Entering and leaving the field

[watfly]

In regards to the running clock, it is not uncommon for refs to add time or stop the clock for injuries particularly late in the game. In our last 2 finals this year this has occurred. I was OK with it the first time because my son's team was losing but the second time they were trying to hold on to a one goal lead .

 

[Surfref]

In regards to the running clock, it is not uncommon for refs to add time or stop the clock for injuries particularly late in the game. In our last 2 finals this year this has occurred. I was OK with it the first time because my son's team was losing but the second time they were trying to hold on to a one goal lead .

Referees do not stop the clock in club games, only college and HS stop the clock. In club games the referee, if allowed by gaming rules, can and should add time to the end of each half.

 

[watfly]

Referees do not stop the clock in club games, only college and HS stop the clock. In club games the referee, if allowed by gaming rules, can and should add time to the end of each half.

There not supposed to but they do. There is video from this Sunday of the CR stopping his watch and indicating to his AR's to do the same on an injury. In the other game the Ref might not stop his watch but clearly indicates to our coach that he is adding time. Regardless of whether it was added or stopped both games were runnning clock and went 1.5 minutes over. Not a big deal but it happens.

 

[Surfref]

There not supposed to but they do. There is video from this Sunday of the CR stopping his watch and indicating to his AR's to do the same on an injury. In the other game the Ref might not stop his watch but clearly indicates to our coach that he is adding time. Regardless of whether it was added or stopped both games were runnning clock and went 1.5 minutes over. Not a big deal but it happens.

Usually during semi and finals referees can add time and should even if it was a running clock (no add time) during the bracket games. Most tournaments allow for extra time for semi and final games. Of course there are those poorly run tournaments that do not factor in add time, overtime and KFTM (PK's) for semi and final games. I always liked working the ECNL games because they allotted for plenty of time between games so the referees could add time.

 

[watfly]

Usually during semi and finals referees can add time and should even if it was a running clock (no add time) during the bracket games. Most tournaments allow for extra time for semi and final games. Of course there are those poorly run tournaments that do not factor in add time, overtime and KFTM (PK's) for semi and final games. I always liked working the ECNL games because they allotted for plenty of time between games so the referees could add time.

Yeah, I've typically just seen it in finals. I guess my point is that regardless of the fact that the tournament rules state that its a "running clock" for all games it is not uncommon for refs to add time to a final. Its probably a good idea for the coach to check with the ref beforehand.

 

[coachrefparent]

Usually during semi and finals referees can add time and should even if it was a running clock (no add time) during the bracket games. Most tournaments allow for extra time for semi and final games. Of course there are those poorly run tournaments that do not factor in add time, overtime and KFTM (PK's) for semi and final games. I always liked working the ECNL games because they allotted for plenty of time between games so the referees could add time.

Yes, referees at Dave Shelton this year were complaining that they only had 5 minutes between games to walk to chairs, complete paperwork, drink water, rest, use restroom, walk back to field, and check teams in. And the ref coordinator was yelling at them for being a few minutes behind.

 

[wildcat66]

So if a ref can "up hold the spirit of the game" by not allowing subs when a coach is using it as a delay tactic and the rules are unlimited subs, why then can he not "up hold the spirit of the game" by adding stoppage time. If the tournament director complained I would just refer him to law 5.

 

[coachrefparent]

So if a ref can "up hold the spirit of the game" by not allowing subs when a coach is using it as a delay tactic and the rules are unlimited subs, why then can he not "up hold the spirit of the game" by adding stoppage time[sic: ?]. If the tournament director complained I would just refer him to law 5.

Again, sorry you don't get it. The answer however, is because the local tournament rules alter the LOTG. P.S., the tournament director doesn't give a whit about what you might say to him or her.

Not sure why you keep pushing your agenda that teams should be able to cripple the flow of a game to delay, or if you are just trolling now.

 

[espola]

Again, sorry you don't get it. The answer however, is because the local tournament rules alter the LOTG. P.S., the tournament director doesn't give a whit about what you might say to him or her.

Not sure why you keep pushing your agenda that teams should be able to cripple the flow of a game to delay, or if you are just trolling now.

Unless the tournament changes the rules, it is a legal, logical way to try to win the game. Grow up and live with it.

 

[wildcat66]

Again, sorry you don't get it. The answer however, is because the local tournament rules alter the LOTG. P.S., the tournament director doesn't give a whit about what you might say to him or her.

Not sure why you keep pushing your agenda that teams should be able to cripple the flow of a game to delay, or if you are just trolling now.

