scoring might be part of the moneyball indicator) or are they being used in a more traditional line defensive mode.

Basketball used to do this and assign a number to players, at least when I was growing up. The positions are less specialized since all the players are expected to take a defensive v offensive roll. But even then it was never very useful. They used to try to balance the teams with those numbers but found that it didn't also work. AYSO does the same and has the same issue, but less so since they are primarily focused on the little ones right now and the statistics are more meaningful when soccer is about running and shooting than positions and tactical play.

 

[JeterwastheBEST]

The issue I've heard with E64 is that different clubs are handling it differently. For some it's been used as an exclusive level for a team, but the complaints there are that there haven't been enough games for the team. For others, it's a way to mix and match (since card registration is flexible) players from various teams but they have other responsibilities (and more games) with their NPL teams etc. Does that match your experience, or do you have a different take?

I also think even in the girls side (which the complaints are always raised here that it is diluted) that ECNL is a very different creature from ECRL.



Not all positions are equivalent in producing an excellent team. For example, you need a competent goalkeeper that is not going to let in expected goals but at U14, even on the boys side, 90% of the keepers even at the highest levels are going to let in that shot that's banged in over their heads between themselves and the cross bar. A kid on the lower end of the league chart may have a worse save record due to the amount and types of shots the kid is facing even though objectively as a shot stopper he is better than the goalkeeper on the first team on the chart. The goalkeeper can't win games for you....he can only lose them for you....as my son's middle school rapidly discovered despite 3/6 clean sheets and multiple multiple shots on target....if the strikers don't score the best you get is a 0-0 game assuming not own goal mistakes from anyone or shots outside the expected bubble (such as penalties, 1v1s in the 6, high corners or cutbacks). So from a shot stopping statistic, it's only valuable if you know the expected goals the keeper would let in for that age and for that level.

And that's before you get to the point that the goalkeepers (100% on the boys side because of the American/MLS possession style of play MLS Next implemented) at the higher & older levels have to have good feet AND are also responsible for backline tactics. The strikers are an easier statistic...goals scored, but that also has to be weighted against expected opportunities (if the striker doesn't get the ball, the striker can't score). It's the Ted Lasso "get it to Zava" problem. The striker position also has to be weighted much heavier as whether the teams wins or loses turns disproportionately on the skill of the striker, which explains the high salaries for the position as outlined in Soccernomics. A center back is another one of the key positions that needs to be weighted and which economically as a result comes with a salary boast, but there scoring statistics would be of little use and a more reliable indicator would actually be height and backtrack running speed. The value of the RB/LB in part depends on the method of attack being used by the team....are they being used high to attack (in which case scoring might be part of the moneyball indicator) or are they being used in a more traditional line defensive mode.

Basketball used to do this and assign a number to players, at least when I was growing up. The positions are less specialized since all the players are expected to take a defensive v offensive roll. But even then it was never very useful. They used to try to balance the teams with those numbers but found that it didn't also work. AYSO does the same and has the same issue, but less so since they are primarily focused on the little ones right now and the statistics are more meaningful when soccer is about running and shooting than positions and tactical play.

Each age level for girls is different depending on a point in time and space; but generally speaking, there are very few really good ECRL teams (e.g. 1/5 - 1/7 of them) from one end of California to the other. ECNL perhaps marginally better percentage of really good teams. Most, if not all, of these ECRL and ECNL teams are carrying 20 girls, sometimes more. This begs the question- why would any rational individual make such a choice on behalf of their daughter? Especially in light of the cost and time involved. The answer is individuals become irrational when it comes to their child. Put your child on a good team, train them up and make sure they get really good grades. Women's soccer is not SEC Football where any level of education is accepted. You may very likely get into Notre Dame because of your stellar grades, as much as any soccer prowess. It may be that for many schools your GPA is 75% of the equation and only 25% soccer prowess and generally speaking, not vice-a -versa.

 

[TopesWin]

It would be nice if there was an app that would rank individual players on technical ability, because the current apps rank Winners and Losers, and lead people into believing that players on Winning teams are technically superior than others. Do parents want their kids to be technically great, or great only in Win-Loss record with regard to teams and tournaments? College scouts want great players, not player who merely have the most plastic medals taped to their bedroom walls.

