Vaccine

Desert Hound said:
It is simply idiotic to drive around wearing a mask.

But that brings up a question since you defend the practice. Should we assume you wear a mask in your car?
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I do not wear a mask in the car when by myself.

However, I see no reason to insult someone else for doing so. As before, they are not causing any harm to other people.

Those who chose to skip masks during fall 2020? They did cause harm to other people.

See the difference?
 
dad4 said:
Harm to other people is the core disagreement here.

I believe that the anti-mask, anti-vax actions actually do cause harm to other people. That's why I support mask and vax requirements in public places.

You, I would guess, believe that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people, and that therefore mandates are unreasonable.
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you are not phrasing the argument properly. It's not that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people. It's that wearing a mask or being vaccinated does little to protect others and therefore should not be coerced, particularly in circumstances where the harm outweighs the benefit.

And as usual your formulation of your side of the issue (again) completely fails to account for costs. There is also a distinction between SHOULD get vaccinated (particularly if you are at risk and haven't had it) and COERCE to get vaccinated

p.s. I thought you had said you weren't in favor of mandates? Reversed yourself?
 
dad4 said:
Harm to other people is the core disagreement here.

I believe that the anti-mask, anti-vax actions actually do cause harm to other people. That's why I support mask and vax requirements in public places.

You, I would guess, believe that declining to wear a mask or be vaccinated does not harm other people, and that therefore mandates are unreasonable.
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No, my point is that people who are irrational about an issue do not make good policies around that issue. It's really not hard to understand if you WANT to understand it. So, I guess your fear is driving your inability to understand that.
 
dad4 said:
Those who chose to skip masks during fall 2020? They did cause harm to other people.
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Who skipped? Masks were pretty much mandated everywhere. Compliance was very high.

Unfortunately masks outside of signaling do not do much to stop the spread of the virus. They have marginal effectiveness...ie in the range of 10% reduction. In other words not enough to stop the spread in any meaningful way.

N95s? Totally different story.
 
Desert Hound said:
Who skipped? Masks were pretty much mandated everywhere. Compliance was very high.

Unfortunately masks outside of signaling do not do much to stop the spread of the virus. They have marginal effectiveness...ie in the range of 10% reduction. In other words not enough to stop the spread in any meaningful way.

N95s? Totally different story.
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Not sure I agree with you on 10%. More importantly, you and I differ about the value of a 10% change to transmissibility.

To me, 10% is a sizable fraction of a solution. Roughly 1/11 of what we needed to do back then.

If you believe the 40% estimates, then it was almost half of what we needed to do.

Either way, it wasn‘t going to stop covid on its own, but it was certainly a step worth taking.

Unlike, say, taking down all the basketball hoops. That was a step which caused harm.
 
dad4 said:
Those who chose to skip masks during fall 2020? They did cause harm to other people.
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Harm? Viral updates are getting us to a world population of 8 billion. The old and or immune compromised die off whether there is a pandemic or not. We don't need ignorant and arrogant experts telling us otherwise. There is too much evidence out there to refute the flat earth beliefs that you people hold.
 
espola said:
Good point. I confused two posters, for which I apologize.
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I expected some follow-on to this. Let's see -- Grace stated that some research topics are taboo, I asked for examples, the example provided by watfly was breakthrough infections, which I pointed out is not true. Shall we continue from there?

Grace -- which topics are taboo?
 
Grace T. said:
Credit to Newsom where credit is due. But you then also have to give credit to DeSantis for taking early steps to fortify Florida's nursing homes and the retirement communities there.
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Newsome doesn't deserve any credit for decisions he made with no skin in the game. Why was he or any other unelected official even involved in the decision to mortally jeopardize peoples lives? People with skin in the game should have been able to make their own individual decisions. I'm not cutting socialist any slack. Especially for Mr. "Seasonality" when it suits him.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
No, my point is that people who are irrational about an issue do not make good policies around that issue. It's really not hard to understand if you WANT to understand it. So, I guess your fear is driving your inability to understand that.
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This is what bugs me most about modern politics. You assume that, because I disagree with you, I must be fearful and irrational. In the statement above, you reject the possibility that a sane, rational adult might believe you are wrong.

