ref accountablity .
- Thread starter charlie murphy
- Start date
charlie murphy
SILVER
What are you talking about? gaming circuit ? gaming circuit code of conduct? Are we in NV? Are you in NV? what is a gaming circuit? who is the gaming circuit director?
coachrefparent
GOLD
Who cares about the terminology? I am not using any terms of art. No I'm not in Nevada.
"Gaming circuit" is synonymous with "League" (i.e. SCDSL, CSL, ECNL, DA, Presidio/SDDA, etc.). It is the correct technical term. See, http://www.calsouth.com/downloads/2008CircuitApplication.pdf
coachrefparent
GOLD
No need to apologize, that's exactly what I've been saying.
Surfref
PREMIER
My two cents....the quality of new referee's have decreased since they changed from a 2-day new referee course to an online course. The new referee's just don't seem as knowledgeable and ready for their first games. The other problem is that Grade 7 refs used to have to complete a yearly assessment/evaluation and a physical test (timed distance run and sprints) to advance from Grade 8 to 7 and then yearly to stay at 7. Now all a referee basically has to do to move from Grade 8 to 7 is do a certain number of centers and take some online modules. So, there really is not much difference between a Grade 8 and Grade 7 referee. There are only around 140 Grade 6/State referee's in all of SoCal and some of those only work DA and adult games. Theoretically the State refs should be on the top games, but that does not always happen.
Maybe they're not as technically proficient, but I've been impressed with the few older teen refs we have had this season. They were focused, active and enthusiastic...I'm a sucker for individuals that are enthusiastic about their jobs.
Just a clarification - Are you saying you're not the coach and yet you were present when the kids were checked in, heard that the ref didn't provide the instruction on the rules you desired and then asked, as a regular parent, if the ref could give the kids a run down of the new rules? Or are you just saying you would like them to have done so after hearing your son's description of the check-in with the refs? That sounds like an unusual situation if the former. I've never seen the ref speak with the kids near the sidelines with the parents crowded around and, if it happened like that, I can't imagine any coach would want the parents to speak to the ref during that pre-game check-in period no matter how friendly the tone.
When it comes to 7v7, my practice last week was to explain to the coach and players how the BOL (ball leaves the penalty area, etc.) was being called and answer any questions. I then walked over to the sideline and invited questions from the parents on the rules effecting 7v7 and prefaced it with "I know you have had referees call these 7v7 games a variety of ways over the summer, so feel free to ask me for any clarifications." I find engaging the parents and helping them understand the Laws and Rules makes for a happy sideline and a much more educated spectator that doesn't say stupid stuff. It also makes them much less likely to be jerks to me.
Sounds like a good approach. Was that was done in this case Grace? I literally haven't seen that ever done in almost ten years of doing club soccer (although I have seen refs address parents when a sideline was out of control), including in cases of rule changes like the new rules on headers.
DYS is the keeper and hadn't been given the instruction (coach wasn't sure when we arrived what ref would be doing...he'd had the meeting like everyone else, but as I said, the instructions have been confusing). Given that the tournaments were all called a variety of ways and we've gotten different stories from different refs, I've made it my practice (after one incident over the summer where he had gotten conflicting info from the coach, tournament organizers, and the ref and DYS was reduced to tears by teammates/sidelines/refs/coaches yelling conflicting instructions) to make sure he gets the official deal from the ref on the build out in before go. Given we were 3 minutes away from start, and we still didn't know what he was suppose to do, I asked politely "would you mind ref giving them a quick run down of how you'll call the build out rule". As MWN pointed out, even though I think he called it wrong (and I didn't call him on it til after the game), the ref was kind enough to do it and even if the game was called wrong, because everyone knew in advance what was happening, it avoided an otherwise bad situation. MWN has some real excellent advice there. They shouldn't have to do that, but as I've said, from what I've seen so far, the build out rule roll out is a cluster f.
Thanks. It would indeed be good practice, although, to be fair, the way games are scheduled on most fields doesn't give referees much time to discuss anything with parents before the game starts even if they are inclined to do so. This is especially true if they are refereeing multiple games on the same field, have to get the next game started quickly to avoid running up against the end of the field permit, and that break between games is the only time they have to fill out the match report, get it signed by the coaches/TAs and return their cards, and get something to drink and a bite to eat on a hot day. This is especially true in youngers games when they don't have ARs to help with check-ins.
Hey, that's one of my old referee jokes - if you are going to call the game by your own rules, tell the players about it beforehand.
@Grace T.
Presidio has posted clear guidance: http://www.presidiosoccer.com/documents/7v7-standards-of-play.pdf
SCSDL has expressly referred to the Cal South PDIs and points to this document:
http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Resources/PDIFebruary2017.pdf?rev=B87B
The Cal South PDI and 7v7 document is here: http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Referees/2018/7v7.pdf
The PDI's are relatively clear that Goal Kicks are actual goal kicks (not rolling or throwing) and the "ball is put into play" when it leaves the penalty area. Keeper's cannot punt or drop kick. The ball is put into play when the keeper releases the ball, which 90% of the time also coincides with the ball leaving the penalty box because the GK has moved to the edge of the penalty box.
