Why some clubs seem to do better and win more?
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Much of it just comes down to player recruitment. AYSO United has been able to perform well, for example, not necessarily because of the great coaching (most of their coaches only have a year or two club experience at best), but because they have a huge player base from which to recruit. They can pick the best from the 4-8 regions which each AYSO United team covers. Similarly, those fancy clubs with the names on the hoodies everyone recognizes are able to draw the best, and within their talent pool, cull the best into their A teams.
The real question is how to some clubs get teams to overperform based on the available talent, and at what cost (for example, is the coach abusive or terrorizing players, how many practices, what risk of injury). That's just a hard metric to judge because it requires you to evaluate each individual player, all of whom are starting at a different place, and who may also progress differently based on where they are on the growth curve.
The real question is how to some clubs get teams to overperform based on the available talent, and at what cost (for example, is the coach abusive or terrorizing players, how many practices, what risk of injury). That's just a hard metric to judge because it requires you to evaluate each individual player, all of whom are starting at a different place, and who may also progress differently based on where they are on the growth curve.
Clubs that have multiple teams in an age group will often move players from a higher team to a lower team to appear that they are strong across the board.
You’ll see a b or c team with 12 players on the official roster. But 15 or 16 will show up for each game.
The club pass system was designed to let clubs move players around so that it is best for the players development. Very few clubs use it that way.
You’ll see a b or c team with 12 players on the official roster. But 15 or 16 will show up for each game.
The club pass system was designed to let clubs move players around so that it is best for the players development. Very few clubs use it that way.
If all clubs with multiple teams on the same age group did as you've suggested, the only thing that happens is to elevate the competitiveness of those games. Since both teams would have ringers it should balance out.
My observations over the years is that certain clubs have consistently put a winning teams and because of that, they attract better players. It feeds itself. The club has to really screw things up to lose such a trend.
The reputation does really precede in the club soccer community and quickly. Cannot discount better coaching and facilities either. Not all coaching is the same and some clubs execute better training and programs than others. The rub is there are coaches and clubs that ride on their past success and have let the core of what made them successful get a way from them.
In all reality, clubs are no different than any business. There are businesses that excel and those that do not. It should not be a surprise that there are those more successful than others on a consistent basis.
Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
So many reasons and things that go into it.
Bottom line; if you recruit the best players, you will win most of your games. That's not always how it works at pro level (take Real Madrid's 'Galacticos' policy for example) but at youth level, generally the teams with the best individuals will win most of the games. You don't even need a team full of great individuals; often you just need a handful and I see this all the time when watching the more successful teams. They have solid players throughout but usually 3 or 4 really exceptional players who dictate the game and therefore heavily influence the result. The younger the team, the more easily an individual player can influence the game; once players reach High School age, a 'superstar' has less of an influence on the game than the amazing kid playing against 8 year olds who can't even get near him/her.
A team with solid players and a few very good individuals will usually win regardless of the coach (sometimes I'll hear coaches of these teams talking s**t on the sideline and some clearly don't have a great grasp of the game but that doesn't matter, they don't need to 'coach' too much). A team with average/decent players can over-perform if they are coached very well, even though their player pool may not that great. This is why coaching is so important during practice as 'coaching' to influence the outcome of any game is extremely limited/difficult once the game actually starts. Pep Guardiola talked eloquently about this during his time at Bayern Munich and played down his influence on players during the important decision making moments in games (a reporter asked what influence he had on a brilliant goal Bayern scored and he basically said "none, it was nothing to do with me.")
Let me take this chance to do a bit of self-promotion for my club. We have a player pool which is decent but nothing special (we get most of our players from AYSO but don't have the pick of the best ones like United often do) yet we've managed to have 3 solid 'results' seasons so far (although results are certainly not our focus). Win percentages of 64%, 58% and 60% for the past 3 years (which puts us among the top clubs in CSL for win percentages I believe). Yes, we started in bronze but now have half of our teams in silver elite and the other half in silver. More info via this link if you're interested in reading about why a focus on development will always bring about good results in the end. https://www.fcengland.com/news_article/show/970401.
Whenever one of our teams plays against a team who are clearly well coached and who pass and move very well, regardless of whether we win or lose (even more so actually when we lose) I always make a point of talking to the coach (and his/her players) and saying how enjoyable it was to watch them play. I love seeing well-coached teams and would love to find a league/tournament/regular scrimmage (as would many coaches I'm sure) where you could play against these types of teams every week. Coupled with excellent coaching, player development would go through the roof. I think this was the concept or idea behind DA; it just hasn't quite worked out as planned as far as I can gather.
