Dirty players

[socalkdg]

Funny story, and remember these are volunteers. In AYSO game this past Saturday, I instructed my girls to kick the ball directly back to my sweeper who then kicks it deep into the corner for one of my sprinting forwards. OK, that is what should happen in my mind, but these girls are rec players and only 11, so either the kick goes down the middle, or my forwards don't run, but that is besides the point.

So she kicks it back. Referee blows his whistle and says to restart as the ball has to go forward. I reminded him about the new rule implemented recently and the training we all just went through. He said, fine, if you want to play by those rules...........

Very funny. My parents got a kick out of it, and I wasn't trying to show him up. He went ahead and let play continue with my sweeper having the ball.

 

[watfly]

Interesting to hear perspectives from both sides of the pitch...as with most things the reality is somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately it does illustrate the great divide that exists between some referees and some parents. Not that I condone certain parent behavior but its really a sign of a less than competent ref that engages in sideline debate with a parent. Nothing positive can come from that interaction. Nice to see that some refs follow the proper protocol and take it up with the Coach...I wish more would do so.

 

[Laced]

I will address two very small topics you brought up as a way to educate since you evidently do not understand the rational.

1) The AR and CR signals on a throw-in, goal kick and corner kick are not as cut and dry as you think. The referees work as a team with the CR being the boss. The one thing a referee team does not want to do on a throw-in is to have the CR pointing north and the AR pointing south. That diminishes the referee teams credibility and confuses the coaches, players and spectators. So when a ball goes out of play over the touch line, the AR should shift the flag to the hand that he thinks the direction of the throw should go and make eye contact with the CR. The CR will observe which hand the AR has the flag, make eye contact and if he agrees signal. Some CR will move their hand out about 6-10 inches from their waist in the direction they think which is a cue to the AR as to which direction the CR thinks the throw should go. If the CR and AR agree than they will both signal in the same direction. If they do not agree, there are little signals the CR and AR can give each other as to what they saw or, as I prefer if I am close enough, just ask "what did you see" or I will say what I saw. In the end, the CR and AR should always signal in the same direction. So, that is why AR's wait to signal. Same basically goes for GK and CK.

2) Something similar happens when the AR sees a foul. The AR makes eye contact with the CR to see if the CR had seen the foul. Then the AR runs through a few internal questions depending on what they saw, "Would the CR call it if he had seen it?", "Is there an advantage possibility the CR is letting play out?", "Is the CR taking a "wait and see" approach to this foul?", "Does the game need the foul called?". All of these questions and possibly some others roll through the AR's head in well less than a second while making eye contact with the CR. Then the CR may give the AR a very slight hand signal that he does not want the foul called. These signals are not standard and a good ref crew will brief them prior to the game. I had a foul occur right in front of me (AR) yesterday that as a CR I would have called, but when I looked at the CR he gave me a slight hand gesture "no" that he did not want it called so I did not call it. Had I raised the flag to call the foul, the CR would have just waved me down and caused players, coaches and spectators to yell at the referee. As a rule of thumb, ARs should not be calling more than 1-2 fouls per half in a 90 minute game. If the AR is making too many calls than there is a problem within the referee crew.

So, hopefully now you have a little better understanding of the CR-AR relationship and that it is not as black and white as it may appear.

Throw is is as black and white as it goes in soccer. Unlike fouls where there's advantage to be considered, or offside where there's judgment as to if a player in offside position is in active play, there's no judgment or discretion involved in throw ins. Don't quite understand why you consider extraneous factors such as refs credibility. According to USSF Guide to Procedures, on throw ins, CR "points in direction of throw-in only if correction or confirmation needed" and AR "drops flag when it is clear that restart and direction are established." Pretty clear that ARs are supposed to signal direction of a throw in. Only when in doubt are ARs supposed to make eye contact with CRs and follow CR's signal. It makes sense because ARs are usually better positioned to see who last touched the ball. And it's one of ARs' primary duties.

LOTG also explicitly states that in "clear situations" "show goal kick or corner kick directly." And "priority for AR."

Where do you get the 1-2 foul cap on ARs? Refs role is to enforce rules. Not make rules.

 

[baldref]

Only when in doubt are ARs supposed to make eye contact with CRs and follow CR's signal.

wrong. try again

 

[Surfref]

Throw is is as black and white as it goes in soccer. Unlike fouls where there's advantage to be considered, or offside where there's judgment as to if a player in offside position is in active play, there's no judgment or discretion involved in throw ins. Don't quite understand why you consider extraneous factors such as refs credibility. According to USSF Guide to Procedures, on throw ins, CR "points in direction of throw-in only if correction or confirmation needed" and AR "drops flag when it is clear that restart and direction are established." Pretty clear that ARs are supposed to signal direction of a throw in. Only when in doubt are ARs supposed to make eye contact with CRs and follow CR's signal. It makes sense because ARs are usually better positioned to see who last touched the ball. And it's one of ARs' primary duties.