That would be tough to develop, but while we're at it, I'd love to see an app that tracks the unreasonableness of each parents' expectations on the sidelines.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Or an app that has a drone shoot caramel lollipops at the loudest sideline parents.

 

[Code]

Reality is that top teams have good players in all positions because that's what it takes to win. This is why number of team wins is a good indicator of individual talent.

Nailed it. /\ Also, if there is an individual player who is technically great, on a team that consistently loses, it is likely they are much better than most of the other players on the team. That player will get frustrated and either move to a better team, or quit playing. If all the individual players are technically great, the team will be winning a lot, and be ranked high.

 

[Grace T.]

Nailed it. /\ Also, if there is an individual player who is technically great, on a team that consistently loses, it is likely they are much better than most of the other players on the team. That player will get frustrated and either move to a better team, or quit playing. If all the individual players are technically great, the team will be winning a lot, and be ranked high.

Only really true of the higher, older, winning teams. On the youngers before 11v11 all it really takes to rack up a lot of wins is a fast player up top. The GKs can't really do much, kids can't really effectively cross yet, a lot of it just comes down to how fast they are and their leg strength. On the second level teams and below there's a lot of churn year to year: kids getting better and moving up, kids getting frustrated with limited playtime (particularly when sub and/or dressing limits kick in) and looking elsewhere. For teams at the highest level but on the lower end of the tables, assuming the region has choices, players looking to move up to better performing teams, players getting cut.

 

[Code]

Only really true of the higher, older, winning teams. On the youngers before 11v11 all it really takes to rack up a lot of wins is a fast player up top. The GKs can't really do much, kids can't really effectively cross yet, a lot of it just comes down to how fast they are and their leg strength. On the second level teams and below there's a lot of churn year to year: kids getting better and moving up, kids getting frustrated with limited playtime (particularly when sub and/or dressing limits kick in) and looking elsewhere. For teams at the highest level but on the lower end of the tables, assuming the region has choices, players looking to move up to better performing teams, players getting cut.

Agreed. I honestly don't even pay attention to rankings of teams prior to 11v11. What is the point? They are all still developing, and a lot will change with the players when they make that move from 9v9. I forget some people on here are applying these discussions to their Under 10 teams.

 

[crush]

My kid has played for both ECNL and GA clubs + feel exactly the same.

In Socal the edge girls ECNL has is that there's 3-4 very high level clubs in the local leagues. This raises the caliber of the teams they play against but overall the mid to lover level teams are pretty equivalent to other leagues.

What I think is annoying about the whole thing is that most of the high level ECNL teams are recruitment machines. They dont develop players from a young age until the top team. They're primarally superteams that are constantly looking for the biggest fastest quickest players for wins.

This is why many people with kids that are older suggest staying local + dont chase wins. Driving an hour each way just to play for a superteam ends up being a huge time suck for most people. Also that's 2 hours a day your kid could be playing soccer if you stayed local.

Can't argue that

 

[tjinaz]

Nailed it. /\ Also, if there is an individual player who is technically great, on a team that consistently loses, it is likely they are much better than most of the other players on the team. That player will get frustrated and either move to a better team, or quit playing. If all the individual players are technically great, the team will be winning a lot, and be ranked high.

That is one thing that I have noticed across the leagues. At least in AZ. The ECNL and GA teams have quality throughout. Some drop when subs come in but still good players. You get to ECRL and DPL and the quality drops. The starting 11 could be really good but after that it gets sketchy. Another thing about ECNL/ECRL especially in the SW. The top ECRL teams (Beach, Legends, Slammers etc) are ranked higher than most of the mid Tier ECNL teams. It makes sense but kinda blew me away. Most parents are so in awe of ECNL but when you really look at it, its like any other league. There are good and bad teams in it and the mid bottom teams are really no better and sometimes worse than the league below.