I do understand and I think it is a crappy way to win but, it is a legal way to win. The speed limit is 55. If I get pulled over for doing 60 then, well I was speeding. Crappy? yes. But the law. I am by no means a die hard soccer fan. I am my daughter's fan, so I watch soccer. I just think soccer refs have too many cases of making judgement calls rather than following the rule as it is written. Because of the increased used of referee interpretation vice following the rule as it is written there seems to be a lack of consistency in how games are officiated. That is my main complaint.

 

[coachrefparent]

Unless the tournament changes the rules, it is a legal, logical way to try to win the game. Grow up and live with it.

I do understand and I think it is a crappy way to win but, it is a legal way to win. The speed limit is 55. If I get pulled over for doing 60 then, well I was speeding. Crappy? yes. But the law. I am by no means a die hard soccer fan. I am my daughter's fan, so I watch soccer. I just think soccer refs have too many cases of making judgement calls rather than following the rule as it is written. Because of the increased used of referee interpretation vice [vs?] following the rule as it is written there seems to be a lack of consistency in how games are officiated. That is my main complaint.

Of course its legal and "logical" to "try."

Wildcat, again, its hard to follow what you are saying. Your speeding analogy is backwards (you said delay tactic are crappy but legal. You then said getting caught with speeding is crappy but illegal).

What you are again missing is that substitutions are at the referee's discretion. So him denying a requested sub is legal. Its also legal to ask for a sub at any time, but a ref doesn't have to grant it every time. If you would accept this simple fact, you would understand your argument is faulty.

 

[wildcat66]

Perhaps my speeding analogy is backwards..perhaps a better way to put it is if you get pulled over for going 55 in a 55 and ask the cop and he says, well i think that 55 is too fast for this stretch of road and since I am tasked with protecting you ( protecting the spirit of the game) I feel that you shouldn't be driving that fast even though the city or state or whoever is the authority over that road made it 55. If the rule says unlimited subbing unless you are using subbing as a way to stall and disrupt the flow of the game then I would agree. But if it just says unlimited subbing, then i think the ref should follow the rule and allow it wether it is at the beginning of the game, end of the game, whatever the score.

 

[Surfref]

Perhaps my speeding analogy is backwards..perhaps a better way to put it is if you get pulled over for going 55 in a 55 and ask the cop and he says, well i think that 55 is too fast for this stretch of road and since I am tasked with protecting you ( protecting the spirit of the game) I feel that you shouldn't be driving that fast even though the city or state or whoever is the authority over that road made it 55. If the rule says unlimited subbing unless you are using subbing as a way to stall and disrupt the flow of the game then I would agree. But if it just says unlimited subbing, then i think the ref should follow the rule and allow it wether it is at the beginning of the game, end of the game, whatever the score.

Okay, let's address the sub issue. Almost all tournaments and gaming league rules state substitutes are allowed at the referees discretion. Why "I" would not allow a substitution in a youth game: The team not subbing wants to do a quick restart(throw-in, free kick...) and by allowing the sub would disadvantage one team. Or, the coach is subbing, in my opinion, to waste time. So, instead of spending a lot of time issuing one of his players a yellow card, usually a captain, for delaying the game I can just refuse a sub and most coaches get the hint. These are all game management tools that I can use whether subs are limited or unlimited or running clock or add-time allowed.

It isn't as cut and dry as you would like it. Having a bunch of friends that are law enforcement, I know they can write you a ticket if you are driving at or under the speed limit if they think your speed was unsafe for the road conditions. One of my CHP friends told me about a ticket he wrote to a driver that was driving 15 miles below the speed limit in a snow storm. It went to court and the CHP officer won.

 

[wildcat66]

The only way subbing disadvantages if one team is allowed to do it and the other isn't. Both teams are allowed to do it. Why someone who is losing would want to eat time off the clock is not for the ref to decide but they could. In a running clock tournament with unlimited subs it would and has been an effective tool to win. If the ref adds time to compensate then not so much. I get it , traditionally, culturally, soccer is a flowing sport with not a lot of stoppages, but if the rules allow, call it a loophole if you want, the use of stalling tactics to eat time should be allowed. As a ref you don't have to agree with the rule, you simply have to enforce it.