This is spot on. Players, parents (and everyone else) will quickly find out if you are running a below-par program (or a very good one of course).
Again, spot on and everyone knows it happens. It's definitely not what the system was designed for but coaches and clubs will always find ways to 'game' any system.
Teams who can access the best players (via reputation or whatever other means) will always be the ones who consistently win. That's one of the main reasons teams/clubs shouldn't use winning as a barometer for success IMO. That said, 'player development' is difficult to measure objectively and so results are usually the way most people determine which clubs are the 'best'.
Bottom line; if you recruit the best players, you will win most of your games. That's not always how it works at pro level (take Real Madrid's 'Galacticos' policy for example) but at youth level, generally the teams with the best individuals will win most of the games. You don't even need a team full of great individuals; often you just need a handful and I see this all the time when watching the more successful teams. They have solid players throughout but usually 3 or 4 really exceptional players who dictate the game and therefore heavily influence the result. The younger the team, the more easily an individual player can influence the game; once players reach High School age, a 'superstar' has less of an influence on the game than the amazing kid playing against 8 year olds who can't even get near him/her.
A team with solid players and a few very good individuals will usually win regardless of the coach (sometimes I'll hear coaches of these teams talking s**t on the sideline and some clearly don't have a great grasp of the game but that doesn't matter, they don't need to 'coach' too much). A team with average/decent players can over-perform if they are coached very well, even though their player pool may not that great. This is why coaching is so important during practice as 'coaching' to influence the outcome of any game is extremely limited/difficult once the game actually starts. Pep Guardiola talked eloquently about this during his time at Bayern Munich and played down his influence on players during the important decision making moments in games (a reporter asked what influence he had on a brilliant goal Bayern scored and he basically said "none, it was nothing to do with me.")
Let me take this chance to do a bit of self-promotion for my club. We have a player pool which is decent but nothing special (we get most of our players from AYSO but don't have the pick of the best ones like United often do) yet we've managed to have 3 solid 'results' seasons so far (although results are certainly not our focus). Win percentages of 64%, 58% and 60% for the past 3 years (which puts us among the top clubs in CSL for win percentages I believe). Yes, we started in bronze but now have half of our teams in silver elite and the other half in silver. More info via this link if you're interested in reading about why a focus on development will always bring about good results in the end. https://www.fcengland.com/news_article/show/970401.
Whenever one of our teams plays against a team who are clearly well coached and who pass and move very well, regardless of whether we win or lose (even more so actually when we lose) I always make a point of talking to the coach (and his/her players) and saying how enjoyable it was to watch them play. I love seeing well-coached teams and would love to find a league/tournament/regular scrimmage (as would many coaches I'm sure) where you could play against these types of teams every week. Coupled with excellent coaching, player development would go through the roof. I think this was the concept or idea behind DA; it just hasn't quite worked out as planned as far as I can gather.
This is spot on. Players, parents (and everyone else) will quickly find out if you are running a below-par program (or a very good one of course).
Again, spot on and everyone knows it happens. It's definitely not what the system was designed for but coaches and clubs will always find ways to 'game' any system.
Teams who can access the best players (via reputation or whatever other means) will always be the ones who consistently win. That's one of the main reasons teams/clubs shouldn't use winning as a barometer for success IMO. That said, 'player development' is difficult to measure objectively and so results are usually the way most people determine which clubs are the 'best'.
OCsoccerdad7777
SILVER ELITE
There is club reputation like everyone has said but to me coaching is the main reason. And good clubs retain those coaches.
A few type of coaches.
1. coaches who recruit great and will do whatever it takes to get a good record or perform well in tournaments. That often may include "guest" players. They will also play kickball as long as they can win. Doesn't matter to them. Parents want kids on good teams so will go there.
2. Good coach that develops players and play the right way. Parent sees the coaching and will want to go there. Often will result in good records and tournament wins.
3. Coaches who just collect a check. Two practices a week mostly scrimmaging each other. No scrimmages on the weekends with other teams. This is the team that struggles.
A few type of coaches.
1. coaches who recruit great and will do whatever it takes to get a good record or perform well in tournaments. That often may include "guest" players. They will also play kickball as long as they can win. Doesn't matter to them. Parents want kids on good teams so will go there.
2. Good coach that develops players and play the right way. Parent sees the coaching and will want to go there. Often will result in good records and tournament wins.
3. Coaches who just collect a check. Two practices a week mostly scrimmaging each other. No scrimmages on the weekends with other teams. This is the team that struggles.
