Why some clubs seem to do better and win more?

[ItsCalledSoccer]

My understanding from talking to people who have been involved in club soccer for many years here is that club soccer used to be like this. To make it onto a ‘top’ team (or even to make it onto any club team), you had to be a very good player, otherwise you just played AYSO. Not sure how accurate that is/was?

I haven't been in soccer long enough to know, however I do know a few people who failed to get into the AYSO Extra team for their regions, and then went to a flight 3 club team. We have been through 7v7 and now into 9v9 and I have yet to see a flight 3 team who I think to myself "These guys would easily win AYSO Extra in South OC". I just hope people aren't paying the regular sums that get banded around to play on flight 3 club, when AYSO Extra is so much cheaper and a better environment for their kids to play the game.

 

[Grace T.]

I haven't been in soccer long enough to know, however I do know a few people who failed to get into the AYSO Extra team for their regions, and then went to a flight 3 club team. We have been through 7v7 and now into 9v9 and I have yet to see a flight 3 team who I think to myself "These guys would easily win AYSO Extra in South OC". I just hope people aren't paying the regular sums that get banded around to play on flight 3 club, when AYSO Extra is so much cheaper and a better environment for their kids to play the game.

The weakness with the Extras program is the same one with the core AYSO-- that it relies on volunteer coaches so you don't really get a chance to shop for the coach (you take what you have in your AYSO area) and that coach is likely to be a parent volunteer (who may or may not know what they are doing, though AYSO's training materials IMHO are better than US Soccer's and AYSO tends to assign the better coaches to Extras, though as a ref I have run into a couple that made me wonder). The United program, for instance, is moving away from volunteer coaches because they feel paying their coaches will make them more accountable (a volunteer can take the position fire me if you don't like what I'm doing). As a ref I can also tell you the "better environment" is dependent also on what attitude the AYSO region imposes on both coaches and the parents (I've had more issues reffing Extras games, than either core or club games...some regions are really good and have zero tolerance, others not so much).

As to performance, Extras has an advantage in that it can pick from among the best of its core program from Extras (though that advantage is being diminished somewhat by the competition from United). It's not true that they are better than all flight 3 teams (my son's experience in the first and second year were that the Extras teams were relatively easy competition), and indeed United is hoping to structure it as a lower level to their United bronze team with each United region offering an experience in at least gold (or silver elite)/silver/bronze. There is a disadvantage in that Extras teams have a coach/team commit only for 1 year and then get completely reshuffled with the best players looking for promotion to United (though that's also the case now for many flight 3 teams) And finally, there is a weakness in the Extras tryout process....the exams in many regions tend to favor fast moving strikers (as opposed to defenders or specialists like CBs or GKs) and allowances get made for politics (for intermediate refs/board members/coordinators/the coach and assistant coach).

 

[Grace T.]

I haven't been in soccer long enough to know, however I do know a few people who failed to get into the AYSO Extra team for their regions, and then went to a flight 3 club team. We have been through 7v7 and now into 9v9 and I have yet to see a flight 3 team who I think to myself "These guys would easily win AYSO Extra in South OC". I just hope people aren't paying the regular sums that get banded around to play on flight 3 club, when AYSO Extra is so much cheaper and a better environment for their kids to play the game.

p.s. here's the exception that proves the rule BTW. Last year when my son was in United their first tournament also involved an Extras team, the core of which this last season became a United team from another region. The Extras team beat them 8-0. When this Extras team became a United team, they tore up several tournaments, being only stopped by the TFA pre-academy team. These kids were superfast and could shoot high and into the corner from outside the 18. But it was some of the ugliest soccer I'd ever seen. Keeper would punt to the mid, where one of the team's core players would just try and out run everyone and shoot from a distance...very little by way of passing, very few skill moves so when they ran into a team that actually perfected the passing game and could run with them, they totally melted.

 

[espola]

p.s. here's the exception that proves the rule BTW. Last year when my son was in United their first tournament also involved an Extras team, the core of which this last season became a United team from another region. The Extras team beat them 8-0. When this Extras team became a United team, they tore up several tournaments, being only stopped by the TFA pre-academy team. These kids were superfast and could shoot high and into the corner from outside the 18. But it was some of the ugliest soccer I'd ever seen. Keeper would punt to the mid, where one of the team's core players would just try and out run everyone and shoot from a distance...very little by way of passing, very few skill moves so when they ran into a team that actually perfected the passing game and could run with them, they totally melted.

Sounds like a team that played according to the rules.

