Women's CONCACAF World Cup Qualifying

[GoldenGate]

you must be very small - so angry, so entertaining.

I'm not angry. I love the USWNT. I love the way youth soccer works in the US. I love how girls here have the ability to play soccer at every conceivable level and price point. I love how girls can use soccer to leverage college opportunity and scholarships unlike in every other country in the world. I'm not whining that youth soccer costs what it costs, I'm not whining that the USWNT isn't pretty enough, I'm not the one complaining about how America sucks compared to countries that actually do suck. I'm not complaining about terrible coaching, or corrupt DOCs, or any of that nonsense. It's all you and your friends.

 

[NorCalDad]

It makes perfect sense if you were an "elite" American soccer player back in the day. Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports. They have lived their entire lives with chips on their shoulders, deluding themselves that they were athletes too, but the reality is they couldn't hold a candle to the real athletes who excelled at basketball, football and even baseball. They try to make themselves feel better by rationalizing that soccer is "special" because it requires tremendous skill but other sports don't, and now they carry that delusion forward because they're desperate for their middling level athlete princess to be "elite" too. The reality, however, is that other sports require every bit as much skill as soccer, and the vast majority of boys who played it back in the 1980s would have been in the chess club if soccer had been where the real athletes gravitated. The reality is that the genetic limitations that people like you gifted to your daughters will prevent them from becoming truly elite soccer players no matter how much "technical skill" and "classroom knowledge" they pick up.

You're also never going to realize that men's and women's soccer are two completely different sports, are you? Although the fields are the same size, they are actually significantly larger for women because men are faster and stronger overall. This puts more of a premium on differences in pure athleticism, which is more important on the women's side than the men's and it always will.

Actually my primary sport was baseball. I also don't think there's any truth to this "Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports". Not a single player I played with sought soccer because they couldn't play anything else -- most were multi-sport, some would later go onto MLS in the early days (I played into the early 90s -- but the lions share of my soccer experience was in the 80s).

I get it. You like things are how they are. You don't want to see any change. That's great. I disagree. I think we need to evolve and demand higher quality coaching and the parents/players need to reset their expectations between development and "win-now". Indeed I struggle with the instant gratification of "boot ball". Maybe I'm wrong, but only time will tell.

 

[Happened again]

I'm not angry. I love the USWNT. I love the way youth soccer works in the US. I love how girls here have the ability to play soccer at every conceivable level and price point. I love how girls can use soccer to leverage college opportunity and scholarships unlike in every other country in the world. I'm not whining that youth soccer costs what it costs, I'm not whining that the USWNT isn't pretty enough, I'm not the one complaining about how America sucks compared to countries that actually do suck. I'm not complaining about terrible coaching, or corrupt DOCs, or any of that nonsense. It's all you and your friends.

what you are is a complete idiot. I 100% agree in principle with what you are saying. Doesn't detract from the fact that you are an idiot and the forum clown.

 

[NorCalDad]

This was a timely episode of Coach Cameron's podcast:

 

[outside!]

These Leagues exsit because parents are giving them money. I agree that there is no need for more than one elite league in SoCal, and local play could provide the challenge 95% of the players need. Blaming the leagues is not the solution, it is the parents who participate in the farce. If parents stop placing players in those teams, the leagues go away. There are plenty of play options in SOCAL NPL and Flight 1 teams for everyone. No need for governement oversight of youth soccer.

So you are asking parents to sacrifice the few short years an upper tier player has to train and be seen by scouts in order to somehow bring down the corrupt system that is US youth soccer? it is no coincidence that upper management of ECNL and US Soccer have many people in common. I am not asking for government oversight, but it is obvious that the primary focus of US Soccer right now is making money for a handful of connected individuals instead of producing the best soccer players. CSL had it's problems, but an expanded CSL for all of SoCal would concentrate the best players and in the end produce better soccer players.

