Dirty players

[mommato2girls]

I will say though there are just as many stories of girls showing outstanding sportsmanship as there are of girls pulling, tugging, hitting etc. At my littles tournament I counted a handful of times were players stopped and helped a player from the other team up. I heard one girl going through the line saying "You guys were awesome!" even though her team lost. I even saw a u9 score on a keeper, watch her melt into tears and run up and give her a quick hug. Now as they get older I think they play more physical but it's also part of strategy. My older ones old coach used to say feel the team out for the first 5 mins. Are they physical, are they fast, good footskills, play bootball? Who do they need to watch out for and mentally adjust their game. While it may not be pretty, part of the learning process is learning to identity those 'beast' players and play around them, speed by them, pass through them etc. We've only been at this for 3 years but I can't believe this type of play is anywhere near common and is more an anomaly than anything.

 

[Laced]

The crazy parents, unscrupulous coaches/clubs and obviously thin skinned holier than thou refs who cannot take constructive criticism without getting all defensive is why I am glad my daughter is almost done with club soccer.

Why else would you be on a soccer forum like the rest of us soccer junkies.

 

[wildcat66]

Why else would you be on a soccer forum like the rest of us soccer junkies.

I use this forum as a way to try to stay informed about the sport. My kids play soccer, I don't. Rarely watch it on TV, don't go to games unless my kids in it and don't really follow it I the media. I am amused as to how serious some of these fellow forum members take this, especially ones who have a kid who is like 9 or 10. They are already looking at college scholarships. Ridiculous. Every time someone has any criticism of any ref, there area couple guys on here that get all defensive and basically call all parents ignorant and unaware of the rules or the complexity of the game to ever make an observation about how perhaps a ref could have made a bad call.

 

[ESPNANALYST]

I use this forum as a way to try to stay informed about the sport. My kids play soccer, I don't. Rarely watch it on TV, don't go to games unless my kids in it and don't really follow it I the media. I am amused as to how serious some of these fellow forum members take this, especially ones who have a kid who is like 9 or 10. They are already looking at college scholarships. Ridiculous. Every time someone has any criticism of any ref, there area couple guys on here that get all defensive and basically call all parents ignorant and unaware of the rules or the complexity of the game to ever make an observation about how perhaps a ref could have made a bad call.

Don't forget the coaches masquerading as parents under false names on the site and the Club Board Members who use it as a way to expand and or defend their brand. They are my favorite!
Close second "Future Parent of Olympian/YNT/Stanford" at 10/11/12. Yawn...

 

[timbuck]

Yeah, but a lot of parents are pretty clueless about the laws and how they are applied.
I've got a friend who has been tossed from a game twice as a spectator. I think the cops even came once. He was really embarrassed but the whole thing and knows he was wrong.
This year, he is reffing AYSO games. He's done a few preseason games so far. His feedback has been:
1. This is pretty difficult.
2. This is pretty fun
3. It's amazing the things you hear parents and coaches say.

His daughter got certified to ref also. He said its helped her understand things on the field better.

Take the class and run a line on a few games. You'll be surprised at how different you'll view parts of the game.

 

[etc1217]

His daughter got certified to ref also. He said its helped her understand things on the field better.

I agree with what timbuck said, my DD has been an AYSO ref since she was 13 and it helped her understand the game much better. So when she does agrue a call with a ref when she plays, she can back it up with the knowledge of what she has learned reffing over the years. Although, she doesn't always agree with the calls, she will respect it and move on. But she as an AR has gotten yelled at by parents for making calls that they didn't like and she felt uncomfortable because she is a kid but she got over it. Let's be real, especially in the older age brackets, the girls know who did what and who should get the call but every one of them will be the "actress/drama queen" on the field to try and get it to go in their favor.

The refs do the best job they can and make the calls they see fit and yes, us - parents, will always yell and disagree but it's all part of the game...it's not an exciting game if there is no drama to talk about afterwards....