We’ve been in club soccer for about a year and half and at first we drank the koolaid but soon realized that most flight 1 teams are all about recruiting and less about developing. Most parents want to have their kid in flight 1 even if it means being benched 90% of the season while dishing out $2500 + in fees. With that said many parents continue to fall for the coach schpill of “pathway to ecnl... X amount of girls were chosen for odp... coach has special class license..” yada yada and so they move their kid to one of the flight 1 teams of the club. Ultimately it comes down to what you and your child want out of all of this. Does it make your child happy? Does the coach make your child feel like crap after a game? What do you want your child to take away from sports?
My kid plays rec and club and one thing that they have in common, regardless of the flight level and socioeconomic status, is that parents equate wins with development and opportunities. It’s sad to hear parents complaining of the amount times the team has lost instead of seeing how much they’ve improved since the team started. Eh, it is what it is.
My kid plays rec and club and one thing that they have in common, regardless of the flight level and socioeconomic status, is that parents equate wins with development and opportunities. It’s sad to hear parents complaining of the amount times the team has lost instead of seeing how much they’ve improved since the team started. Eh, it is what it is.
jpeter
PREMIER
I dunno why do the New England patriots always seem make the super bowl?
Leadership and making the right decisions. The right decisions in player personnel and coaching.
Do they have the best players every year? highest rated quarterback? Best Defense? Not that I noticed but they get it done when it counts. Players and coaches that come together & through in crunch time.
Many people prefer the underdog and always pull for for them or would rather see "new" ones in the big game vs the same ole'
As a long life Rams fan I can relate & always pull for my team regardless, been long time coming so going to enjoy the game and journey eitherway.
To me youth soccer is more about the journey than the the designation.
Having kids on both New England Pats and Rams time teams in different stages of their journey has been fun but I think my players have been happier & gotten more out of the "underdog" role vs the favorite. For whatever reason maybe they worked harder, had more to gain than lose, helped out teammates more, or just the joy of accomplishing something that was not expected. The most difficult route to the designation is/was more fun than the easier bypass (joining the existing top team(s), or whatever the case was.
Leadership and making the right decisions. The right decisions in player personnel and coaching.
Do they have the best players every year? highest rated quarterback? Best Defense? Not that I noticed but they get it done when it counts. Players and coaches that come together & through in crunch time.
Many people prefer the underdog and always pull for for them or would rather see "new" ones in the big game vs the same ole'
As a long life Rams fan I can relate & always pull for my team regardless, been long time coming so going to enjoy the game and journey eitherway.
To me youth soccer is more about the journey than the the designation.
Having kids on both New England Pats and Rams time teams in different stages of their journey has been fun but I think my players have been happier & gotten more out of the "underdog" role vs the favorite. For whatever reason maybe they worked harder, had more to gain than lose, helped out teammates more, or just the joy of accomplishing something that was not expected. The most difficult route to the designation is/was more fun than the easier bypass (joining the existing top team(s), or whatever the case was.
In club soccer is all about the marketing presentation of the club. That false perception given to the parents that they are part of an elite club of people that won't give a shit about them once they jump into the next soccer club. Anyhow moving from the cheap marketing that gravitates people to a soccer club.
Here are some of the reasons I find "do better or win more"
- Poach the top players/teams from smaller clubs within the same area.
- Sandbag tournaments to pad their records and their gotsoccer ranking.
- Make a social media circus by bragging their sandbagger victories.
- Their DoC's are charismatic business people wearing tracksuits that understand business first and soccer second.
- Their pathway is better than others.
Here are some of the reasons I find "do better or win more"
- Poach the top players/teams from smaller clubs within the same area.
- Sandbag tournaments to pad their records and their gotsoccer ranking.
- Make a social media circus by bragging their sandbagger victories.
- Their DoC's are charismatic business people wearing tracksuits that understand business first and soccer second.
- Their pathway is better than others.
I mean the bottom line to me is that some clubs/coaches are better at recruiting kids to play for them than others. This is compounded when a team starts winning with these poached players. The former teammates from the poached team then want to go play for the "winning" team. Ask any coach who wins state cup and they will tell you that they are flooded with request tryouts after the tournament.
Everyone's kid has played against a powerhouse before. Lots of times kids don't even live in the city that their club represents, but the parents drive them a great distance to play for this club/coach. Why is that,? Well, lets be honest... There are some clubs/coaches that do a much better job explaining the vision and goals to the parents. Then the parents get to sit back and see if that plan and vision unfold. If it does then typically the parents become the best recruiters for the club because they start reaching out to the other talented kids parents and put them in contact with the coach.