 

[GoldenGate]

Actually my primary sport was baseball. I also don't think there's any truth to this "Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports". Not a single player I played with sought soccer because they couldn't play anything else -- most were multi-sport, some would later go onto MLS in the early days (I played into the early 90s -- but the lions share of my soccer experience was in the 80s).

I get it. You like things are how they are. You don't want to see any change. That's great. I disagree. I think we need to evolve and demand higher quality coaching and the parents/players need to reset their expectations between development and "win-now". Indeed I struggle with the instant gratification of "boot ball". Maybe I'm wrong, but only time will tell.

I am a big fan of change and, despite all of your rhetoric, things have changed significantly and are changing constantly with girls soccer. ECNL has developed from nothing into something great, and it has even recently changed some of its format. Girls soccer has gone from a pastime to serious business that includes professional youth coaches providing professional training. Girls soccer has become much stronger in many parts of the country where it used to be crap. GDA came and went. GA came (and will probably go too). HS has gone from a necessity to not-so-much. NIL has recently come into existence. NWSL's CBA has significantly improved standards and (although I personally think it's a terrible idea), they'll even let little kiddies play in the league. The new USSF CBA has further improved standards for women, and the old misogynists who were trying to treat girls soccer as if it were boys soccer were all run out. All of this has allowed the US to stay the best in the world.

Also, despite your assertion that youth coaching isn't good enough, the reality is it is far and away superior to what you see in other countries. You just don't appreciate it because you are too cheap to see the good coaching in action, and also because you don't know what good coaching is and what effective winning soccer looks like. You don't understand that good coaching requires keeping as many talented kids as possible interested in the sport, rather than bleeding the desire to play out of everyone by making them dribble through cones all day, every day.

 

[GoldenGate]

So you are asking parents to sacrifice the few short years an upper tier player has to train and be seen by scouts in order to somehow bring down the corrupt system that is US youth soccer? it is no coincidence that upper management of ECNL and US Soccer have many people in common. I am not asking for government oversight, but it is obvious that the primary focus of US Soccer right now is making money for a handful of connected individuals instead of producing the best soccer players. CSL had it's problems, but an expanded CSL for all of SoCal would concentrate the best players and in the end produce better soccer players.

There is no "system that is US youth soccer". There are a multitude of different platforms at every conceivable price point and which include thousands of independent clubs, agencies, leagues, and schools. It's offensive to the tens of thousands of hard working adults who are involved in youth soccer when people like you denigrate all of them by labeling all of them part of some monolithic system that is rotten to the core.

So who exactly are these handful of "connected individuals" whom US Soccer is spending all its time making money for? And how much money exactly is it making for them? And who exactly at US Soccer is making these "corrupt" decisions? Can you identify the specific people at US Soccer who are responsible for causing all this corruption in youth soccer? Can you even tell us what they're doing that is so "corrupt"?

 

[NorCalDad]

I am a big fan of change and, despite all of your rhetoric, things have changed significantly and are changing constantly with girls soccer. ECNL has developed from nothing into something great, and it has even recently changed some of its format. Girls soccer has gone from a pastime to serious business that includes professional youth coaches providing professional training. Girls soccer has become much stronger in many parts of the country where it used to be crap. GDA came and went. GA came (and will probably go too). HS has gone from a necessity to not-so-much. NIL has recently come into existence. NWSL's CBA has significantly improved standards and (although I personally think it's a terrible idea), they'll even let little kiddies play in the league. The new USSF CBA has further improved standards for women, and the old misogynists who were trying to treat girls soccer as if it were boys soccer were all run out. All of this has allowed the US to stay the best in the world.

Also, despite your assertion that youth coaching isn't good enough, the reality is it is far and away superior to what you see in other countries. You just don't appreciate it because you are too cheap to see the good coaching in action, and also because you don't know what good coaching is and what effective winning soccer looks like. You don't understand that good coaching requires keeping as many talented kids as possible interested in the sport, rather than bleeding the desire to play out of everyone by making them dribble through cones all day, every day.