 

[HE>I]

They recruit the top players and have built a brand for their club. All the top players go to these clubs willingly because they are the benchmark. A lot of these clubs have well known coaches that are known for their winning ways. Most of these clubs provide a higher chance to get recognized because of their affiliations with the Academies, ECNL, Colleges, and so on. It’s much easier to win when you have all the best talent and biggest player pool to choose from.

 

[Grace T.]

Sounds like a team that played according to the rules.

You can have your soccer competitive, developmental/professional or accessible to all. Pick 2. Extras is an exam of what it is like when you choose competitive and accessible to all. I see nothing wrong with that. It's a choice. But it is a choice that goes against all the US men's soccer handwringing.

 

[espola]

You can have your soccer competitive, developmental/professional or accessible to all. Pick 2. Extras is an exam of what it is like when you choose competitive and accessible to all. I see nothing wrong with that. It's a choice. But it is a choice that goes against all the US men's soccer handwringing.

The great majority of players will never compete at any higher level than where they are right now. Handwringing about how we are not following the correct development path is meaningless to and for them.

Besides which, playing against a team that plays direct longball is a good exercise for defensive skills.

 

[blam]

Are long crosses just kick ball from the sidelines? Seem like it just becomes a 50 50 ball once it enters the penalty box.

 

[timbuck]

I’ll take a 50/50 ball 8 yards from the goal I’m trying to score in. Cross it 6 times and my team gets on the end of 3 of them?

There are various types of crosses. High in the air. Low. On the ground. Cut back.

Teams should be working on these various options and use cues to play the right one. And off the ball players need to see cues for their positioning. Far post. Near post. On the keeper. Penalty spot. Checking runs.

 

[SocalPapa]

AYSO United has been able to perform well, for example, not necessarily because of the great coaching (most of their coaches only have a year or two club experience at best), but because they have a huge player base from which to recruit. They can pick the best from the 4-8 regions which each AYSO United team covers.

That's not the case for the good G02/G01 AYSO United (aka Pacific Soccer Club) teams I've seen over the last few years. I believe most or all were AYSO Extra teams that converted to club. So the players were from a single region. They would add/replace some girls from time to time, but the new girls were more likely to come from another club than from an AYSO team. To my knowledge AYSO does not have any formal feeder system where players from a specific group of regions are supposed to play for any particular AYSO United team. (Perhaps that system exists for youngers, but I hadn't heard of it.)

Where AYSO does have an advantage, I think, is in its large coaching base. They have a huge number of coaches and every once in a while they strike gold either with an inexperienced coach with unusual talent or with a highly-trained, experienced coach who chooses to coach their kid in the AYSO club soccer system. See, for example: https://www.aysounitedsouthoc.org/Default.aspx?tabid=941852. They can then hitch on to that coach for as long as that person wants to coach with them (typically until the coach's kid ages out).

 

[Grace T.]

. To my knowledge AYSO does not have any formal feeder system where players from a specific group of regions are supposed to play for any particular AYSO United team. (Perhaps that system exists for youngers, but I hadn't heard of it.)

.

The feeder system is more of an aspiration at this point than a practical reality. Part of the issue is that United is organized as separate regions from the local Core/Extras regions. The other issue is tryouts and how they manage them going forward. Finally, that AYSO chapters (including United regions) operate largely as independent agencies with some but not complete oversight from national headquarters.

 

[MakeAPlay]

Everyone thinks their kid belongs 1 flight above where they really do.

I disagree. You must run in some interesting circles. When my player was in club, most people cared about the name on the jersey regardless of whether it was the "A" team or the "D" team. Most have no idea what the path to the YNT or college even looks like. Most don't even know what a decent soccer game looks like. The few that obsess over it are typically sold it by a coach or another parent.

 

[MakeAPlay]

Thanks, I appreciate that. It’s something opponents regularly notice and that’s a pat on the back for the kids more than anything.

You’re spot on. Clubs with DA and ECNL will always have the pick of the top players; that’s understandable.

I think that it is the parents of the top players that have their pick of the clubs not vice versa...

 

[timbuck]

I disagree. You must run in some interesting circles. When my player was in club, most people cared about the name on the jersey regardless of whether it was the "A" team or the "D" team. Most have no idea what the path to the YNT or college even looks like. Most don't even know what a decent soccer game looks like. The few that obsess over it are typically sold it by a coach or another parent.

You’ve got no idea!!! Some day I’ll write a book about it all.

 

[jrcaesar]

When my player was in club, most people cared about the name on the jersey regardless of whether it was the "A" team or the "D" team.

This continues to be partially true, I think, but it's because the D team parents think that their child will be promoted to the A team after a couple seasons (@timbuck makes this point)