LOTG also explicitly states that in "clear situations" "show goal kick or corner kick directly." And "priority for AR."

Where do you get the 1-2 foul cap on ARs? Refs role is to enforce rules. Not make rules.

USSF Guide to Procedures is not a valid document for referees. The AR works for the referee. For instance, if Baldref is th CR and I am the AR and he tells me to not indicate direction on throw-ins or call fouls than I will not indicate direction or call fouls. ARs are there to assist the CR. The excerpt from the LOTG 2016/2017 are below.
Laws of the Game 2016/2017, Law 6, Page 53, First Paragraph:
Other match officials (two assistant referees, fourth official, two additional assistant referees and reserve assistant referee) may be appointed to matches. They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee.

Paragraph 2, First Sentence:
The match officials operate under the direction of the referee.

As for the number of fouls an AR can call during the game, it is sort of a rule of thumb. If you had ever attended advanced referee training such as RPD you would know that. If the AR is calling 4+ fouls in a half that would be a good indication of a referee that is out of position or an inexperienced AR. I recently worked with a fairly new adult AR that flagged fouls on almost every throw-in and corner kick. He was calling every minor/trifling push or jersey grab even though they had no impact on the play. I finally had to tell him to stop calling fouls after his 5th foul all within the first 15 minutes.

Throw-ins are not always an easy black and white call. The ball will often hit a toe, heel, shirt, shorts, hair that the AR may not see and the CR does and vice versa. Offside is one of the easier calls to make for an AR that is positioned properly, especially with the changes to Law 11 over the last few years and in the 2016/2017 LOTG.

These things are not that difficult for referees that attend training, do some LOTG studying, and other education such as watching videos and reading the related explanation on PRO Referee website.

 

[watfly]

Does it strike anyone as funny that a publication by the governing body of soccer in the United States isn't valid but an unwritten "rule of thumb" is?

 

[coachrefparent]

Does it strike anyone as funny that a publication by the governing body of soccer in the United States isn't valid but an unwritten "rule of thumb" is?

Do you mean the USSF Procedures that state?:

Assistant Referee (throw in)
Provides confirming flag signal after referee indicates throw-in decision. If referee makes obvious eye contact to ask for assistance before indicating a decision, uses signal to establish direction which was agreed to in the pre-game conference, and then provides confirming throw-in flag signal after referee indcates (sic) decision.

 

[Laced]

USSF Guide to Procedures is not a valid document for referees. The AR works for the referee. For instance, if Baldref is th CR and I am the AR and he tells me to not indicate direction on throw-ins or call fouls than I will not indicate direction or call fouls. ARs are there to assist the CR. The excerpt from the LOTG 2016/2017 are below.
Laws of the Game 2016/2017, Law 6, Page 53, First Paragraph:
Other match officials (two assistant referees, fourth official, two additional assistant referees and reserve assistant referee) may be appointed to matches. They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee.

Paragraph 2, First Sentence:
The match officials operate under the direction of the referee.

As for the number of fouls an AR can call during the game, it is sort of a rule of thumb. If you had ever attended advanced referee training such as RPD you would know that. If the AR is calling 4+ fouls in a half that would be a good indication of a referee that is out of position or an inexperienced AR. I recently worked with a fairly new adult AR that flagged fouls on almost every throw-in and corner kick. He was calling every minor/trifling push or jersey grab even though they had no impact on the play. I finally had to tell him to stop calling fouls after his 5th foul all within the first 15 minutes.

Throw-ins are not always an easy black and white call. The ball will often hit a toe, heel, shirt, shorts, hair that the AR may not see and the CR does and vice versa. Offside is one of the easier calls to make for an AR that is positioned properly, especially with the changes to Law 11 over the last few years and in the 2016/2017 LOTG.

These things are not that difficult for referees that attend training, do some LOTG studying, and other education such as watching videos and reading the related explanation on PRO Referee website.

Aren't referees certified by USSF? Who exactly is the Guide written for then?

 

[coachrefparent]

Aren't referees certified by USSF? Who exactly is the Guide written for then?

Referees are bound by the LOTG, despite being certified by USSF. Sort of like you get your driver license from the DMV, but must follow the CA Vehicle Code, not the DMV "driver handbook."