The things you mention aren't really innovations. Girls soccer was strong in SoCal for as long as I can remember. They had girls club teams back in the early 90s and perhaps even before that (NHB comes to mind). There were just as many girls playing rec/ayso at age 5-7 as boys. High school girls soccer back then was a big deal too. But fair point, perhaps other parts of the country didn't have that. The rest of what you mention really isn't tied to development and in fact just perpetuates the win-now mindset.

I'm too cheap to see good coaching in action? What does that even mean? I've seen good coaching. I've seen coaches that state clearly the goal is development over win-now and they hold the team and themselves accountable to achieve that. This doesn't mean they don't try to win, more often than not they win a lot -- but not at the expense of development by resorting to boot ball. Dribbling through cones all day is precisely what I'm against. That statement alone makes it clear to me you have no idea what you're talking about. Read up on TOVO and other similar methodologies that emphasize decision making / cognition and come back here. After you learn what all that means, go watch a bunch of ECNL U14 or older girls games and tell me how many coaches are actually emphasizing those elements. There aren't many.

 

[GoldenGate]

The things you mention aren't really innovations. Girls soccer was strong in SoCal for as long as I can remember. They had girls club teams back in the early 90s and perhaps even before that (NHB comes to mind). There were just as many girls playing rec/ayso at age 5-7 as boys. High school girls soccer back then was a big deal too. But fair point, perhaps other parts of the country didn't have that. The rest of what you mention really isn't tied to development and in fact just perpetuates the win-now mindset.

I'm too cheap to see good coaching in action? What does that even mean? I've seen good coaching. I've seen coaches that state clearly the goal is development over win-now and they hold the team and themselves accountable to achieve that. This doesn't mean they don't try to win, more often than not they win a lot -- but not at the expense of development by resorting to boot ball. Dribbling through cones all day is precisely what I'm against. That statement alone makes it clear to me you have no idea what you're talking about. Read up on TOVO and other similar methodologies that emphasize decision making / cognition and come back here. After you learn what all that means, go watch a bunch of ECNL U14 or older girls games and tell me how many coaches are actually emphasizing those elements. There aren't many.

Sucker. TOVO is one of many fringe soccer cults that are out to fleece weak-minded "soccer people" like yourself. Its website (much of which is so pathetic that many of the links don't work), is just so great. I mean, little girls totally "need to understand the game like never before", and it is such a blessing that the TOVO Academy will teach it to them using "sound pedagogical principles and based upon profound research into human development". The fact that going to their vaunted academy costs more than 19,000 euros is just so fantastic. If only kiddie soccer for girls in the U.S. could be that expensive, the USWNT would be able to turn around its terrible run of form over the last decade and a half. In fact, TOVO has such a track record of success, that I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to shell out that much coin. It's own website has a testimonial section with a grand total of one girl, who allegedly parlayed the boatload of cash that her parents forked over to gain admission to USD. Wow, that is just so incredible. Can you imagine how much better Macario, Rodman, Smith, Girma and boatloads of others could have been if only they learned from the proprietary training methods one can only get in Spain for 20,000 euros? Maybe they could have also gone to USD.

 

[NorCalDad]

Sucker. TOVO is one of many fringe soccer cults that are out to fleece weak-minded "soccer people" like yourself. Its website (much of which is so pathetic that many of the links don't work), is just so great. I mean, little girls totally "need to understand the game like never before", and it is such a blessing that the TOVO Academy will teach it to them using "sound pedagogical principles and based upon profound research into human development". The fact that going to their vaunted academy costs more than 19,000 euros is just so fantastic. If only kiddie soccer for girls in the U.S. could be that expensive, the USWNT would be able to turn around its terrible run of form over the last decade and a half. In fact, TOVO has such a track record of success, that I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to shell out that much coin. It's own website has a testimonial section with a grand total of one girl, who allegedly parlayed the boatload of cash that her parents forked over to gain admission to USD. Wow, that is just so incredible. Can you imagine how much better Macario, Rodman, Smith, Girma and boatloads of others could have been if only they learned from the proprietary training methods one can only get in Spain for 20,000 euros? Maybe they could have also gone to USD.