 

[jrcaesar]

But she as an AR has gotten yelled at by parents for making calls that they didn't like and she felt uncomfortable because she is a kid but she got over it

AYSO should be the best youth referee training ground to prepare to cross over to doing club games since in theory there is zero tolerance for youth referee abuse by parents while the kids are getting game experience. There is no "Ask Tell Dismiss" when a youth ref is out there, only "Dismiss." Of course it takes other refs and parents to protect and enforce.

 

[timbuck]

Here's the thing -
Refs will make mistakes. Several a game probably. Here are some of the common sideline complaints:
1. Throw in the wrong way - Rarely does this ever impact the game. Count to 5 after a throw-in and the ball gets turned over 90% of the time.
2. Missed offside call - If you were playing an offside trap and they missed it, that stinks. But if it's a run of the mill play and a kid has a step on a defender, your defender got beat. Too bad. Should have marked tighter and made the tackle.
3. Fouls- Do you know what "advantage" is? Is the ref letting it play out to see what happens? Parents scream and yell when contact takes place. Give the ref 2 seconds to get the whistle to his mouth. Also, a foul might get called that doesn't look like much. Stepped on toes, smashed ankles happen quite a bit. Sometimes the ref is looking right at it and sees it. It should be called.
4. "Handball!!!" - This is the most misunderstood law (offside is a close 2nd). Ball to hand or hand to ball. Deliberate or not deliberate? Natural position or made yourself bigger? Protecting your face/genitals or could you get out of the way?

 

[Surfref]

I think the game is getting more physical than tactical. The past San Diego Surf Cup there were three girls with broken legs on that Saturday alone. Refs need to do a better job of controlling the game. Let them play is just an excuse for laziness on their part.

I hear this every year, "The game is getting more Physical" and "Refs do not control the game." The level of play is not more physical and the refs are the same as they have always been. All refs call a slightly different style of game and you are just stuck with the ref that you get.

Here is a little education for all of you non-referees and some of you referees. This past weekend at Blues Cup, while standing in line with another referee to get a couple street tacos, a parent asked us why we call some fouls and not others. He was truly curious, “in football (American) the officials call all the penalties they see, but it seems like the officials in soccer let a lot of penalties go uncalled.” Here is what we told him in a nutshell:

1. Unlike football, soccer is a game that should flow with as few stoppages as possible. A referee may see a foul, but if the player is able to play through the foul and continue on than there is no reason to call the foul and stop the game.

2. What makes you decide to call or not call a foul? At the moment of the foul, I am taking into consideration the level of play, prior fouls up to that point (called and not called), time into the game, position on the field, if the foul reaches the level of a Red or Yellow card, players ability to continue an attack, possibility of injury, and if the game needs the foul called. Than, I wait a second to see what happens that may change my decision and thought process. If the foul needs to be called than I will call it.

3. Not all fouls need to be called. If a defender is shielding a ball that is about to go out for a goal kick and gets pushed, normally there is no reason to call the foul. I will just give the goal kick and have a quick word with the offending player. Now think about this. Does it make more sense to give the team a goal kick six yards from the goal line or award the foul and have them take the kick less than a yard from the goal line. Of course there are times when I may want to call that foul to send a message to the players that those types of fouls are unacceptable.

I always start out calling a tight game since it is easier to lighten up than it is tighten up. Players rarely seem to like it when a referee suddenly starts calling a tight game in the 60th minute after letting things go up until that point. At the older ages and adults, I do listen to the player’s comments and will adjust how I am calling a game based on how the players might be reacting. The last thing I want to have happen is that the players perceive I am letting too much go and take matters into their own hands and start taking each other out. In my DD college game last night the referee was calling a very soft (too soft in my opinion) game despite the comments from the players. About ¾ of the way into the game the players started doing their own enforcement with intentional hard fouls, elbows to ribs, and late hits both in and out of bounds. The referee attempted to reign the players in with about 6-7 fouls called in a 5 minute duration, but it was too late and he ended up giving the other team 2 cautions which had little effect. Had he controlled the game early he would not have had the problems late.