Last year's allowances are dead. The spirit of the rule is to encourage playing out of the back, as opposed to kicking the stuffing out of the ball and creating a 50/50 chance.
All of that said, expect some changes or clarifications.
Presidio has posted clear guidance: http://www.presidiosoccer.com/documents/7v7-standards-of-play.pdf
SCSDL has expressly referred to the Cal South PDIs and points to this document:
http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Resources/PDIFebruary2017.pdf?rev=B87B
The Cal South PDI and 7v7 document is here: http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Referees/2018/7v7.pdf
The PDI's are relatively clear that Goal Kicks are actual goal kicks (not rolling or throwing) and the "ball is put into play" when it leaves the penalty area. Keeper's cannot punt or drop kick. The ball is put into play when the keeper releases the ball, which 90% of the time also coincides with the ball leaving the penalty box because the GK has moved to the edge of the penalty box.
Last year's allowances are dead. The spirit of the rule is to encourage playing out of the back, as opposed to kicking the stuffing out of the ball and creating a 50/50 chance.
All of that said, expect some changes or clarifications.
I agree, which is another reason why the roll out of the build up line rule has been so bad. It shouldn't be on the refs to do that, but the refs/players/coaches are not on the same page yet. The refs and the printed rules are also not the same page yet.
There are 3 ambiguities in the Cal South document. First it implies the goalkeeper must wait for the build up line to set: "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line, the goalkeeper can pass, throw or roll the ball into play". That contradicts the info some refs have gotten and how some refs are calling it.
Second, it's unclear if the keeper can put it down and kick it for a long ball so long as it's not drop kicked. Maybe "pass" is supposed to equal "kick" but some refs aren't reading it that way.
Third, because of the first ambiguity that I pointed out, it's unclear from the rule if the goalkeeper releases early what players on the unfair side of the build out line can do. One ref told a friend the opposing team can't oppose the ball until he gets over the build out line.
I agree the goalkicks should be goalkicks. I don't know where that ref got it from. The presidio doc is clearer...also addresses the issue of delay.
oh. p.s. the other issue which is going to come up is the 6 second rule. Some of the docs say it shouldn't start until the opponents are behind the line. I actually saw a coach (not our game) for a girls game ask the ref for a 6 second violation from the time the GK had the ball (not from the time the line was set). Don't expect this to come up too often (since its majorly douchey when it comes to 7/8/9 year olds), though I do expect and have already seen some coaches slowing down the reset to the build up line, which if the goalkeeper can't release early, will cause problems.
@Grace T. I agree the Presidio document is clearer and addresses some of the "ambiguities" which really are not ambiguities if one is familiar with the Laws of the Game. Remember, rules for 7v7 are normal FIFA Laws of the Game, except as modified according the 7v7 documents. Thus, Law 12 remains and a player may be cautioned for "delaying a restart" or "fails to respect the required distance on a direct, goal or corner kick." Since getting behind the build out line is mandated, players failing to make a good faith effort to get beyond the BOL are playing in a manner in violation of the modified rules/Law and are either "delaying" "failing to respect the required distance" or engaged in "unsporting behavior" by showing a "lack of respect for the game." In short, the Referee is to apply the modified rules in a manner that enforces the spirit of the rules/Laws.
The Laws give the Referee the tools to enforce the BOL under your circumstances.
First, a team can chose to play when an opponent is failing to respect the required distance. This is already permitted under the laws and guidance and the infraction is ignored. Thus, a 7v7 GK can put the ball back into play quickly before the opponents are behind the BOL. By doing so they take the risk that the opponent may intercept it.
Second, a keeper can pass the ball to a teammate on the otherside of the pitch. Note, you cannot be offside on a goal kick, corner kick or throw-in, but can be offside on all other passes/play. So, as long as the keeper does not punt or drop kick the ball, everything else is fair game.
Third, I believe I answered that above, but it depends on the conduct of the player(s) failing to get back behind the BOL, are they making a good faith effort or are they playing a game in violation of the spirit of the rules. I verbally warn them to make a good faith effort to get back behind the BOL, so as not to delay or be guilty of unsporting behavior. I then watch what action takes place and if I see the infraction had effect on the play, I whistle it dead and if not ... play on.
coachrefparent
GOLD
Soccer and its fans are really unique among main stream sports. I have watched thousands of games among football, baseball, basketball, and golf, from amateur to the pros, with family, friends, and bar-mates. Fans of all those sports are often ignorant of the obscure rules and their nuances, be it the tuck rule, infield fly rule, traveling, or loose impediments; and they understand this when there is a call made. But when such calls come up, most fans of those sports say "hey what did they call there?" Most fans acknowledge that the rules are complicated, and that they don't have a great knowledge of all of them.
Not in soccer. Soccer fan thinks he knows all the rules. Soccer fan thinks that if a call goes against his kid's team, the referee blew the call. Soccer fan (and too many coaches) ignorantly yell at the referee, mis-quoting the LOTG. Soccer fans refuse to follow Mark Twain's advice:
“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt.”