Dirty players

[socalkdg]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. I had always felt that AR's were there to assist the CR, with the offside call being one of the most important parts of their job. It is interesting when a AR seems to be the one in charge and the CR seems to look to that AR frequently. Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.

By the way, this is the same as any sport. I've noticed when my kid played basketball that the parents are much worse with basketball referees, and every umpire is blind when it comes to balls and strikes.

 

[coachrefparent]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. I had always felt that AR's were there to assist the CR, with the offside call being one of the most important parts of their job. It is interesting when a AR seems to be the one in charge and the CR seems to look to that AR frequently. Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.

If you ask 100 referees, 99 will agree with you.

 

[Laced]

most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.

just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.

If we parents cause you so much misery, why do you choose to make

most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.

just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.

If parents cause you so much misery, why ref? If you don't want anyone to ever show you up, start your own business and be your own boss. Or get a job in a graveyard or as a night librarian.

 

[baldref]

If we parents cause you so much misery, why do you choose to make

If parents cause you so much misery, why ref? If you don't want anyone to ever show you up, start your own business and be your own boss. Or get a job in a graveyard or as a night librarian.

parents don't cause me any misery at all. just pointing out you don't really know what you're talking about. end of that story.
i referee because i absolutely love it, and i'm very good at it. there is no better place to watch a high level soccer game than standing in the middle of it. and most of the time, in high level games, i don't have much else to do besides watch. the kids play, and i just make sure they all keep playing. that's about it.....

 

[jrcaesar]

Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.

Here's another (much more likely) possibility: The referee is new to that game level, is struggling, and the AR is trying to mentor the ref through the game. Everyone has to have some first games, even referees.

 

[Unknown]

The bottom line the CR has the last call and the AR are there only to assist the CR.
If only the refs could prevent more injuries by making justified calls, the beautiful game will be beautiful again.

 

[Surfref]

The bottom line the CR has the last call and the AR are there only to assist the CR.
If only the refs could prevent more injuries by making justified calls, the beautiful game will be beautiful again.

I hear this BS about the refs being responsible for players getting injured all the time. Remember referees cannot call the foul until it has occurred. There are other game management tools referees can use but there is still the possibility of players getting injured. I have called some very tight games and some defender still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player. I have also worked games where the game is very clean and few fouls are called and a player still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player. Sure a referee can call the foul and issue a Red card after the foul, but there is no way I or any other referee can stop a foul and subsequent injury from happening. Referees can reduce the likelihood of reckless or dangerous fouls, but will never be able to stop an injury before it happens. Even if referees make every "justified" foul call in a game there are still going to be on and off the ball injuries.

Now, a referee that flat out swallows their whistle is another matter. Referees that do not use the tools at their disposal run the risk of the players taking enforcement into their own hands. This small percentage of referees are the ones that give the rest of the hard working good referees a bad reputation. I know a couple of these types of referees and they tend to be arrogant and do not listen to constructive feedback. You are going to have a few bad apples in every profession. I can also name a few coaches that think they are the worlds greatest coaches, but their teams lose more than they win and their players do not develop and improve.

 

[younothat]

That's what I joke to my boy about, man you're a "dirty burt" Good thing he does his own laundry, he's' getting good at pre-treating the after game dirt/turf stains/marks.

Soccer is a player's game, ref just has some tools after the fact.

If your player is a Striker afterbody is after them, can seem like they don't get as many calls as they should, there are too many rash tackle attempts, or players are "dirty"

My players have been punched or elbowed directly in the face, ribs, back, groin, kicked everywhere, pulled down by their hair, uniform pulled so hard it ripped, and I've seen multiple opponents red carded and suspended x number of games.

Would rather not treat my kids black eye, take them to the dentist, PT, or have to get a new jersey that has been ripped but that's soccer a contact support where some players loose their mind's in the heat of the battle.

 

[espola]

I hear this BS about the refs being responsible for players getting injured all the time. Remember referees cannot call the foul until it has occurred. There are other game management tools referees can use but there is still the possibility of players getting injured. I have called some very tight games and some defender still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player. I have also worked games where the game is very clean and few fouls are called and a player still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player. Sure a referee can call the foul and issue a Red card after the foul, but there is no way I or any other referee can stop a foul and subsequent injury from happening. Referees can reduce the likelihood of reckless or dangerous fouls, but will never be able to stop an injury before it happens. Even if referees make every "justified" foul call in a game there are still going to be on and off the ball injuries.