It reminds me of the liberals who insist that, because I disagree with them, I must be “misinformed“. No possibility that I just look at the same facts and have a different opinion than they do.
 
For shits and giggles I compared San Diego County vs Santa Clara County in re: to Covid death rates. Interesting SD is slightly better for those younger than 40; however, for 40+ SC has done substantially better. If you look at demographics Asians have typically done better with Covid and Hispanics/Latinos worse. SC has nearly the 3 times the percentage of population of Asians and a smaller relative Hispanic population as compared to SD. Draw your own conclusions. Didn't have the energy to do LA County as they make it difficult to extract their data in a meaningful fashion.

Deaths Per 100,000
San DiegoSanta ClaraDiff
19 or Under 0.2 0.8 (0.6)
20-29 4.0 3.6 0.4
30-39 9.6 11.4 (1.8)
40-49 38.8 24.2 14.6
50-59 101.9 64.2 37.7
60-69 259.2 133.0 126.2
70-79 497.8 311.4 186.4
80+ 1,467.1 1,119.5 347.6
Total 127.7 94.0 33.7
San DiegoSanta Clara
% of Pop# of Deaths% of Pop# of Deaths
Hispanic
33%​
45%​
26%​
32%​
White
45%​
36%​
32%​
28%​
Black
5%​
4%​
2%​
3%​
Asian
13%​
10%​
36%​
22%​
Other/Unknown
4%​
4%​
4%​
15%​
 
dad4 said:
This is what bugs me most about modern politics. You assume that, because I disagree with you, I must be fearful and irrational. In the statement above, you reject the possibility that a sane, rational adult might believe you are wrong.

It reminds me of the liberals who insist that, because I disagree with them, I must be “misinformed“. No possibility that I just look at the same facts and have a different opinion than they do.
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a. You are fearful. That's pretty much been established by you conduct (the N95 masks in the supermarket)and you yourself have admitted it from time to time that you have an issue.
b. You certainly aren't alone, as has been pointed out to you by the people driving in masks or walking outside with masks
c. a lot of the policy on team panic is being driven by fear and an inability to properly calculate risk. There was, as you'll recall, the poll which showed an inordinate amount of Ds who felt getting COVID meant necessarily a trip to the hospital.
c. It is absolutely true you can have the positions from team panic and come up with the position rationally. That would require actually doing a cost benefit analysis and defending it, but instead what we've gotten is "you are killing grandma" or "if it even saves one life isn't it worth it" and stuff which just isn't supported by the data such as when schools were shut down on the justification of saving kids lives/saving kids from long COVID/saving kids from hospitalization or religion in the absence of data such as masks.

All true.

The libs who say misinformed sometimes have a point. It depends on the information and whether it's true or not.
 
dad4 said:
Then look up the annual number of tourists to Gibraltar.
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Being in the travel biz, I can tell you that the peak season into Gibraltar is over the summer months. Aug being the big month. Note that during Aug cases were declining. Right now it is low season for tourism and yet cases are skyrocketing.
 
Desert Hound said:
It also shows the uselessness of vaxx mandates/passports.

By that I mean here you have an area with about 100% vaxxed and yet they are spreading it amongst themselves.
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We've managed to create the best ever self licking ice cream cone. Big government and big pharma love it. One loves the control, the other loves the profit.

Until a vaccine is developed that provides robust real immunity, this is what we have to look forward to. The vaccine wanes, the booster wanes, the virus mutates. I guess what is lost on people is that the silver lining in this thing is that hospitalization and deaths are significantly reduced. Instead of championing that idea and developing treament strategy, fear porn will continue to be peddled and the silly idea of eradication continues to live.
 
Desert Hound said:
Being in the travel biz, I can tell you that the peak season into Gibraltar is over the summer months. Aug being the big month. Note that during Aug cases were declining. Right now it is low season for tourism and yet cases are skyrocketing.
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Gibraltar traditionally has 10 million tourists per year, and a population of 33,000 people. Even during low season, tourists vastly outnumber locals.

”cases per capita” means you take the number of tourist covid cases and divide it by the number of residents. Not really a meaningful metric.
 
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