Maybe it's you that's too cheap to experience good coaching

You don't have to go to the TOVO Academy/Institute to experience the methodology. They have training programs for coaches (remote and local) that are reasonably priced. Many coaches in the US have done just that (whether or not they implement the methodology is a different question) TOVO isn't the be-end-be-all for soccer training, but it shifts the mindset to focus on decision making and less time on repetitive brain dead drills that a lot, if not most, coaches implement.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to know this as you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you get a chance to watch some games on youtube? Let me know how that goes.

 

[GoldenGate]

Maybe it's you that's too cheap to experience good coaching

You don't have to go to the TOVO Academy/Institute to experience the methodology. They have training programs for coaches (remote and local) that are reasonably priced. Many coaches in the US have done just that (whether or not they implement the methodology is a different question) TOVO isn't the be-end-be-all for soccer training, but it shifts the mindset to focus on decision making and less time on repetitive brain dead drills that a lot, if not most, coaches implement.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to know this as you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you get a chance to watch some games on youtube? Let me know how that goes.

What? So now you're saying many American coaches actually do use this TOVO cult nonsense and other "methodologies" that you approve? So now you're saying that only "a lot" but not all (or most) girls youth coaches are terrible? So are you now admitting that the USofA actually does have the richest, most diverse set of options of any country in the entire world? Then WTF are you complaining about if little girls can get this vaunted TOVO training that will help them get into USD, or they can do something else like what Macario and Girma did to get into Stanford? Or what Trinity Rodman did to just go pro? Or just play for fun, or some combination of fun and comp that doesn't require wasting hours a week learning the "cognitive" aspects of team play that they "need" to make the idiotic decision to be a pro soccer player who makes $30,000 a year instead of going to college?

So, anyway, I take it your daughter spurned full rides from Stanford and UCLA to play for Barca? I mean, if anyone has such superior knowledge of how to turn middling athletes into the best players the world has every seen, it must be you, right?

 

[paytoplay]

Sucker. TOVO is one of many fringe soccer cults that are out to fleece weak-minded "soccer people" like yourself. Its website (much of which is so pathetic that many of the links don't work), is just so great. I mean, little girls totally "need to understand the game like never before", and it is such a blessing that the TOVO Academy will teach it to them using "sound pedagogical principles and based upon profound research into human development". The fact that going to their vaunted academy costs more than 19,000 euros is just so fantastic. If only kiddie soccer for girls in the U.S. could be that expensive, the USWNT would be able to turn around its terrible run of form over the last decade and a half. In fact, TOVO has such a track record of success, that I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to shell out that much coin. It's own website has a testimonial section with a grand total of one girl, who allegedly parlayed the boatload of cash that her parents forked over to gain admission to USD. Wow, that is just so incredible. Can you imagine how much better Macario, Rodman, Smith, Girma and boatloads of others could have been if only they learned from the proprietary training methods one can only get in Spain for 20,000 euros? Maybe they could have also gone to USD.

I agree. What is the pay to play club soccer system in America? It’s one big soccer cult. Full of suckers! Thanks.

 

[MacDre]

@GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position. Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.

Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals. This is not about athleticism or lack there of. This isn’t about access to college. Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals. (emphasis added).

My kid defines bully ball as: players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.

 

[NorCalDad]

What? So now you're saying many American coaches actually do use this TOVO cult nonsense and other "methodologies" that you approve? So now you're saying that only "a lot" but not all (or most) girls youth coaches are terrible? So are you now admitting that the USofA actually does have the richest, most diverse set of options of any country in the entire world? Then WTF are you complaining about if little girls can get this vaunted TOVO training that will help them get into USD, or they can do something else like what Macario and Girma did to get into Stanford? Or what Trinity Rodman did to just go pro? Or just play for fun, or some combination of fun and comp that doesn't require wasting hours a week learning the "cognitive" aspects of team play that they "need" to make the idiotic decision to be a pro soccer player who makes $30,000 a year instead of going to college?

