President Joe Biden

Some prominent D voices are calling for Trump's removal or an article 25 removal. His most recent tweet inflaming things is encouraging them.

Facebook is taking down the earlier Trump statement.

Hawley-Cruz in an impossible position...if they continue their protest they'll be condemned for giving this outrageous act validation. If they drop it, they will be signing the death warrant of the Republican Party. Even former President Bush weighed in.

Lot's of lines being crossed. I said weeks ago the republic is not in a good place and said stuff like this might happen, and we aren't even to the inauguration yet. The Republic is not in a good place.
 
Grace T. said:
Some prominent D voices are calling for Trump's removal or an article 25 removal. His most recent tweet inflaming things is encouraging them.

Facebook is taking down the earlier Trump statement.

Hawley-Cruz in an impossible position...if they continue their protest they'll be condemned for giving this outrageous act validation. If they drop it, they will be signing the death warrant of the Republican Party. Even former President Bush weighed in.

Lot's of lines being crossed. I said weeks ago the republic is not in a good place and said stuff like this might happen, and we aren't even to the inauguration yet. The Republic is not in a good place.
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It is time for a Republican movement to remove him.

I don't think there are enough willing to do it. You'd need something like 20 Senators and support from leadership. At the moment, you can count 2. (Sasse and Romney)

A shame. The GOP needs to out from under Trump's thumb, and a rushed January impeachment would do it.
 
dad4 said:
It is time for a Republican movement to remove him.

I don't think there are enough willing to do it. You'd need something like 20 Senators and support from leadership. At the moment, you can count 2. (Sasse and Romney)

A shame. The GOP needs to out from under Trump's thumb, and a rushed January impeachment would do it.
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It would be another escalation and they'd be signing their own party's death certificate. As Georgia showed, you can't win without both sides of the R Party (at least as long as the Ds remain unified, which they will so long as Joe Biden holds the presidency....afterwards all bets are off). There was a 5% drop in MAGA turnaround...between that and the loss of R votes in the suburbs, it's enough to turn Georgia blue.

I also point out this wouldn't have happened (wouldn't have been possible) but for the lack of condemnation of the riots in the spring/summer....remember Chris Cuomo: "since when are protests supposed to be polite and peaceful?"

Twitter now deleting Trump. Another escalation. The left wing of the Ds are calling for (and passing around a resolution) for the expulsion from Congress of any member that continues to object to the election results. Won't happen but it's another escalation.
 
Grace T. said:
Some prominent D voices are calling for Trump's removal or an article 25 removal. His most recent tweet inflaming things is encouraging them.

Facebook is taking down the earlier Trump statement.

Hawley-Cruz in an impossible position...if they continue their protest they'll be condemned for giving this outrageous act validation. If they drop it, they will be signing the death warrant of the Republican Party. Even former President Bush weighed in.

Lot's of lines being crossed. I said weeks ago the republic is not in a good place and said stuff like this might happen, and we aren't even to the inauguration yet. The Republic is not in a good place.
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Hawley-Cruz have put themselves in that "impossible" position by trying to make some political hay out of this with an eye to 2024. They deserve whatever they get out of it, which is hopefully the end of any presidential aspirations and removal whenever they are up again.

How did the R's ever think it would end well with T? They could have curtailed him from the beginning, but thought they could use him. This was all pretty predictable and certainly more and more so up to the election, when T continually asserted that he could only lose if the Ds cheated and then obv. the toddler tantrums since that the Rs should have shut down at a national level and not thrown their own people in places like Georgia under the bus. Their own behavior just cost them Georgia and the Senate.
 
Grace T. said:
It would be another escalation and they'd be signing their own party's death certificate. As Georgia showed, you can't win without both sides of the R Party (at least as long as the Ds remain unified, which they will so long as Joe Biden holds the presidency....afterwards all bets are off). There was a 5% drop in MAGA turnaround...between that and the loss of R votes in the suburbs, it's enough to turn Georgia blue.

I also point out this wouldn't have happened (wouldn't have been possible) but for the lack of condemnation of the riots in the spring/summer....remember Chris Cuomo: "since when are protests supposed to be polite and peaceful?"