And, by the way, the Guide everyone is referring to was published in 2012, and is considered obsolete due to the numerous changes to the LOTG since then.

 

[Laced]

Referees are bound by the LOTG, despite being certified by USSF. Sort of like you get your driver license from the DMV, but must follow the CA Vehicle Code, not the DMV "driver handbook."

And, by the way, the Guide everyone is referring to was published in 2012, and is considered obsolete due to the numerous changes to the LOTG since then.

It's considered obsolete by whom? Which part of LOTG or the new changes does it contradict? If the Guide is obsolete, is a ref's certification obsolete as well according to your logic?

Interpreation of the Laws of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees explicitly states on throw-ins that "When the ball crosses the touch line near to the assistant referee's position, he must make a direct signal to indicate the direction of the throw-in." No where in LOTG or the Guidelines is refs credibility mentioned.

On fouls, LOTG Interpretation of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees explicitly states "The assistant referee must raise his flag when a foul or misconduct is committed in his immediate vicinity or out of the referee's vision." Where's the 1-2 foul cap for ARs?

 

[coachrefparent]

It's considered obsolete by whom?

As far as I know, it is no longer linked nor published by USSF.

Which part of LOTG or the new changes does it contradict? If the Guide is obsolete, is a ref's certification obsolete as well according to your logic?

There have been many changes since 2012, and a list exists as to the obsolete and incorrect interpretations, but I don't have those off-hand. Can post later.

Certifications are given each year based upon continuing education and training on the CURRENT laws. Yes, a 2012 certification of a referee is obsolete.

LOTG explicitly states that the ball passes over the touchline near the AR, "a direct signal should be made to indicate the direction of the throw-in." When it's far from the AR and the AR is in doubt, "the AR msut raise the flag to inform the referee that the all is out of play, make eye contact with the referee and follow the referee's signal." The last quoted section is not stated when it's near the AR and in the absence of doubt.

Correct, sort of. The sections you quote are not laws, but under the "Practical Guidelines" section.
Referees still employ the procedures with eye contact and indication by AR "mirroring" the CR, anytime the direction is not obvious, even if very close to the AR. Especially if there is mutual contact before going out of bounds, or a potential deflection etc. That's just how referees work, and it is not contrary to the LOTG.

On fouls, LOTG Interpretation of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees explicitly states "The assistant referee must raise his flag when a foul or misconduct is committed in his immediate vicinity or out of the referee's vision." Where's the 1-2 foul cap for ARs?

Yes, it says that, but you omitted:
Before signalling for an offence, the AR must determine that:
• the offence was out of the referee’s view or the referee’s view was obstructed
• the referee would not have applied the advantage

The AR must use the “wait and see technique” to allow play to continue and not raise the flag when the team against which an offence has been committed will benefit from the advantage; it is therefore very important for the AR to make eye contact with the referee.

The eye contact and waiting is so that the AR does not raise the flag and incite the players and sidelines, 0n a "call" contrary to the CR's wishes.

 

[Laced]

As far as I know, it is no longer linked nor published by USSF.

There have been many changes since 2012, and a list exists as to the obsolete and incorrect interpretations, but I don't have those off-hand. Can post later.

Certifications are given each year based upon continuing education and training on the CURRENT laws. Yes, a 2012 certification of a referee is obsolete.

Correct, sort of. The sections you quote are not laws, but under the "Practical Guidelines" section.
Referees still employ the procedures with eye contact and indication by AR "mirroring" the CR, anytime the direction is not obvious, even if very close to the AR. Especially if there is mutual contact before going out of bounds, or a potential deflection etc. That's just how referees work, and it is not contrary to the LOTG.

Yes, it says that, but you omitted:
Before signalling for an offence, the AR must determine that:
• the offence was out of the referee’s view or the referee’s view was obstructed
• the referee would not have applied the advantage

The AR must use the “wait and see technique” to allow play to continue and not raise the flag when the team against which an offence has been committed will benefit from the advantage; it is therefore very important for the AR to make eye contact with the referee.

The eye contact and waiting is so that the AR does not raise the flag and incite the players and sidelines, 0n a "call" contrary to the CR's wishes.

I believe the LOTG Guidelines are binding, although I'm just too lazy to look it up. What can be more authoritative than the official interpretations? If you follow the previous posts, the discussion is about when the ball goes out of bounds near the AR, or when the fouls occur near the AR.

All this discussion started when I mentioned that if you were to hold refs to a higher standard. You really have to expect and accept refs mistakes. On the other hand, refs should accept or simply brush off some questioning from players, parents and coaches. As shown by the example in your prior post, some refs are too confrontational or arrogant. That's part of the problem.