So, anyway, I take it your daughter spurned full rides from Stanford and UCLA to play for Barca? I mean, if anyone has such superior knowledge of how to turn middling athletes into the best players the world has every seen, it must be you, right?

Your writing skills are amazing. Reading comprehension, on the other hand, needs some work.

I bet if you look at the bios of coaches at various clubs you will eventually find one with something like "TOVO Academy Coaching Course Certificate". It will be right after any USSF or UEFA accreditations a coach might have. To be clear "many" does not equal "most" or "all". Also, as I said, I have no idea if coaches that received said certificate actually put that training to use. The spin cycle we're in might just make that too difficult to do.

 

[NorCalDad]

@GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position. Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.

Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals. This is not about athleticism or lack there of. This isn’t about access to college. Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals. (emphasis added).

My kid defines bully ball as: players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.

Thanks @MacDre -- you said it much more succinctly than I ever could.

 

[outside!]

There is no "system that is US youth soccer". There are a multitude of different platforms at every conceivable price point and which include thousands of independent clubs, agencies, leagues, and schools. It's offensive to the tens of thousands of hard working adults who are involved in youth soccer when people like you denigrate all of them by labeling all of them part of some monolithic system that is rotten to the core.

So who exactly are these handful of "connected individuals" whom US Soccer is spending all its time making money for? And how much money exactly is it making for them? And who exactly at US Soccer is making these "corrupt" decisions? Can you identify the specific people at US Soccer who are responsible for causing all this corruption in youth soccer? Can you even tell us what they're doing that is so "corrupt"?

I am guessing you either haven't been around long or weren't paying attention during the formation of ECNL and it's exclusionary tactics, the conflicts between US Club Soccer and USYS, the birth and death of DA or how individuals high up in ECNL became high up in USYS to oversee the death of DA (not that I was a fan of DA). The facts are that upper level youth soccer is monopolistic and forces unnecessary travel costs on families and by doing so excludes potentially high level players. CSL Premier was a better system and I believe would produce a larger quantity of high level female soccer players.

 

[crush]

It's time to just lay it all out today. We need a new league in Socal. I would call it, "Southern California Possession League." SCPL is for players who want to learn the game the right way. Somehow Bullyball, Smashball and Kickball took over and I know why. We would have best the best and girls would be safe and learn how to play the game. The rest of the best can go play in the Elite Club National League and travel all over the country. I see a light at the end of the tunnel. Gr8t stuff @MacDre. I see you bro

 

[GoldenGate]

I am guessing you either haven't been around long or weren't paying attention during the formation of ECNL and it's exclusionary tactics, the conflicts between US Club Soccer and USYS, the birth and death of DA or how individuals high up in ECNL became high up in USYS to oversee the death of DA (not that I was a fan of DA). The facts are that upper level youth soccer is monopolistic and forces unnecessary travel costs on families and by doing so excludes potentially high level players. CSL Premier was a better system and I believe would produce a larger quantity of high level female soccer players.

You have not identified a single corrupt anything by anyone. You also don't understand what a monopoly is. You also seem to fail to understand that no one is forcing anything on you. All you're doing is whining that you can't have everything you want without having to pay what it costs to have it. If the CSL Premier that you loved so much were a better system, it would be the better system. Instead, it was a cheap ass structure that suppressed the ability of the best youth clubs to hire and retain quality professional coaches, which also suppressed the ability of parents to maximize their kid's soccer ability to leverage into college opportunity. But no fear, the cheap-ass local leagues you love still exist, so you have nothing to worry about - other than the best and most committed families and coaches no longer continue propping up the riff raff.