Twitter now deleting Trump. Another escalation. The left wing of the Ds are calling for (and passing around a resolution) for the expulsion from Congress of any member that continues to object to the election results. Won't happen but it's another escalation.
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I agree that the kid gloves approach to BLM iconoclasm helped get us here.

That said, most of us are tired of it and want leaders to help us find a way out. That means decent people need to take a big step towards the middle, as Biden, Sasse, Romney, and Warnock have done.

I don't care if Warnock is far more liberal than I am. He knew we needed a conciliatory moment, and he is trying to give us one.

Far better than those on the fringes who see a fire and reach for the gasoline.
 
dad4 said:
I agree that the kid gloves approach to BLM iconoclasm helped get us here.

That said, most of us are tired of it and want leaders to help us find a way out. That means decent people need to take a big step towards the middle, as Biden, Sasse, Romney, and Warnock have done.

I don't care if Warnock is far more liberal than I am. He knew we needed a conciliatory moment, and he is trying to give us one.

Far better than those on the fringes who see a fire and reach for the gasoline.
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That would have been possible but for the pandemic (but then quite probably Trump would have been reelected). The pandemic (and the debate around policies) however has made that pretty much impossible since neither side really is prepared to compromise on that. The difficulty as well is we have totally torched our civic institutions: health experts, governors, press, pollsters, churches, courts, professional sports, Hollywood, the tech industry, the banks, the police and law enforcement (including CIA and federal agencies), teachers. The only one capable of doing that is Biden, and frankly I'm not sure he has it in him.
 
whatithink said:
Hawley-Cruz have put themselves in that "impossible" position by trying to make some political hay out of this with an eye to 2024. They deserve whatever they get out of it, which is hopefully the end of any presidential aspirations and removal whenever they are up again.

How did the R's ever think it would end well with T? They could have curtailed him from the beginning, but thought they could use him. This was all pretty predictable and certainly more and more so up to the election, when T continually asserted that he could only lose if the Ds cheated and then obv. the toddler tantrums since that the Rs should have shut down at a national level and not thrown their own people in places like Georgia under the bus. Their own behavior just cost them Georgia and the Senate.
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The polls are pretty clear that Trump lost Georgia because the suburban leaning Rs left the Republican Party. The Senators lost Georgia because the MAGA vote dropped 5%. Again, the CW on this is wrong....it's not REALLY about Trump...the anger and frustration on both extremes doesn't deep down having anything to do with him.....the CW thinks Trump is the river......he's not......he's the dam.
 
There is a video circulating on Twitter of the woman who was killed. She tried climbing through a window they had busted and got sniped by (what seems to be,) an officer. Why she thought breaking through a window into the White House was a good idea- who tf knows.
 
Grace T. said:
The polls are pretty clear that Trump lost Georgia because the suburban leaning Rs left the Republican Party. The Senators lost Georgia because the MAGA vote dropped 5%. Again, the CW on this is wrong....it's not REALLY about Trump...the anger and frustration on both extremes doesn't deep down having anything to do with him.....the CW thinks Trump is the river......he's not......he's the dam.
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The 5% is selective though. Using the presidential #s as the base, about 500K fewer people voted which was split pretty evenly between those who voted D vs R last time. So sure, if those MAGAs had come out, then fine ... but if the people who voted for Biden last time all came out, then they still lose. Both GA senators jumped on the T train, which GA had just narrowly rejected, now they are gone too.

Don't tell T it's not about him, his head will explode.
 
Glitterhater said:
There is a video circulating on Twitter of the woman who was killed. She tried climbing through a window they had busted and got sniped by (what seems to be,) an officer. Why she thought breaking through a window into the White House was a good idea- who tf knows.
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Not the WH obv. but yeah - I'm astounded that the police didn't let lose when they started to break in.
 
whatithink said:
Not the WH obv. but yeah - I'm astounded that the police didn't let lose when they started to break in.
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Your last sentence seems to be the million dollar question all over Twitter right now. How it got as far as it did. The scarier thing is that not only our allies were watching, (releasing statements, etc,) but so were our enemies. 2021 is looking like 2020's angrier, uglier, step sibling.
 
whatithink said:
The 5% is selective though. Using the presidential #s as the base, about 500K fewer people voted which was split pretty evenly between those who voted D vs R last time. So sure, if those MAGAs had come out, then fine ... but if the people who voted for Biden last time all came out, then they still lose. Both GA senators jumped on the T train, which GA had just narrowly rejected, now they are gone too.