 

[Bananacorner]

Close second "Future Parent of Olympian/YNT/Stanford" at 10/11/12. Yawn...

Ha agree - these are almost always the parents of the kid who matured early/started early puberty, have older siblings who pushed them at the younger ages so they are extra aggressive at a young age, or other such events of early development. They just see their kid effortlessly (without working hard outside of practice) dominate kids their age. Parents don't realize that other kids will catch up, oh yes they will.

 

[ESPNANALYST]

Ha agree - these are almost always the parents of the kid who matured early/started early puberty, have older siblings who pushed them at the younger ages so they are extra aggressive at a young age, or other such events of early development. They just see their kid effortlessly (without working hard outside of practice) dominate kids their age. Parents don't realize that other kids will catch up, oh yes they will.

See you at 15 where they all level out. It's the ones who don't have olders.

 

[Laced]

we definitely disagree on that. and being i've seen hundreds of more games than you, and ran up and down sidelines listening to ridiculous comments for many, many years, i believe i have a better insight on the reality than you.

and you would think that i'm speaking of lower level younger games. but, some of the most clueless and misinformed parents i have ever run across, were ecnl champions league games, surf cup olders games, etc.....
it boggles my mind that these parents have kids that play at the highest levels, and they really have no idea what it is they're watching.

I appreciate your perspective.

A larger sample size doesn't entail better insight, as these comments come from a much larger parent pool. Could comments directed at your compromise your objectivity? None of our parents or coaches has ever been tossed or even warned. But that's not my main point. Or possibly where we see things differently.

Animosity between refs and parents, refs and coaches is toxic and detrimental. The problem lies partially with refs who don't tolerate any level of questioning or dissent. Who take every comment with a defensive mentality and resort to "no more word you'll outta here" every time their judgment is questioned. Who escalate ignorable comments.

There're already penalties and procedures to deal with out-of-line players, parents or coaches. Ejection is always an option. On the other hand, there's no practical and effective recourse against refs' mistakes.

If refs want parents to be quiet as if they were attending an opera, if refs expect perfect behavior from parents, they should hold themselves to higher standard as well. At least to the level of USSF refs that work DA games. Against that standard, too often CRs don't work hard enough to get themselves a better angle and closer to the play. Too often ARs, on simple calls like throw ins wait for CRs before they signal with their flags. ARs don't call fouls often enough when they happen right in front of them. Just today, I heard a DA player say "What the f$#@" about a call, and I respect the CR for not overeacting. If refs expect to accept their mistakes, they should reciprocate.

Given the pool of people willing and able to ref, given their relative meager pay, I expect reasonable mistakes. Given that soccer is relative new and most parents didn't grow up playing the sport, given that sports naturally invoke passion, I also understand why parents voice their dissent and be loud. My observation is that a great majority of parents' behavior and comments are well within reasonable range. I just don't buy it that every ill with youth soccer starts and ends with parents.

Refs' mistakes, even when affecting the outcome of a game, don't concern me. What concerns me is that they stump a player's growth. For example, a player cannot properly learn offside traps when refs call offside incorrectly. If we get rid of the animosity, refs can offer a simple explanation of their calls. We'd remove another obstacle to player development. We'd at least create a healthier environment for the kids to play sports. It is in this context I view parents behavior and refs' mistakes.

 

[baldref]

what a bunch of crap. ref's mistakes stump a player's growth? huh?
"The problem lies partially with refs who don't tolerate any level of questioning or dissent." ..... no problem here. respect the referee, watch your kid's game, and enjoy it. if you choose to rag at the referee, you are at fault, 100%, for any consequences that ensue. you're also embarrassing yourself and your kid. just ask them.

if you choose to live by this attitude you have, might as well stay home. let your player enjoy the game without you making it about yourself and whether or not the referee stumped his/her growth.