Now, a referee that flat out swallows their whistle is another matter. Referees that do not use the tools at their disposal run the risk of the players taking enforcement into their own hands. This small percentage of referees are the ones that give the rest of the hard working good referees a bad reputation. I know a couple of these types of referees and they tend to be arrogant and do not listen to constructive feedback. You are going to have a few bad apples in every profession. I can also name a few coaches that think they are the worlds greatest coaches, but their teams lose more than they win and their players do not develop and improve.

I think your first paragraph should have a long talk with your second paragraph.

 

[Surfref]

I think your first paragraph should have a long talk with your second paragraph.

Those whistle swallowing referees do get talked too, but many of them do not listen. The assigners will finally get tired of hearing about them and start to give them fewer and fewer games until they move to a new ref association and assigner. Most good refs know who the bad apples are and try to avoid them.

 

[socalkdg]

During the Olympics I watched Neymar get hit by 5-6 different people in one game(yes I know he has a tendancy to fall easy, but these were solid fouls), resulting in yellow cards for some of them. He could have been injured on any number of plays. Should the referee increase the penalty for each successive player, or does each player seem to get one free shot at him. Has this happened in a youth soccer match?

 

[watfly]

Those whistle swallowing referees do get talked too, but many of them do not listen. The assigners will finally get tired of hearing about them and start to give them fewer and fewer games until they move to a new ref association and assigner. Most good refs know who the bad apples are and try to avoid them.

Good to hear. In the last 4 years I've only once seen a ref swallowing a whistle create a real dangerous player safety situation. It was a "dirty team" that pushed, punched, tripped/pushed from behind, gave the single finger salute a number of times and told an opposing parent to "shut the F up" (BTW these were 8 year olds). Play must of stopped almost a dozen times to tend to injured players. The saddest part is the AR agreed that the CR had let the game get out of control, but said he couldn't do or say anything because of Ref Protocol. Sad that that took precedent over player safety.

 

[socalkdg]

Good to hear. In the last 4 years I've only once seen a ref swallowing a whistle create a real dangerous player safety situation. It was a "dirty team" that pushed, punched, tripped/pushed from behind, gave the single finger salute a number of times and told an opposing parent to "shut the F up" (BTW these were 8 year olds). Play must of stopped almost a dozen times to tend to injured players. The saddest part is the AR agreed that the CR had let the game get out of control, but said he couldn't do or say anything because of Ref Protocol. Sad that that took precedent over player safety.

Not sure a referee could fix this situation. This is a case of these kids parents needing a good smack up side the head.

 

[watfly]

Not sure a referee could fix this situation. This is a case of these kids parents needing a good smack up side the head.

No doubt. The long term fix is for these kids to have some appropriate role models, but the ref could have taken care of the immediate issue. No way of knowing, but I got the sense that maybe the CR was intimidated by the parents (who were equally out of control). It's hard to fathom what these kids will be like when they are 16...that's the saddest part.

 

[Unknown]

CR should use the whistle more often to control the game, so the players know that that CR means business and won't try to get away with fouls. CRS can prevent injuries this way. I have ref some games that a player or two try to test me how easy or hard I will be calling those fouls that they commit. Once they know that I mean business, they won't try to get way with fouls.

 

[Bells]

I have a hard time believing coaches are spending significant time on strategic fouls at U9. Do you have examples of such?

I wouldn't have thought so. But my daughter just played a team that was clearly taught to play dirty. If you played, you know there is a difference between playing physical, people not in control of their bodies, and those that play dirty. These 9 year old girls were trying to injure, pull hair/jerseys, checks/ hits long after the ball was passed, etc. It really took a turn after half time....we had one girl that could dribble half their team..and she was clearly targeted. Normally, you would have a bunch of PKs, free kicks, and eventually some cards.

Unfortunately, the ref was awful. The quality of refs has gone down dramatically due to the shortfall on number of refs after covid..and not sure the leagues can do much about it. So now, we have a lot of refs who never played (and maybe never watched a game) and have no idea what is or isnt a foul. They read a book and passed a test designed for 13 year olds.

In all my years coaching and watching kids play...I have never seen 9 year olds play that dirty...especially on the girls side. Not taking about pushing(which girls that age tend to do a lot) or being physical...or even a revenge foul.. (that happens)...I mean dirty play/ trying to injure.
I do not beleive 9 year old girls play that way without being taught or told to do so.