Don't tell T it's not about him, his head will explode.
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Perdue almost won November outright.
 
whatithink said:
lost of people almost won in Nov, but didn't.
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You miss the point. Something shifted between November-January. That was: 1) the behavior of the President probably stopped the suburban establishment lean Rs who "are tired of it" from changing their mind and supporting the Rs, and 2) some of the MAGA voters stayed home.
 
Glitterhater said:
Your last sentence seems to be the million dollar question all over Twitter right now. How it got as far as it did. The scarier thing is that not only our allies were watching, (releasing statements, etc,) but so were our enemies. 2021 is looking like 2020's angrier, uglier, step sibling.
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yeah,

BLM march in Washington - Capitol steps

1609984162172.png

MAGAs storm Capitol steps were empty and we end up with this

1609984191089.png
 
Grace T. said:
You miss the point. Something shifted between November-January. That was: 1) the behavior of the President probably stopped the suburban establishment lean Rs who "are tired of it" from changing their mind and supporting the Rs, and 2) some of the MAGA voters stayed home.
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Not really, I just made the point that some 500K less people voted vs the presidential election. I accept that MAGA may have reduced by 5% as they are in that 500K, but they are not the whole 500K, i.e. plenty of others who voted for Biden stayed at home. It seems pretty clear that plenty of lean R's switch sides because of T. We knew that since Nov, and both senators doubled down with T and both lost.

The R challenge now is how do they keep the MAGA vote and get the moderate Rs back. The latter won't vote for MAGA candidates (it seems) in state wide elections - see AZ also where Rs were fine locally but have now lost both senate seats and the pres race.

The R & D challenge is how do they change their primary processes to stop the extremes hijacking their parties. The majority of Americans are centrist IMV, some lean right and some left, but the majority are not extreme right or left. The primary process is screwing up functioning government.
 
whatithink said:
yeah,

BLM march in Washington - Capitol steps

View attachment 9868

MAGAs storm Capitol steps were empty and we end up with this

View attachment 9869
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IIUC the difference between the 2 is for the left-protests, the perimeter was established at the steps of the capitol itself. For the right-protests, the perimeter was established on the boundary of the Capitol grounds. (From recorded audio, it's one of the complaints of the MAGA protestors....they were "being kept from the people's house"). They only, however, put up a chain link fence around the Capitol grounds...presumably because they are putting up the inauguration scaffolding and need to maintain access. Traditionally, groups have been allowed to protest on the Capitol grounds and steps....but because of COVID has been restricted (as I've written....none of this happens except from COVID).

Ultimately, BTW, the Speaker of the House is responsible for Capitol security, so if you generally buy into the "buck stop here" argument that's where responsibility for the debacle on the security end of things lie.
 
whatithink said:
The R challenge now is how do they keep the MAGA vote and get the moderate Rs back. The latter won't vote for MAGA candidates (it seems) in state wide elections - see AZ also where Rs were fine locally but have now lost both senate seats and the pres race.

The R & D challenge is how do they change their primary processes to stop the extremes hijacking their parties. The majority of Americans are centrist IMV, some lean right and some left, but the majority are not extreme right or left. The primary process is screwing up functioning government.
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You've answered your own question: the primary system. The Rs can't win generals without both the MAGA and the establishment wings of the Trump coalition. They are in an internal war now, postponed only by Trump's presidency. You saw the beginnings of it in the 2016 primary. California tried opened primaries but it hasn't really seemed to have helped much. The best hope for the establishment is that the populists are sufficiently cowed that they retreat for a while....removing Trump would have the opposite effect and give up the high ground.

BTW, the Democratic senators haven't been in a very unity mood in their speeches against the objectors. Can't say I really blame them....have never seen the Rs so cowed.
 
Grace T. said:
BTW, the Democratic senators haven't been in a very unity mood in their speeches against the objectors. Can't say I really blame them....have never seen the Rs so cowed.
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Of course the Repubs are cowed. Their leader just took the hugely unpopular step of inviting brown shirt wannabes to ransack the capital building.

They have the far left calling them Nazis. So they defend themselves by trying to burn down the Reichstag.
 
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