Everyone's kid has played against a powerhouse before. Lots of times kids don't even live in the city that their club represents, but the parents drive them a great distance to play for this club/coach. Why is that,? Well, lets be honest... There are some clubs/coaches that do a much better job explaining the vision and goals to the parents. Then the parents get to sit back and see if that plan and vision unfold. If it does then typically the parents become the best recruiters for the club because they start reaching out to the other talented kids parents and put them in contact with the coach.
Some clubs are relentless recruiters. Their coaches probably spend more time working on their player database than they do on planning a practice session for each week.
They approach players before and after (sometimes during) games. They know which older players have younger siblings coming up.
They have their ear to the ground on coaches that are moving and hit up players from those teams to see who is interested.
And then you have clubs that bring on new coaches that bring entire teams over.
They approach players before and after (sometimes during) games. They know which older players have younger siblings coming up.
They have their ear to the ground on coaches that are moving and hit up players from those teams to see who is interested.
And then you have clubs that bring on new coaches that bring entire teams over.
Prior to the age group change coaches would track players they were interested in. Then find out from their registrar how old they were. Essentially trying to recruit older players in the mixed age groups. I only know this because a coach from another club shared this with me quite a few years ago. Technically registrars were not suppose to do this but did.
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Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
Not a surprise. Some coaches still do this and I suppose I understand why. The older kids are often bigger and faster and because of the relative age effect, they get more opportunities at younger ages and so do actually tend to be the stronger players, generally speaking. That said, I can honestly say I’ve never once looked at a kids birth month when considering them for a team.
I’ve heard of coaches only looking for Jan/Feb birth players; unfortunately they miss the gems born in December who were usually the smallest on their teams and so were forced to develop their technical skills and decision making to compete with bigger kids. Come High School (and after puberty), some of those December gems suddenly look like world beaters (we’ve got one on our B04 team and he’s still small but plays like Iniesta) while the rapid sprinting January kid sees his/her speed influence the game much less
jpeter
PREMIER
Ah I see always wondered how these clubs that we didn't even have any contact with somehow got a ahold of our contact info.
The parking lot apporach after the game was another one, we found out about club soccer about 10yrs ago or so after one of my son's indoor game when he was like 6yrs old, come out to our free training sessions was part of the pitch. Recruiters back then almost seem more common then real scouts are today depending where/who the teams are playing.
Messi>CR7
GOLD
What this means is these teams/coaches will absolutely cut players a year later to make room for the new shining toys (i.e. version 2.0 of your kid). If the parents know this is what they're signing up for, by all means go for it.
I always admire those coaches that take a team from flight 2 to flight 1 over a few years without taking the shortcut of systematically replacing the bottom players.
I used to be of the same mindset as you in terms of building a team over poaching talent. What changed is that I realized it's in the best interest for the top talent to all play with each other. You see it a lot with middle of the road flight 1 teams, they have 1-2 kids with a lot of talent but can never beat the really good teams because their teammates can't receive a ball properly or should really be on flight 2.
If a coach can do it organically than more power to him/team but I am a proponent of top talent playing together, no matter how it happens
That's really the problem with the flight system from a developmental point of view. With the exception of the best of the top flight 1 teams, you have kids playing at levels which they aren't best suited for (for either themselves of their teammates). So you have flight 2 players on flight 1 teams that the coaches have taken to fill up the rosters and which will sacrificed in a heart beat to get that upgrade. You have flight 2 players playing on flight 3 teams who have to jump ship to get the promotion because the team isn't going to make it on their own. The flight system encourages all the poaching/club hopping that parents and coaches hate so much.
I get we need the flights because otherwise you'd be having 1s stomping on 3s 20-0 or more which is disheartening for the 3s and boring/unhelpful for the 1s. But the flaw in the system is that we promote teams, not players. A better developmental system would have each player evaluated and placed on a level that's appropriate for them. It's what United is trying to do, but (at least so far) hasn't had a lot of luck. Some of the larger clubs do that too (though the players and the clubs needs may be in conflict there). It's a difficult thing to put in place so long as we have an open pay or play model.
Agree with all this. I think the best thing a top tier flight 1 team can do is play up in age. The kids will be bigger,faster, stronger and more technical.
TangoCity
GOLD
Have played against one of your teams. They are well coached and play the right way, possession and ball movement over kick ball/direct. I'm sure your teams suffer some losses because of that but in the long run and at older ages those losses will turn into wins as the direct play doesn't work as well.
In general though, I think the teams that have DA and to a lesser extent ECNL have the advantage because many parents and players are chasing the UNWNT and full ride college scholarship dream (nothing wrong with that to a degree) and these clubs at the DA/ECNL age level start to get seen by college coaches to a much higher degree than a non DA/ECNL club/team. A huge recruiting advantage for them.