 

[Carlsbad7]

That is one thing that I have noticed across the leagues. At least in AZ. The ECNL and GA teams have quality throughout. Some drop when subs come in but still good players. You get to ECRL and DPL and the quality drops. The starting 11 could be really good but after that it gets sketchy. Another thing about ECNL/ECRL especially in the SW. The top ECRL teams (Beach, Legends, Slammers etc) are ranked higher than most of the mid Tier ECNL teams. It makes sense but kinda blew me away. Most parents are so in awe of ECNL but when you really look at it, its like any other league. There are good and bad teams in it and the mid bottom teams are really no better and sometimes worse than the league below.

By design, the superteams need cannon fodder to pad their records.

As an example Slammers ECRL would probabaly beat Rebels ECNL 9x out of 10.

This is why top clubs should be able to field 2x ECNL teams if they can competitively support it. It's silly that just because a certain area has a large number of higher level talent that some either have to commute for a better team or play on the local clubs ECRL team.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

I believe you've stated the same point repeatedly (top teams in ECNL are good, bottom are particularly weak), but even if objectively true - the data just doesn't show anything different going on in ECNL, ECRL, GA, or even NPL. I looked at the 2010G and 2009G teams for ECNL SW, ECNL-R SW, GA SW, and NPL Norcal for fun. Here's what the gap in goal ratings are from the #1 team to the bottom team in each bracket:

ECNL 2010: 4 goals, 6 goals,
ECNL 2009: 5 goals, 4 goals
ECNL R 2010: 5 goals, 5 goals
ECNL R 2009: 5 goals, 7 goals
GA 2010: 5 goals
GA 2009: 3 goals
NPL 2010: 6 goals
NPL 2009: 2 goals

The closest from top to bottom was the 2009 NPL bracket, but in pretty much every other bracket - you can see the results above. The top team will beat the bottom team by 5 goals, give or take a goal - whether NL, RL, GA, or NPL. The belief that ECNL is doing something either different or nefarious to keep the top teams matched up against cannon fodder is either ubiquitous in every league, or it's as nonexistent there as anywhere else. It's certainly clear that the top teams (in NL, but also in RL, GA, and elsewhere) do attract a larger amount of the talent pool, allowing them to maintain and even strengthen their position over time. But there doesn't need to be a stated goal or specific actions to make it happen - it's what happens naturally, as kids and parents gravitate to the winning teams while the weaker teams have a harder time of retention and recruitment. Having a club with so many players that could make up a second NL team can be a problem for that club and those players, as they then have a choice to either go to RL or to sit on the bench for a huge roster. But immediately allowing 2 teams doesn't necessarily fix the problem as described either. It means there is another choice of team in the top league, keeping someone playing NL instead of bumping some down to RL - but in doing so bumping other NL players down to RL if the brackets stay similar sizes and the bottom team or teams do need to make the switch.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I believe you've stated the same point repeatedly (top teams in ECNL are good, bottom are particularly weak), but even if objectively true - the data just doesn't show anything different going on in ECNL, ECRL, GA, or even NPL. I looked at the 2010G and 2009G teams for ECNL SW, ECNL-R SW, GA SW, and NPL Norcal for fun. Here's what the gap in goal ratings are from the #1 team to the bottom team in each bracket:

ECNL 2010: 4 goals, 6 goals,
ECNL 2009: 5 goals, 4 goals
ECNL R 2010: 5 goals, 5 goals
ECNL R 2009: 5 goals, 7 goals
GA 2010: 5 goals
GA 2009: 3 goals
NPL 2010: 6 goals
NPL 2009: 2 goals

The closest from top to bottom was the 2009 NPL bracket, but in pretty much every other bracket - you can see the results above. The top team will beat the bottom team by 5 goals, give or take a goal - whether NL, RL, GA, or NPL. The belief that ECNL is doing something either different or nefarious to keep the top teams matched up against cannon fodder is either ubiquitous in every league, or it's as nonexistent there as anywhere else. It's certainly clear that the top teams (in NL, but also in RL, GA, and elsewhere) do attract a larger amount of the talent pool, allowing them to maintain and even strengthen their position over time. But there doesn't need to be a stated goal or specific actions to make it happen - it's what happens naturally, as kids and parents gravitate to the winning teams while the weaker teams have a harder time of retention and recruitment. Having a club with so many players that could make up a second NL team can be a problem for that club and those players, as they then have a choice to either go to RL or to sit on the bench for a huge roster. But immediately allowing 2 teams doesn't necessarily fix the problem as described either. It means there is another choice of team in the top league, keeping someone playing NL instead of bumping some down to RL - but in doing so bumping other NL players down to RL if the brackets stay similar sizes and the bottom team or teams do need to make the switch.