 

[LASTMAN14]

@GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position. Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.

Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals. This is not about athleticism or lack there of. This isn’t about access to college. Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals. (emphasis added).

My kid defines bully ball as: players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.

You can add lack of creativity and usage of IQ.

 

[GoldenGate]

@GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position. Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.

Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals. This is not about athleticism or lack there of. This isn’t about access to college. Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals. (emphasis added).

My kid defines bully ball as: players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.

No, I understand quite well what he is saying. This whole idea that girls kiddie soccer is rampant with "bully ball" and lacking in fundamentals compared to other countries is utter nonsense. There are far more youth clubs in the US than anywhere else in the world that are committed to high level development of players. Seriously, there isn't a single person here who has been able to name a single foreign youth girls coach in the entire world who is better than any of a number of coaches here. I doubt they can even name two youth clubs in the entire country of Spain that aren't shit compared to probably 30 clubs in the US. They all live in a fantasyland in which they think European countries are a utopia for excellence in youth soccer, because they don't see what any of it is really like. They whine about pay to play but have nothing to say when they learn that TOVO costs 20,000 euros, and girls youth academies actually cost 16,000 euros. They have nothing to say when they learn that there are a grand total of maybe twenty 20-year old Spanish women playing competitive soccer, but 10,000 American women.

The truth is there will always be little girls who attack a player instead of the ball, or shoulder barge, or push with both hands. This will happen everywhere in the world where kiddie soccer is played, including where this TOVO nonsense exists. The reason is that soccer is - and should be - accessible at all levels. Especially at lower levels, you will always have players who don't share the same sensibilities as the soccer cheapskates here who want everyone to play "beautiful" soccer but don't want to pay what it costs. The other truth is that "bully soccer", as these emotionally soft people characterize it, is not a real problem in elite youth girls soccer. Occasionally kids get crunched, and that is life playing sports. If you want to bubble wrap your kid, go for it. But if they're whining that Macario cleaned their daughter's clock, or Blues punished their kid's team physically, or Rodman "mugged" their little princess of the ball, too bad. That isn't a bullying, it isn't a lack of development, it is only tough and effective soccer. If their kids can't take it, they can go ahead and play like the Spanish losers who constantly get bullied on set pieces by real "technical" players who understand that taking advantage of their physical ability is far more important than passing the ball around until everyone gets bored to death.

 

[GoldenGate]

Maybe it's you that's too cheap to experience good coaching

You don't have to go to the TOVO Academy/Institute to experience the methodology. They have training programs for coaches (remote and local) that are reasonably priced. Many coaches in the US have done just that (whether or not they implement the methodology is a different question) TOVO isn't the be-end-be-all for soccer training, but it shifts the mindset to focus on decision making and less time on repetitive brain dead drills that a lot, if not most, coaches implement.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to know this as you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you get a chance to watch some games on youtube? Let me know how that goes.

Yes, I watched a few games on youtube. Specifically, the USWNT beating the shit out of just about everyone they have played over the course of a decade. Also watched Spain gets its ass handed to it by England and Germany.

When do you think the girls youth soccer utopia of Spain will finally capitalize on the TOVO training - that its army of youth coaches each paid 5,000 euros for - with its first ever knockout stage win in a tournament? There is no better way to prove the effectiveness of a training program than results, right? If only American youth soccer coaches could teach skills like how to repeatedly fail on set pieces and in the air, how to repeatedly turn the ball over after boring everyone to death with 20 useless ineffective passes around the back, and how to take the alpha out of the player.

If only meanies like Ertz, and Horan, and Lloyd, and Mewis, and Sauerbrunn, and Dahlkemper, and Macario, and Rodman, and Press, and Morgan, and Rapinoe would just play more polite "beautiful" soccer instead of using their superior athletic ability to actually get things done. If only we could take away their will to win by subjecting them to 17 modules of online TOVO at $2,000 a pop.