 

[baldref]

I believe the LOTG Guidelines are binding, although I'm just too lazy to look it up. What can be more authoritative than the official interpretations? If you follow the previous posts, the discussion is about when the ball goes out of bounds near the AR, or when the fouls occur near the AR.

All this discussion started when I mentioned that if you were to hold refs to a higher standard. You really have to expect and accept refs mistakes. On the other hand, refs should accept or simply brush off some questioning from players, parents and coaches. As shown by the example in your prior post, some refs are too confrontational or arrogant. That's part of the problem.

most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.

just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.

 

[coachrefparent]

I believe the LOTG Guidelines are binding, although I'm just too lazy to look it up. What can be more authoritative than the official interpretations? If you follow the previous posts, the discussion is about when the ball goes out of bounds near the AR, or when the fouls occur near the AR.

All this discussion started when I mentioned that if you were to hold refs to a higher standard. You really have to expect and accept refs mistakes. On the other hand, refs should accept or simply brush off some questioning from players, parents and coaches. As shown by the example in your prior post, some refs are too confrontational or arrogant. That's part of the problem.

I don't think we really disagree, but when those on the sidelines are adament that the AR should immediately call ALL out of bounds directions for balls near them, as opposed to working together with the CR to make the correct call, it is a hopeless situation for the referee crew.

A throw in, really?

And to add, most sideline experts have no idea that plays that occur right at the AR's feet are often the hardest to make when the defense is retreating, and the AR has to watch the offside line some 50 yards across the field.

 

[socalkdg]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. I had always felt that AR's were there to assist the CR, with the offside call being one of the most important parts of their job. It is interesting when a AR seems to be the one in charge and the CR seems to look to that AR frequently. Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.

By the way, this is the same as any sport. I've noticed when my kid played basketball that the parents are much worse with basketball referees, and every umpire is blind when it comes to balls and strikes.

 

[coachrefparent]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. I had always felt that AR's were there to assist the CR, with the offside call being one of the most important parts of their job. It is interesting when a AR seems to be the one in charge and the CR seems to look to that AR frequently. Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.

If you ask 100 referees, 99 will agree with you.

 

[Laced]

most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.

just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.

If we parents cause you so much misery, why do you choose to make

most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.

just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.

If parents cause you so much misery, why ref? If you don't want anyone to ever show you up, start your own business and be your own boss. Or get a job in a graveyard or as a night librarian.

 

[baldref]

If we parents cause you so much misery, why do you choose to make

If parents cause you so much misery, why ref? If you don't want anyone to ever show you up, start your own business and be your own boss. Or get a job in a graveyard or as a night librarian.

parents don't cause me any misery at all. just pointing out you don't really know what you're talking about. end of that story.
i referee because i absolutely love it, and i'm very good at it. there is no better place to watch a high level soccer game than standing in the middle of it. and most of the time, in high level games, i don't have much else to do besides watch. the kids play, and i just make sure they all keep playing. that's about it.....

 

[jrcaesar]

Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.

Here's another (much more likely) possibility: The referee is new to that game level, is struggling, and the AR is trying to mentor the ref through the game. Everyone has to have some first games, even referees.

 

[Unknown]

The bottom line the CR has the last call and the AR are there only to assist the CR.
If only the refs could prevent more injuries by making justified calls, the beautiful game will be beautiful again.

 

[Surfref]

The bottom line the CR has the last call and the AR are there only to assist the CR.
If only the refs could prevent more injuries by making justified calls, the beautiful game will be beautiful again.

I hear this BS about the refs being responsible for players getting injured all the time. Remember referees cannot call the foul until it has occurred. There are other game management tools referees can use but there is still the possibility of players getting injured. I have called some very tight games and some defender still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player. I have also worked games where the game is very clean and few fouls are called and a player still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player. Sure a referee can call the foul and issue a Red card after the foul, but there is no way I or any other referee can stop a foul and subsequent injury from happening. Referees can reduce the likelihood of reckless or dangerous fouls, but will never be able to stop an injury before it happens. Even if referees make every "justified" foul call in a game there are still going to be on and off the ball injuries.

Now, a referee that flat out swallows their whistle is another matter. Referees that do not use the tools at their disposal run the risk of the players taking enforcement into their own hands. This small percentage of referees are the ones that give the rest of the hard working good referees a bad reputation. I know a couple of these types of referees and they tend to be arrogant and do not listen to constructive feedback. You are going to have a few bad apples in every profession. I can also name a few coaches that think they are the worlds greatest coaches, but their teams lose more than they win and their players do not develop and improve.