I believe that I've consistantly said that ECNL Socal has 3-4 top clubs + eveyone else.

I've also said that no matter what league you're playing in you want to be playing on one of the top teams.

You seem to be inferring that I'm saying that whats happening in ECNL Socal isnt happening in other leagues. This is not the case hence why I've stated that you want to be on a top team no matter the league.

What bothers me is when people say that if you're not playing in a certain league the sky is falling. It's not true. Theres good players + good teams in all the different leagues. Unfortunately some never get the chance to prove it before talent is recruited away.

 

[sockma]

I believe that I've consistantly said that ECNL Socal has 3-4 top clubs + eveyone else.

I've also said that no matter what league you're playing in you want to be playing on one of the top teams.

You seem to be inferring that I'm saying that whats happening in ECNL Socal isnt happening in other leagues. This is not the case hence why I've stated that you want to be on a top team no matter the league.

What bothers me is when people say that if you're not playing in a certain league the sky is falling. It's not true. Theres good players + good teams in all the different leagues. Unfortunately some never get the chance to prove it before talent is recruited away.

Very True, there are as many great players in NPL southwest as there are in GA southwest. Does not matter which league.

 

[tjinaz]

Very True, there are as many great players in NPL southwest as there are in GA southwest. Does not matter which league.

I don't think that is true. The letter leagues and particularly the super teams gather the best talent. If your kid is good they will likely be recruited by a elite team. Now some parents say no and those kids remain but... the ones that go get better faster playing and practicing with higher quality players. Players don't develop in a bubble they need coaching and teammates to help. Your kid could have a super high soccer IQ but if their teammates can't follow along what do they learn, how do they get better. I think there is a minimum level of play to develop players and that must be met to improve. My best advice is play on the team where you are a starter. Game time and coaching will make them better. If and when you outgrow that team move up to a better league or team. NPL may have some teams that are there but i am sure GA SW has many many more.

 

[sockma]

I don't think that is true. The letter leagues and particularly the super teams gather the best talent. If your kid is good they will likely be recruited by a elite team. Now some parents say no and those kids remain but... the ones that go get better faster playing and practicing with higher quality players. Players don't develop in a bubble they need coaching and teammates to help. Your kid could have a super high soccer IQ but if their teammates can't follow along what do they learn, how do they get better. I think there is a minimum level of play to develop players and that must be met to improve. My best advice is play on the team where you are a starter. Game time and coaching will make them better. If and when you outgrow that team move up to a better league or team. NPL may have some teams that are there but i am sure GA SW has many many more.

Many many more? Can you show me the comparison of the many mores?

 

[tjinaz]

Many many more? Can you show me the comparison of the many mores?

The many mores would be the environments with quality coaches and players. If you would like to look at the soccer rankings app and see where the GA teams are vs NPL i think that would do it. There may be NPL teams that have high quality coaches and players but there are also plenty of crap teams as well. I can guarantee the GA teams have quality coaches and players and while there may be some in NPL they aren't nearly as common.

 

[sockma]

The many mores would be the environments with quality coaches and players. If you would like to look at the soccer rankings app and see where the GA teams are vs NPL i think that would do it. There may be NPL teams that have high quality coaches and players but there are also plenty of crap teams as well. I can guarantee the GA teams have quality coaches and players and while there may be some in NPL they aren't nearly as common.

Guarantee? I've seen plenty of non GA coaches in southern California that are of greater quality. Tudela, SoCal Elite, and Force are just a few that have better coaches and than most socal GA club coaches for girls.

 

[Code]

Guarantee? I've seen plenty of non GA coaches in southern California that are of greater quality. Tudela, SoCal Elite, and Force are just a few that have better coaches and than most socal GA club coaches for girls.

...and Beach, CFA, Future, ...