I'm suggesting it's not being taught. I'm also suggesting that at U9, there really aren't dirty players, just players who may be a bit rougher than others.

To jump on this old thread

I wouldn't have thought so. But my daughter just played a team that was clearly taught to play dirty. There is a difference between playing physical, people not in control of their bodies, and those that play dirty. These 9 year old girls were trying to injure, pull hair/jerseys, hits long after the ball was passed, etc. It really took a turn after half time....we had one girl that could dribble half their team..and she was clearly targeted...and while she finished the game..she was hurt (had cleat marks on her ankles, hair pulled, hit really hard ...like football tackle). Normally, you would have a bunch of PKs, free kicks, and eventually some cards.

Unfortunately, the ref was awful. The quality of refs has gone down dramatically due to the shortfall on number of refs after covid..and not sure the leagues can do much about it. So now, we have a lot of refs who never played (and maybe never watched a game) and have no idea what is or isnt a foul. They read a book and passed a test designed for 13 year olds. But normally that isn't even a problem..bc most little kids don't try to injure the other team.

In all my years coaching and watching kids play...I have never seen 9 year olds play that dirty...especially on the girls side. Not talking about pushing(which girls that age tend to do a lot) or being physical...or even a revenge foul.. (that happens)...I mean overall dirty play/ trying to injure. I do not believe 9 year old girls play that way without being taught or told to do so...especialy not half the team.

I just can't believe parents are ok with this. What are you teaching your kid...if someone is better than you--- don't practice harder..just try to injure the other players so they can't finish the game (ie..cheat.) If my daughter ever played that dirty...I would immediately ask her why..and if told to do so....I would not show up to another game.

 

[sigmabody]

We had a particularly good ref in last year's State Cup, who explicitly told the other team (in the first half of the game) to stop fouling one particular player on our 2011 boys team. They were explicitly targeting the player, presumably because he was the strongest player on our team. After ~5 fouls against this single player, some of which were perceptibly intentional, the ref told them explicitly to stop.

We've had a number of teams with dirty players we've played against, as as 2011 team. Unfortunately, the league (SoCal) doesn't take any actions against the players or clubs, even when they are obviously dirty players, so there's not much incentive to correct the behavior (and it might even be encouraged by some clubs; Legends FC had the most dirty players, iirc).

 

[Karlton Athletic]

Legends FC had the most dirty players, iirc.

We played a final against a 2010 Legends team at the Beach FC tournament last month (at Silverlakes) and 5 of our players had to visit the medical tent during the game, 3 by stretcher. Ref didn't protect us at all. We lost 2-1, dominating when it was a soccer game (first and last 15 minutes), but losing out in the middle 30 when we got dragged down into a Rugby match. That was the game right after the one where Legends were kicked out for cheating which I've mentioned elsewhere, so I'm not impressed, LOL.

 

[Carlsbad7]

We played a final against a 2010 Legends team at the Beach FC tournament last month (at Silverlakes) and 5 of our players had to visit the medical tent during the game, 3 by stretcher. Ref didn't protect us at all. We lost 2-1, dominating when it was a soccer game (first and last 15 minutes), but losing out in the middle 30 when we got dragged down into a Rugby match. That was the game right after the one where Legends were kicked out for cheating which I've mentioned elsewhere, so I'm not impressed, LOL.

We've had similar experiences.

What I've observed is older "latin" male refs tend to let a lot go. I don't know why this is. Maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe they don't care and are just counting down minutes until the game is over.

 

[Grace T.]

We've had similar experiences.

What I've observed is older "latin" male refs tend to let a lot go. I don't know why this is. Maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe they don't care and are just counting down minutes until the game is over.

It's not a cultural thing. It's a different interpretation of the game. The Mexican game takes the trifling exception to the very extreme and physical play (including such fouls) are considered an essential part of the game. You see it in the underletter league under 12 all the time on the boys side whenever you go up against a traditionally latino team. In one Coast game when my kid was U11, the opposing coach was screaming in Spanish "bring them down...put them in the hospital...don't let the f'ers ever get back up" in front of a Latino ref. The ref called the more egregious fouls but otherwise let it go...part of the problem is U12 refs are discouraged from giving cards with even the more egregious fouls.