 

[mommato2girls]

Jeesh, the only thing I hope to see out of a ref is that they keep our players safe. A refs one call or mistake isnt life changing unless it results in an injury. Yesterday we had a great center ref but our line refs did nothing. The center ref called a foul on a girl who blatantly pushed from the back, no card. Same girl did this 2 more times, similar fouls in front of the line refs and no call. Her coach ended up pulling her, why? I'm not sure but I'm hoping it was bc she saw she was getting frustrated and using physical play as an equalizer. We lost the game, I could care less. My kid had an amazing left footed goal, some calls were missed, some were mistakes. No injuries occurred so it's all good. Just a regular day in the life of a soccer player.

 

[MakeAPlay]

I hear this every year, "The game is getting more Physical" and "Refs do not control the game." The level of play is not more physical and the refs are the same as they have always been. All refs call a slightly different style of game and you are just stuck with the ref that you get.

Here is a little education for all of you non-referees and some of you referees. This past weekend at Blues Cup, while standing in line with another referee to get a couple street tacos, a parent asked us why we call some fouls and not others. He was truly curious, “in football (American) the officials call all the penalties they see, but it seems like the officials in soccer let a lot of penalties go uncalled.” Here is what we told him in a nutshell:

1. Unlike football, soccer is a game that should flow with as few stoppages as possible. A referee may see a foul, but if the player is able to play through the foul and continue on than there is no reason to call the foul and stop the game.

2. What makes you decide to call or not call a foul? At the moment of the foul, I am taking into consideration the level of play, prior fouls up to that point (called and not called), time into the game, position on the field, if the foul reaches the level of a Red or Yellow card, players ability to continue an attack, possibility of injury, and if the game needs the foul called. Than, I wait a second to see what happens that may change my decision and thought process. If the foul needs to be called than I will call it.

3. Not all fouls need to be called. If a defender is shielding a ball that is about to go out for a goal kick and gets pushed, normally there is no reason to call the foul. I will just give the goal kick and have a quick word with the offending player. Now think about this. Does it make more sense to give the team a goal kick six yards from the goal line or award the foul and have them take the kick less than a yard from the goal line. Of course there are times when I may want to call that foul to send a message to the players that those types of fouls are unacceptable.

I always start out calling a tight game since it is easier to lighten up than it is tighten up. Players rarely seem to like it when a referee suddenly starts calling a tight game in the 60th minute after letting things go up until that point. At the older ages and adults, I do listen to the player’s comments and will adjust how I am calling a game based on how the players might be reacting. The last thing I want to have happen is that the players perceive I am letting too much go and take matters into their own hands and start taking each other out. In my DD college game last night the referee was calling a very soft (too soft in my opinion) game despite the comments from the players. About ¾ of the way into the game the players started doing their own enforcement with intentional hard fouls, elbows to ribs, and late hits both in and out of bounds. The referee attempted to reign the players in with about 6-7 fouls called in a 5 minute duration, but it was too late and he ended up giving the other team 2 cautions which had little effect. Had he controlled the game early he would not have had the problems late.

College soccer on the women's side is a tame version of football. Physical yet controlled play is part of the deal. Obviously there is a big difference between violent, dirty play and physical play but to any parents with younger players make no mistake this isn't ballet.

 

[MakeAPlay]

Jeesh, the only thing I hope to see out of a ref is that they keep our players safe. A refs one call or mistake isnt life changing unless it results in an injury. Yesterday we had a great center ref but our line refs did nothing. The center ref called a foul on a girl who blatantly pushed from the back, no card. Same girl did this 2 more times, similar fouls in front of the line refs and no call. Her coach ended up pulling her, why? I'm not sure but I'm hoping it was bc she saw she was getting frustrated and using physical play as an equalizer. We lost the game, I could care less. My kid had an amazing left footed goal, some calls were missed, some were mistakes. No injuries occurred so it's all good. Just a regular day in the life of a soccer player.