 

[coachrefparent]

Perhaps my speeding analogy is backwards..perhaps a better way to put it is if you get pulled over for going 55 in a 55 and ask the cop and he says, well i think that 55 is too fast for this stretch of road and since I am tasked with protecting you ( protecting the spirit of the game) I feel that you shouldn't be driving that fast even though the city or state or whoever is the authority over that road made it 55. If the rule says unlimited subbing unless you are using subbing as a way to stall and disrupt the flow of the game then I would agree. But if it just says unlimited subbing, then i think the ref should follow the rule and allow it wether it is at the beginning of the game, end of the game, whatever the score.

Now you're on to something. Ironically a cop can give you a ticket in your scenario, because the law, aka vehicle code section 22350 (Basic Speed Law), gives him the discretion to do so.

Just like a referee has the discretion to not allow a sub in your scenario.

I think you may be starting to get it!

 

[coachrefparent]

The only way subbing disadvantages if one team is allowed to do it and the other isn't. Both teams are allowed to do it. Why someone who is losing would want to eat time off the clock is not for the ref to decide but they could. In a running clock tournament with unlimited subs it would and has been an effective tool to win. If the ref adds time to compensate then not so much. I get it , traditionally, culturally, soccer is a flowing sport with not a lot of stoppages, but if the rules allow, call it a loophole if you want, the use of stalling tactics to eat time should be allowed. As a ref you don't have to agree with the rule, you simply have to enforce it.

There is no loophole. The referee has the discretion to deny a sub.

You don't have to like this rule, nor does it matter.

 

[baldref]

The only way subbing disadvantages if one team is allowed to do it and the other isn't. Both teams are allowed to do it. Why someone who is losing would want to eat time off the clock is not for the ref to decide but they could. In a running clock tournament with unlimited subs it would and has been an effective tool to win. If the ref adds time to compensate then not so much. I get it , traditionally, culturally, soccer is a flowing sport with not a lot of stoppages, but if the rules allow, call it a loophole if you want, the use of stalling tactics to eat time should be allowed. As a ref you don't have to agree with the rule, you simply have to enforce it.

we are enforcing the rules. maybe not how you think they should be, but how they are supposed to be enforced. substitutions are allowed at the referee's discretion. we are not necessarily denying anything. we are just not allowing it when it is abusive and detracts from the flow of the game.
From a tournament rules page:
Substitutions:
Unlimited substitutions allowed in all ages group. However, teams may substitute only with the referee’s permission. Substitutes must wait on the sideline (off of the field of play) until the field player has left the field of play and/or the referee has indicated the substitute may enter the field of play. Substitutions are allowed only at the following times (including over-times):

• Substitutions by either Team are allowed at any stoppage of play with the permission of the referee.
  
  
  

again, the rules are specific. only with the referee's permission. split hairs if you like, but it's the way it is

 

[wildcat66]

Do you as refs deny subs in the middle of the half if it disrupts the flow of the game? I have seen numerous times where one team definitely had the momentum and were in the process of attacking. The ball goes out of bounds and they immediately try to get it back into play to continue their attack. The defending coach then requests a sub and the little break has enough of an effect to disrupt their momentum and foil the attack allowing the defensive team to counter...this tactic also disrupts the flow of the game, isn't really keeping with the spirit of the game and is taking up the same amount of time as the sub at the end....never see these requests for sub denied.

 

[Surfref]

Do you as refs deny subs in the middle of the half if it disrupts the flow of the game? I have seen numerous times where one team definitely had the momentum and were in the process of attacking. The ball goes out of bounds and they immediately try to get it back into play to continue their attack. The defending coach then requests a sub and the little break has enough of an effect to disrupt their momentum and foil the attack allowing the defensive team to counter...this tactic also disrupts the flow of the game, isn't really keeping with the spirit of the game and is taking up the same amount of time as the sub at the end....never see these requests for sub denied.

Yes, I do deny subs in the middle of a half. I am fairly certain I stated that in an earlier post. I also do not allow subs if the sub is not up at midfield and ready to go.

 

[baldref]

Do you as refs deny subs in the middle of the half if it disrupts the flow of the game? I have seen numerous times where one team definitely had the momentum and were in the process of attacking. The ball goes out of bounds and they immediately try to get it back into play to continue their attack. The defending coach then requests a sub and the little break has enough of an effect to disrupt their momentum and foil the attack allowing the defensive team to counter...this tactic also disrupts the flow of the game, isn't really keeping with the spirit of the game and is taking up the same amount of time as the sub at the end....never see these requests for sub denied.

Any time during the game, if there is a quick throw in or restart of any kind, and I hear sub sub sub being screamed by the team not in possession, there's a good chance I don't stop that for a sub. If I don't allow it at that point, then it's likely at the next stoppage, because I know the team is asking for a sub, I will allow it