I agree. Keep them safe. A ref in my players game on Friday missed a pretty significant call that most definitely made a difference in the game once viewed on the television replay. No worries. In the run of play it was very hard to see since the play happened so fast. We spectators even missed it. All I generally want from a center ref are two things. First protect the players. Second, be consistent. If the ref gives me those two things then I am happy even if they miss a call or two. They are human and personally if I had a buck for every mistake I made then I would have one of those Scrooge McDuck style money bins to swim in!

It's just a game.

 

[whatever]

With all the attention and focus on complaining about bad refs here's a different option: when you watch your kid's game and are impressed with the ref crew - compliment them at the end of the game or put a call in to the league to compliment the crew or if at a tourney walk up to the registration tent and share your compliment for said ref crew. Only a coach can file a complaint against a ref but anyone can file a compliment. Who knows, maybe it will help. It can't hurt.

 

[elephantchowder]

Refs doing the best they can. Can't imagine any ref not wanting to keep the players safe.

 

[Surfref]

......Too often ARs, on simple calls like throw ins wait for CRs before they signal with their flags. ARs don't call fouls often enough when they happen right in front of them....."

I will address two very small topics you brought up as a way to educate since you evidently do not understand the rational.

1) The AR and CR signals on a throw-in, goal kick and corner kick are not as cut and dry as you think. The referees work as a team with the CR being the boss. The one thing a referee team does not want to do on a throw-in is to have the CR pointing north and the AR pointing south. That diminishes the referee teams credibility and confuses the coaches, players and spectators. So when a ball goes out of play over the touch line, the AR should shift the flag to the hand that he thinks the direction of the throw should go and make eye contact with the CR. The CR will observe which hand the AR has the flag, make eye contact and if he agrees signal. Some CR will move their hand out about 6-10 inches from their waist in the direction they think which is a cue to the AR as to which direction the CR thinks the throw should go. If the CR and AR agree than they will both signal in the same direction. If they do not agree, there are little signals the CR and AR can give each other as to what they saw or, as I prefer if I am close enough, just ask "what did you see" or I will say what I saw. In the end, the CR and AR should always signal in the same direction. So, that is why AR's wait to signal. Same basically goes for GK and CK.

2) Something similar happens when the AR sees a foul. The AR makes eye contact with the CR to see if the CR had seen the foul. Then the AR runs through a few internal questions depending on what they saw, "Would the CR call it if he had seen it?", "Is there an advantage possibility the CR is letting play out?", "Is the CR taking a "wait and see" approach to this foul?", "Does the game need the foul called?". All of these questions and possibly some others roll through the AR's head in well less than a second while making eye contact with the CR. Then the CR may give the AR a very slight hand signal that he does not want the foul called. These signals are not standard and a good ref crew will brief them prior to the game. I had a foul occur right in front of me (AR) yesterday that as a CR I would have called, but when I looked at the CR he gave me a slight hand gesture "no" that he did not want it called so I did not call it. Had I raised the flag to call the foul, the CR would have just waved me down and caused players, coaches and spectators to yell at the referee. As a rule of thumb, ARs should not be calling more than 1-2 fouls per half in a 90 minute game. If the AR is making too many calls than there is a problem within the referee crew.

So, hopefully now you have a little better understanding of the CR-AR relationship and that it is not as black and white as it may appear.

 

[Surfref]

College soccer on the women's side is a tame version of football. Physical yet controlled play is part of the deal. Obviously there is a big difference between violent, dirty play and physical play but to any parents with younger players make no mistake this isn't ballet.

After games my DD sometimes refers to college soccer as a rugby match. DD is also a referee and she tends to blame the college refs for letting games get out of hand to the point that the players will take enforcement into their own hands. She had a game last week that was like this. On one play with the ball at my DD feet, the defender had a hold of her collar and was pulling back and down. The referee had a good view of this from about 10 yards away and did not make the call. The next thing that happened was a reminder to me that my little 5'2" daughter is not always nice and sweet. DD sent an elbow into the defenders ribs than a straight arm to her face before the defender let go. No call from the referee. Most of the overly physical nasty play I have seen during college games is in a large part due to the referee not keeping the game under control and allowing the nasty play.